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So what do my fellow Heresy players think are any possible overpowered Legion rules? I hear all the time (and agree) that 30k is so much more balanced than 40k. However, I've had discussions with a few friends and they seem to believe that the balance tips a bit more in favor of the Loyalist legions. What do you think? What's OP and what would you propose to replace it with?

1) 30k has had some minor power creep: newer legions tend to be slightly better (this is why older legions got a LOT more changes in the new red book than the newer ones)
2) loyalist legions tend to be a bit newer
3) the only legion I would currently classify as OP inatley is Blood Angels since at the moment they have access to a model that can, without any restriction, kill anything that is T: 6 or weaker, as soon as it gets into range. however, most of the BA's OP is due to poorly worded rules and/or things that are taken to the extreme (any heavy flamer can be an assault cannon can lead to some smelly cheese)

4) Every legion has the ability to get pretty damn strong (power combo's and the like)

I won't be the first or last person to say this: but outside of certain cases, the only real "OP" things are available to everyone, not just a legion. Are some legions stronger than others? Yes. Does that mean that they are OP? No. Point in case: DG can create some of the meanest damned lists in the game, and still have it be fluffy. Are DG OP? Nope, can they be cheesed? Yup, and so can everything

I will say that 90% of the things that are gonna be called OP in this thread are more likely to be things that that player has issue dealing with. That's not an insult, it's more or less the nature of the game.


P.S. Traitors, as a whole, seem much stronger than the loyalists, as they should

Of course 30K is more balanced. It's the same army fighting with minor rule changes. The writers would have made a huge mistake if it wasn't balanced.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Of course 30K is more balanced. It's the same army fighting with minor rule changes. The writers would have made a huge mistake if it wasn't balanced.

You know, you're right. I love being able to take Legion things in my Mechanicum detachment. he said with the bitterest of sarcasm.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Of course 30K is more balanced. It's the same army fighting with minor rule changes. The writers would have made a huge mistake if it wasn't balanced.

WOO! This stupid comment (no offense)

Mechanicum (Cybernetica, Ordinatus/Reductor, Thagmata, and Titan Legions ) laugh at your comment
Daemons laugh at your comment
Solar Auxilia laugh at your comment
Imperial militia and cults laugh at your comment
Questoris Knights laugh at your comment
Black shields laugh at your comment
the 18 legions laugh at your comment (since most of them have rather extremely different play styles, not all, but most)

ALSO:

Orks, Eldar (all 4 kinds), and Necrons chuckle, since they too were around in 30k, and can play once they ditch their formations.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Of course 30K is more balanced. It's the same army fighting with minor rule changes. The writers would have made a huge mistake if it wasn't balanced.

Yeah, right....
My Mechanicum doesn`t agree to that.

On topic; Sons of Horus and Night Lords are in the running for most powerful army. Riding the Ironfire is as close as I can think to get for an "op" list (but I love playing it so I may be biased )

I've never played anyone other than space marines when playing 30k. Great that other people do, but the group I'm with loves their characters an Primarchs.

(Never mind, haven't seen enough of the newer rules to comments meaningfully)

 Swampmist wrote:
On topic; Sons of Horus and Night Lords are in the running for most powerful army. Riding the Ironfire is as close as I can think to get for an "op" list (but I love playing it so I may be biased )

Ehhhhh, kinda sorta. They both have points where they shine, however, they are both manageable, so that wouldn't make them op. DG laugh their asses off at most Night Lords shenanigans (as do UM and WB) And Sons of Horus don't sream 'OP' as their strongest buff is basically 1) a few extra attacks, and 2) BS 5 at closer ranges

DG are the hard counter to the NL, yes (they still hit and wound on 3s though :p) SoH are more because of drop-pod spam combined with reserve manipulation and having good special units (2W terminators are scary as all hell.)

 Swampmist wrote:
DG are the hard counter to the NL, yes (they still hit and wound on 3s though :p) SoH are more because of drop-pod spam combined with reserve manipulation and having good special units (2W terminators are scary as all hell.)

I still say DG did 2-wound terminators better

Honestly, I think DG can make some of the scariest cheese in 30k (and still be fluffy ), but I wouldn't but them down as OP, mostly because it's not inherently OP unless the player tries to make them that way.

Ironfire from the IW is the same way tbh. Though, they kinda need to go all in to keep the theme, so that can be an issue. With only so many barrage weapons available. The ThuddGun spam becomes mighty tempting...

I would say most of the legions are roughly balanced some are slightly better than others for special rules but not massively.

From looking at special rules would say loyalists lean towards having some of the better all round specials but others seem to think the other way.

The main differences are in what special weapons and special units they have access to, an basically the ability to spam some of the special units can border on the cheese factor for some legions methinks.

DG were crap before the new updates and IMO all the newer updates did was make them competitive again. You can look at many of the other legions and see their special melee weapon is as good or better than the scythes, and gets hot/shred flamers are no better than the salamanders special rule with flamers really.....so dont really feel DG are OP IMO.

The Gravewardens are prolly the best thing the DG have going for them when you look at the points for what you get. As they are basically same points as a basic terminator unit with a load of special rules/better weapons.

In my local area, Emperors Children reign king. Sonic Shriekers... just disgusting.

I don't think any legion is really OP, all have some trics.

