Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:

daveh974 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeah 1100 points could get you a FT detachment of 2 lv2 furilibbies with flamers in pods, 3 fragiosos in pods, and Cassor in a pod. Good launching point for adding in skyhammer or 1st company podded sterns.

You could also do a Archangels Sanguine Wing. Lots of free upgrades.

I am suddenly reminded of the fact I wish that the Librarian Furioso could replace their arm with a Frag Cannon. They already lose out on Specialist Weapon, might as well get to blow stuff up.

They don't lose out on specialist weapon. They're walkers they gain +1 attacks based on a different rule wording than basic models do. I don't have my book so you'll have to look it up.

Wait... really? Im at work so I cant look it up either lol

No. Specialist Weapon's rules trump the rule in the Walker description.

Yea, so a defiler with powerscourge would get +2 attacks. +1 for having two melee weapons which he only gets to keep because he has two specialist weapons, and then another +1 for every melee weapon more than that.
You would still get the extra +1 even if you didn't have two specialist weapons though. It only affects the first +1 you get for having two melee weapons, not the subsequent weapons.

Roknar wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:

daveh974 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Yeah 1100 points could get you a FT detachment of 2 lv2 furilibbies with flamers in pods, 3 fragiosos in pods, and Cassor in a pod. Good launching point for adding in skyhammer or 1st company podded sterns.

You could also do a Archangels Sanguine Wing. Lots of free upgrades.

I am suddenly reminded of the fact I wish that the Librarian Furioso could replace their arm with a Frag Cannon. They already lose out on Specialist Weapon, might as well get to blow stuff up.

They don't lose out on specialist weapon. They're walkers they gain +1 attacks based on a different rule wording than basic models do. I don't have my book so you'll have to look it up.

Wait... really? Im at work so I cant look it up either lol

No. Specialist Weapon's rules trump the rule in the Walker description.

Yea, so a defiler with powerscourge would get +2 attacks. +1 for having two melee weapons which he only gets to keep because he has two specialist weapons, and then another +1 for every melee weapon more than that.
You would still get the extra +1 even if you didn't have two specialist weapons though. It only affects the first +1 you get for having two melee weapons, not the subsequent weapons.

Now if only such a Defiler wasn't 220pts of dysfunctional gakfest...

Yea, sadly the Librarian Dreadnought does not have +1 attacks for 2x melee weapons. The Power Fist is a specialist weapon (though unweildy is ignored, thankfully) and the Furioso Force Halberd is not a specialist weapon paired with it.

Thankfully you can easily get Quickening from the Sanguinary discipline as the primaris power for +D3 Attacks & Initiative, meaning on the charge you could be looking at 4+1+D3, or 6 to 8 ST:10, AP:2 attacks at WS:5 at minimum initiative 5. Not too shabby.

I'm looking forward to podding my Librarian Dreadnought into battle soon.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

X

daveh974 wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Yea, sadly the Librarian Dreadnought does not have +1 attacks for 2x melee weapons. The Power Fist is a specialist weapon (though unweildy is ignored, thankfully) and the Furioso Force Halberd is not a specialist weapon paired with it.

Thankfully you can easily get Quickening from the Sanguinary discipline as the primaris power for +D3 Attacks & Initiative, meaning on the charge you could be looking at 4+1+D3, or 6 to 8 ST:10, AP:2 attacks at WS:5 at minimum initiative 5. Not too shabby.

I'm looking forward to podding my Librarian Dreadnought into battle soon.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I disagree, but maybe they'll clear it in the FAQ. Let's all as BA players flood them with questions on it in the hopes we can get it fixed. Along with the 1 pt for a bolt pistol on the priest nonsense. I'm tired of having 1846pt lists

There is nothing unclear here. The walker rules says you get +1 attack for using two CC weapons. Specialist Weapon says that you don't get +1 attack unless both weapons have Specialist Weapon. Power Fists are Specialist Weapons. Librarian Furiosos only have one Power Fist. Ergo, the Librarian Furioso does not get +1 attack. There is nothing in the rules for Walkers that lets you ignore Specialist Weapon.

Shorty after the FAQ, a list popped into my head similar to the one mentioned earlier. 2 furioso libbys in pods, 3 fragnoughts, cassor in a pod, and 5 quad melta assault marine squads in pods. Putting 6 dreads down on turn 1 seems kind of unfair. I think the list has legs.

