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Has your outlook on Brexit improved since Thursdays Referendum, or do you feel more negative about the UK leaving the EU?

>> Poll only open for two weeks.

I saw this all coming - what were outside investors to think when the guy they went to for advice on what would happen if we leave was basicly saying the economy would be destroyed?

Particularly funny is the moment when the various world leaders realized that was a self-fulfilling prophecy and back-peddled.

I think that things will settle down.
I predict that there will be a slight lull in some scientific research as the various groups apply for funding through different routes.
I think that the euro comission will change some of it's members like tusk and junckers.
I also think that the 'domino effect' talked about in the media will not happen, but may lead to actual reform of the EU to avert that; i recon the CAP will be the first topic.

It's pretty much as I expected, although I did not expect the Leave Campaign to be so unprepared for victory that they don't seem to have any coherent plan or manifesto for what to do with it now that they have it.

They're a bit like a dog that caught the car it was chasing.

I'm still too angry about this whole debacle to comment effectively.

I think a lot of leave voters feel more negative about brexit, BUT a lot of remain voters actually are feeling less negative about it.

On one hand its a shameful and retrograde episode in British history. On the other the timetable for an independent Scotland has been significantly accelerated.

So I have a somewhat mixed outlook.

Obviously, I'm American, so my view may be irrelevant, but here goes anyway:
In principle, I find it worrisome that such a significant change in a nation's future is decided by such a slim majority. Can something that only 52% of voters can agree on really be considered "the will of the people"?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Obviously, I'm American, so my view may be irrelevant, but here goes anyway:
In principle, I find it worrisome that such a significant change in a nation's future is decided by such a slim majority. Can something that only 52% of voters can agree on really be considered "the will of the people"?

The alternative is that 48% is regarded as the will of the people.

 Ketara wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Obviously, I'm American, so my view may be irrelevant, but here goes anyway:
In principle, I find it worrisome that such a significant change in a nation's future is decided by such a slim majority. Can something that only 52% of voters can agree on really be considered "the will of the people"?

The alternative is that 48% is regarded as the will of the people.

Indeed... Grim though it may be, 52 > 48.

Tbf, Democracies rarely represent the True Will of the People, and rather just go by either one number > other number, or round up a bunch of representatives to decide something. A proper TWotP would be an anarchic society, and I don't really know how that'd work

The problem with the will of the people is that the people have different wills. So to speak. Numerical superiority is the only viable way of calculating the way forward.

I'm in Northern Ireland and I just hope the crazies here don't just use this as an excuse to start chucking petrol bombs around. It's marchin season coming up and tensions are high regardless.
We just don't need this kind of irresponsible unthinking mindless political nonsense going on in Westminster, we have plenty of that in Stormont already!


And that's not to mention the detrimental effect its having on the economy in the Republic of Ireland.

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others" - Churchill, quoting Anonymous

 Ketara wrote:
Numerical superiority is the only viable way of calculating the way forward.

Or just saying "the people are too stupid, we overrule their bad decision". When you have people saying "I voted to leave, but only because I didn't think it would win" I think it's a sign that the results of democracy can not be trusted.

Yes, but then you've set a precedent for ignoring results that you don't like. Either way, it's an issue.

If the 2nd Referendum does go through, it should be:

>We should Leave the EU
>We should Remain in the EU

Requiring a more than 60% vote in favour of Remain to overrule the current result.

As that would show that the UK as a whole rejects the Brexit referendum.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Numerical superiority is the only viable way of calculating the way forward.

Or just saying "the people are too stupid, we overrule their bad decision". When you have people saying "I voted to leave, but only because I didn't think it would win" I think it's a sign that the results of democracy can not be trusted.

The alternative is tyranny. Plato's philosopher king is not a good model of government.

Not that democracy is a good one either, but it's still preferable.

If they do hold a second referendum they should just be more honest about what the actual question people are answering is.



i am sick and tired of my elected officials preying on my fear to suit their power squabbles. (Cross this box)

I actually think the Leaders of this country are doing a great job and should continue to do so. (Cross this box)



That's what people were saying with their vote because the whole debate made little to no sense to a lot of people.

It doesn't help that the complexity of an issue like this is significantly above the head of a lot of voters. Even the smart people who are strongly to one side are confused.

How was the question unclear? EU: in or out.

There will be no second referendum. Who has the stomach for more fethwittery that what we are seeing now?

Me, but I have the mental endurance of an idiot.

Yeah... Voter fatigue would make a second referendum pale in comparison to the first and any decisive result to the contrary would doubtless carry fewer votes and make a mockery of the whole process. Not that the whole process wasn't a giant farce to begin with.

 SirDonlad wrote:

I think that the euro comission will change some of it's members like tusk and junckers.

Tusk is not a member of the Commission. He is the president of the European Council.
It think it is very sad that the vast majority of the people who voted for brexit probably don't even had an idea of what the European Union is or does in the first place.

The Commission is the executive branch of the EU, the Council is the EU's supreme political authority (being made up of the heads of the member states) where the most important decisions are negotiated and which keeps tabs on the Council and Parliament.
Here is a flowchart for EU organisation, it really is not that complicated:



My opinion of brexit is now less positive than before, mostly because of the EU's hard stance so far. I am afraid the brexit is going to create a lot more trouble for Britain than what the brexiteers are expecting. The second thing that has decreased my opinion is the reaction of bremain (and some brexit) supporters. It seems like tensions in the UK will remain high, and I really hope there won't be radicals on one side or another that do something stupid. Civil wars can come extremely swiftly and unexpectedly. Just look at poor Ukraine. No one wanted or expected a war there either.