Surprised peole think sons or.night lords, there buffs seem a bit mediocre

Iron hands and imperial fists have pretty excellent blanket bonuses

Night lords combine fast movement with good melee (Chainglaives, +1 hit and wound if they outnumber in melee) and can do shooting pretty well through mass vulkite (Terror assault is scary.) Sons have two very good RoW, two very good special units and inbuilt reserve manipulation. Now, pretty much every legion can pull of some op gak (and be perfectly fluffy ((thanks fw ))) But NL especially have to try very little to get it. Though, I also think that White Scars are fething NUTS, with a ton of benefits for little to no restrictions, but that seems to just be me .

Hm I think they're good yes, but points add up, it's not OP. Just good at it's job and can be countered. I think the IH one its much better. But also not op. Nothing in 30k really is.


Infiltrating castellax are obnoxious tough

 Swampmist wrote:
Night lords combine fast movement with good melee (Chainglaives, +1 hit and wound if they outnumber in melee) and can do shooting pretty well through mass vulkite (Terror assault is scary.) Sons have two very good RoW, two very good special units and inbuilt reserve manipulation. Now, pretty much every legion can pull of some op gak (and be perfectly fluffy ((thanks fw ))) But NL especially have to try very little to get it. Though, I also think that White Scars are fething NUTS, with a ton of benefits for little to no restrictions, but that seems to just be me .

Those make them good, not OP. points in case:
NL:
1) Chainglaives make me sad, because they are so 'meh' compared to other legion's special weapons
2) the bonuses for outnumbering are nice, but easily lost
3) massed volkite is good, and stupidly expensive
4) A decent amount of shooting + the ability to intercept (stupidly cheap for 30k legions) shuts down many of their tactics

SoH:
1) their RoW are good, but not game breaking or OP
2) 'very good special units' a buffed up, expensive tactical marine, or a Cataphractii terminator with +1 wound and WS (something many legions have better or similar)


White scars make me sad as they just seem to 'meh' compared to the poorly written, yet stupidly strong Blood Angels, or the very solid Dark Angels :(

White scars glaives are very good special weapons---really one of the best of all the legions---

AP 2 or AP 3 your choice for no real drawbacks is pretty awesome.

At least among our group people actually think DA are kinda meh in comparison to the other legions and i would kinda agree- as their special ability when combined with stasis grenades---means no real benefit gained from one of the rules...so it causes a lack of synergy..not to mention most other legions get their specials on vehicles weapons as well and the heavy bolter acid rounds arent allowed on vehicles for some reason----so a couple small changes and DA would be good but right now are pretty subpar.

I dont usually factor in Rights of War as the legions should be balanced based on just the special rules/weapons since a master of the legion isnt required. Not to mention most RoW have some type of drawback.

Statis Grenades are for use against other Legion's more elite WS 5 units to drop them to WS 4, and as such synergise better with their rules than you're implying.

You go from hitting on a 4+ and them hitting on a 3+ to the other way around as well as also striking before them (or at the same time in a worse case scenario) with non-unwieldy weapons, which is real nice.

They aren't OP by any means, but you are cutting them a bit short.

BA in all honesty due to their not clear rules allowing for some strange things that may or may not get FAQ'd soon like the nucelar Flame Pistol, Assault Cannon on DCCW, ect

With the BA moritat I can see one of two things happening.
1: They straight up say No: Possible, but not like forgeworld
2: The give the hand flamers Gets Hot when chain firing

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
With the BA moritat I can see one of two things happening.
1: They straight up say No: Possible, but not like forgeworld
2: The give the hand flamers Gets Hot when chain firing

2 seems like the most reasonable fix, truth be told. kinda hard to continually fire a flame thrower without it going boom

More like OP units then Legions:
Quad Mortars and Scorpius are down right mean when spammed.

Or one side having a LoW/Primarch and the other dose not.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Statis Grenades are for use against other Legion's more elite WS 5 units to drop them to WS 4, and as such synergise better with their rules than you're implying.

You go from hitting on a 4+ and them hitting on a 3+ to the other way around as well as also striking before them (or at the same time in a worse case scenario) with non-unwieldy weapons, which is real nice.

They aren't OP by any means, but you are cutting them a bit short.

Except you want AP2 for elites, so you'd be better off using Axes and trading +1 to hit for +1 to wound and ignore armour. Stasis grenades are good, but not for elite hunting. They make going after troops and HQs a better choice. DA have some weird interactions, and probably sit lower then most other legions in power.

That being said, nothing really screams OP or terrible.

Chainglaives are awesome. AP 3, +1 str and rending for the same cost as a power sword (iirc)? Totally worth it, especially because when outnumbering with it the NL are wounding on 2s.

I'm surprised people haven't said Alpha legion yet. Army wide Infiltrate and Preferred Enemy? Brutal.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I'm surprised people haven't said Alpha legion yet. Army wide Infiltrate and Preferred Enemy? Brutal.

Yeah, but you need a primarch for PE, and you don't get to use his coolest rule if you do. Also, Headhunters just got nerfed which doesn't help their situation any. They get to Raiderspam and have infiltrating Fulmentaris though, so they're pretty good, it just takes more work to make them scary

Especially after the updates in the Legions book, I think any Legion has a chance against any other, generally speaking. I don't think anyone would put WE near the top of the list, but if I can maneuver the game to be on my terms -- getting off charges, in close combat, creating a scrum, etc. -- I like my chances.

Like others have said, I think a more valid discussion is about OP units, especially those in the CAL.