That's still only 18 hps with no saves. It's fair. One turn of Eldar shooting can kill 4 of them easily.

Martel732 wrote:
That's still only 18 hps with no saves. It's fair. One turn of Eldar shooting can kill 4 of them easily.

Better use that cover and BLOS terrain to cover your butt.

Yeah it still seems too fragile. Even as a daemons player I would welcome that list and think I would do fine against it.

It would be really fun to use though.

the GOAT 765 wrote:
Haven't seen faq yet but does it work for csm dreadnought as well?

Sadly, no. I don't get why the didn't address it.

Martel732 wrote:
That's still only 18 hps with no saves. It's fair. One turn of Eldar shooting can kill 4 of them easily.

True, scatbikes can get to side or rear armor pretty easily. But the alpha strike potential of 6 str6 rending templates against t4 3+ save models is undeniable. And with the drop pod FAQ it has become harder to deploy against drop pods in a defensive manner.

I can't say you don't bring up a good point though. But with an average turn of shooting you can cripple or destroy 2-3 scatbike units on the first tirn, hampering your opponents ability to deal with multiple walkers.

The scatbikes will be in reserve vs that list. You won't kill any of them. Your only target will be Wraithknights and Wave Serpents.

They can move into a formation where 2/ dreads cover each other's rear armor! cos tactics

Using Lucius pods would also help. Hard to turn down an extra 3 hull points per dread.
(except against tyranids. An open-topped transport is not where you want your dreadnaught to be if it gets targeted by a haywire template)

Lucky for us, we have options. If all we're left with are wraithknights, putting 18 melta shots into it should do the trick. If not, it has to contend with 2 str10 force weapons that hit it on 3s and strike before it on the next turn. So we drop a WK and then we only have to deal with 2/3rds of an army of scatbikes? Seems like eldar is on its back foot.

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Yea, sadly the Librarian Dreadnought does not have +1 attacks for 2x melee weapons. The Power Fist is a specialist weapon (though unweildy is ignored, thankfully) and the Furioso Force Halberd is not a specialist weapon paired with it.

Thankfully you can easily get Quickening from the Sanguinary discipline as the primaris power for +D3 Attacks & Initiative, meaning on the charge you could be looking at 4+1+D3, or 6 to 8 ST:10, AP:2 attacks at WS:5 at minimum initiative 5. Not too shabby.

I'm looking forward to podding my Librarian Dreadnought into battle soon.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Specialist weapon is only in effect if you attack with a weapon that has the Specialist Weapon rule. So if a Libby Dread attacks with his power fist, he does not get an extra attack as the Specialist Rule requires you to have another weapon with the Specialist Rule. But if a Libby Dread attacks with his Halberd, he does get an extra attack, because a non-specialst weapon just requires the presence of a second CCW for an extra attack.

And this is not unique to Walkers. A Space Marine Captain with a power sword and a power fist would get an extra attack when attacking with the power sword. The Specialist Weapon rule of the power fist has as much bearing on the Captain's attacks as its Unwieldy rule does - ie, none.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Lucky for us, we have options. If all we're left with are wraithknights, putting 18 melta shots into it should do the trick. If not, it has to contend with 2 str10 force weapons that hit it on 3s and strike before it on the next turn. So we drop a WK and then we only have to deal with 2/3rds of an army of scatbikes? Seems like eldar is on its back foot.

You'll never catch the WK. You won't get all the melta within range. This list in no way puts the Eldar on the back foot, mostly because the shooting is awful.

Eldar hard counter alpha strike with reserves. I've seen it over and over.

 ChazSexington wrote:

the GOAT 765 wrote:
Haven't seen faq yet but does it work for csm dreadnought as well?

Sadly, no. I don't get why the didn't address it.

Do CSM even have "Dreadnaughts" anymore, I thought they all became Hellbrutes in the last codex ?

FW does, but technically the GW dreadnoughts became helbrutes. Not that they changed in any meaningful way other then their visuals though.

Roknar wrote:
FW does, but technically the GW dreadnoughts became helbrutes. Not that they changed in any meaningful way other then their visuals though.

We're giving helbrutes +2 attacks, but none make it to CC against the good lists anyway.