 Ketara wrote:
The alternative is tyranny. Plato's philosopher king is not a good model of government.

Not that democracy is a good one either, but it's still preferable.

Then tyranny it is. If the alternative is "let people vote to crash the economy and break up the country" then tyranny is the only acceptable option. Democracy is not supposed to be a suicide pact.

Hang on, where's the box on this flow chart that represents the immigrants coming in from Turkey and the money going out to Brussels? Thats what 52% of voters think is the EU. That's how it was explained to them.

Cheers for the flowchart - it's pretty swirly but at least it tries to pictoralize all the bits and bobs of it.

 Selym wrote:
Has your outlook on Brexit improved since Thursdays Referendum, or do you feel more negative about the UK leaving the EU?

>> Poll only open for two weeks.

Well...

UK diplomacy is deeply weakened and a number of european trade agreements will probably have to be renegociated. The GBP is plummeting. Spain is actively trying to get Gibraltar back. France will let all the refugees cross the Channel. The Scots will soon leave the Union and rebuild the Hadrian's wall.

[frenchman]
Looks pretty positive to me.
[/frenchman]

Litcheur wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Has your outlook on Brexit improved since Thursdays Referendum, or do you feel more negative about the UK leaving the EU?

>> Poll only open for two weeks.

Well...

UK diplomacy is deeply weakened and a number of european trade agreements will probably have to be renegociated. The GBP is plummeting. Spain is actively trying to get Gibraltar back. France will let all the refugees cross the Channel. The Scots will soon leave the Union and rebuild the Hadrian's wall.

[frenchman]
Looks pretty positive to me.
[/frenchman]

I bloody knew it!

I always suspected that you lot had a parallel to our feeling of "bloody frenches!"
XD

A second referendum is out of the question. The first is valid.
However it is not binding.

There will be consequences for voting it down, but they are likely preferable to ratification.

To answer the OP.

I am more negative over Brexit post referendum because I didn't expect the opinions to be so polarised regionally. This has in hindsight not been so much a referendum on the EU but on the UK.

Economically Brexit is not as bad as pundits think, pound rallies and some UK companies gained value. It could work, but politically its a total disaster, and one that is completely unnecessary.

My country has effectively been destroyed by Cameron's gamble to outmaneuver opponents in his own party without too much fuss for him to deal with at the time.

 Orlanth wrote:
My country has effectively been destroyed by Cameron's gamble to outmaneuver opponents in his own party without too much fuss for him to deal with at the time.

That's pretty much where most of my regret with voting Leave comes from.

I still believe that, at the time, I made the right choice based on the information I had available, but seeing the fallout of such a vote... I knew it wouldn't be favourable, but it's more ugly than I thought it would be. Friends turning against friends, an entire nation collapsing into infighting whilst Cameron counts his money and picks his next job, probably as some corporate bigwig in the States. There's no banding together to make anything work; there's no feeling of "let's make the best of this mess that we can"; there's just fear, and hatred, and a general picture of social trench warfare. As someone who was ridiculously on the fence, this has just made everything harder to come to terms with. I didn't vote because I thought it wouldn't count; I didn't vote because of 'the imigrunts'; I didn't vote for the Leave campaign's dulcet suggestions; but there's still the fact I'm undeniably responsible, which would be easier to accept if I hadn't been so close to voting Remain.

My reasons for voting Leave are still very much valid in my eyes, which is more than I can say for lies the campaign peddled, but were they valid enough to justify all this? Am I deservedly at fault for helping to cause this? To go back to a comment in the main thread: am I a bad person because I voted Leave?

So yeah, I suppose you could say my opinion post-referendum is rather more negative.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Friends turning against friends, an entire nation collapsing into infighting whilst Cameron counts his money and picks his next job, probably as some corporate bigwig in the States. There's no banding together to make anything work; there's no feeling of "let's make the best of this mess that we can"; there's just fear, and hatred, and a general picture of social trench warfare.

I very much agree with this.
The whole nation is split in half. You have remainers blaming old people and the uneducated, while leavers saying the remainers haven't a clue and are a bunch of tree hugging idealists.
Both sides had strong arguments and it was a case for most voters of it being a lesser of two evils, and it was always a damned if you do / damned if you don't referendum. But now its kicked up all kinds of problems such as the SNP threatening to continue the neverendum, the economy taking a hit and so forth.
The face of UK politics has changed and divides have just opened up even more.

I think the dislike of the EU has only been growing over the years across Europe.
Over a decade ago it was seen as a minor issue that nobody really cared much about, now it is quite the opposite. If the EU was actually more willing to go back to being more trade related rather than an imposed 'federation of nations' of sorts, then I don't believe this out vote would have happened.
If Cameron actually got anything worthwhile from his negotiations then I don't think the out vote would have won, and the fact Junker came out a day or two before saying the UK would be getting no negotiation on anything else that sealed it for a lot of voters, especially considering a big chunk of the Remain camp's pull was that they had to be in the EU to get change and negotiate.

Why did anyone think that there would be no repercussions as a result of the vote?

You only had to look to the north and see what happened when Scotland voted. The only reason is didn't get any worse because we all decided it was Englands fault and went back to business as usual.

If parliament refuses to accept the referendum as the will of the people it will only reinforce the idea that the man in the street has no control over his own destiny and that they are answerable to Europe. Sturgeon should of kept her mouth shut over a 2nd independence vote as its not helping either. If she must do it quietly, not announce it to the world.

Cheers

Andrew