It's especially funny how the start collecting dread does everything the helbrute can but better if you count the formation special rule.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Lucky for us, we have options. If all we're left with are wraithknights, putting 18 melta shots into it should do the trick. If not, it has to contend with 2 str10 force weapons that hit it on 3s and strike before it on the next turn. So we drop a WK and then we only have to deal with 2/3rds of an army of scatbikes? Seems like eldar is on its back foot.

You'll never catch the WK. You won't get all the melta within range. This list in no way puts the Eldar on the back foot, mostly because the shooting is awful.

Eldar hard counter alpha strike with reserves. I've seen it over and over.

Except with the new pod rules,just open the doors and make if really easy to get stuff in range? You can get almost a foot away from the pod if you drop the doors down.

And if you deploy right, that WK wont have many places to run.

 th3maninblak wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Lucky for us, we have options. If all we're left with are wraithknights, putting 18 melta shots into it should do the trick. If not, it has to contend with 2 str10 force weapons that hit it on 3s and strike before it on the next turn. So we drop a WK and then we only have to deal with 2/3rds of an army of scatbikes? Seems like eldar is on its back foot.

You'll never catch the WK. You won't get all the melta within range. This list in no way puts the Eldar on the back foot, mostly because the shooting is awful.

Eldar hard counter alpha strike with reserves. I've seen it over and over.

Except with the new pod rules,just open the doors and make if really easy to get stuff in range? You can get almost a foot away from the pod if you drop the doors down.

And if you deploy right, that WK wont have many places to run.

It also makes it hard to get a lot of pods close. The WK will dust one dread with D-weapons and assault another every turn. That doesn't account for units in WS, either.

 th3maninblak wrote:
Lucky for us, we have options. If all we're left with are wraithknights, putting 18 melta shots into it should do the trick. If not, it has to contend with 2 str10 force weapons that hit it on 3s and strike before it on the next turn. So we drop a WK and then we only have to deal with 2/3rds of an army of scatbikes? Seems like eldar is on its back foot.

18 [shots] * 4/6 [to hit] * 3/6 [to wound] * 4/6 [fnp] = 4 wounds taken, 2.66 wounds if it's sword/shield instead of double cannon. Not even close to taking 1 down.

If it's the cannon version, it's just going to move 12" and blast you with D cannons and scatter fire
If it's the sword version, it's going to move 12", shoot scatter fire at you then charge an I4 dread and kill it before it swings

Asuming that you're going to get powers off against eldar is generally a mistake, assuming that you're going to charge something that moves 12" a turn with something that moves 6" a turn is foolish.

Even if you did the impossible and dropped a pair of WK's, those ~1000 points of scatbikes and warpspiders would push your gak in so hard you'd be walking funny for a week. Ranged high RoF str 6 win against melee AV12 with no save every time, especially when the side with extra mobility is the one doing the shooting.

Still don't see how we would be unable to catch a wraithknight, seeing as we would be able to dictate its movement with pods fairly well.

Still not seeing how this matchup is unwinnable in the least. I guess I'll just have to proxy it up and try it out!

 Redemption wrote:


Specialist weapon is only in effect if you attack with a weapon that has the Specialist Weapon rule. So if a Libby Dread attacks with his power fist, he does not get an extra attack as the Specialist Rule requires you to have another weapon with the Specialist Rule. But if a Libby Dread attacks with his Halberd, he does get an extra attack, because a non-specialst weapon just requires the presence of a second CCW for an extra attack.

And this is not unique to Walkers. A Space Marine Captain with a power sword and a power fist would get an extra attack when attacking with the power sword. The Specialist Weapon rule of the power fist has as much bearing on the Captain's attacks as its Unwieldy rule does - ie, none.

Are you sure that's how it works? I would dearly love to interpret it that way, as it certainly benefits me in this instance with granting an extra attack, but are specialist weapons considered a 'regular' CCW or does specialist weapon USR come into play for the second CCW of a non specialist weapon attack made by the same model?

My gaming group has always played it as if it's specialist, it doesn't confer extra attacks unless paired with another specialist weapon. Not that we are all correct with our interpretation, mind you. I have always thought, and it seemed inferred, that the bonus CCW attack required a 'standard' CCW that wasn't a specialist weapon, or had that USR, as the only way to get that bonus attack in melee (pistol, a second sword or what-have-you).

Not to start a rules debate, but I'd like some feedback on this if I can, as I'd like to present this case to my gaming group for future use and consideration.

Thanks, and take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-