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pm713 wrote:
Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.

ITT:

"Just outmaneuver the bikes. It's not that hard. I can't believe you can't outmaneuver the jetbikes. L2P."

I am apoplectic at this point.

 Traditio wrote:
Bottom line to the OP

If you don't want to cheese with eldar:

No wraithknights, wraithguard, bikes (of any weapons configuration) or wave serpents.

And no farseers, spiritseers...or any psykers, for that matter.

Not even one.

And even then, whatever else you pick is still likely to be undercosted for what it does.

Feth eldar. Don't buy that codex. It's rage inducing even when you're playing casually.

Quit whining and try changing your army and playstyle to counter the new threats in the meta. Space Marines have probably the widest range of minis of any faction, and that's before you count allies. Which you really SHOULD count. Not rely on, but do consider them. As well as opening up some interesting new tactics, they add a welcome break from painting wave after wave of (in my case) blue power armour.

Martel has some actually legitimate gripes; Blood Angels are pretty poor right now and his local scene seems to be filled with WAAC douchebags.

Bharring wrote:
It's got 9 Brightlance equivelent shots and 5 Sniper shots. At about 1850, wouldn't a Marine player either hug the middle ground or outshoot the list at range?

BA aren't outshooting anyone. Ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Bottom line to the OP

If you don't want to cheese with eldar:

No wraithknights, wraithguard, bikes (of any weapons configuration) or wave serpents.

And no farseers, spiritseers...or any psykers, for that matter.

Not even one.

And even then, whatever else you pick is still likely to be undercosted for what it does.

Feth eldar. Don't buy that codex. It's rage inducing even when you're playing casually.

Quit whining and try changing your army and playstyle to counter the new threats in the meta. Space Marines have probably the widest range of minis of any faction, and that's before you count allies. Which you really SHOULD count. Not rely on, but do consider them. As well as opening up some interesting new tactics, they add a welcome break from painting wave after wave of (in my case) blue power armour.

Martel has some actually legitimate gripes; Blood Angels are pretty poor right now and his local scene seems to be filled with WAAC douchebags.

They're not so much douchy I think as the Tau guy has to compete with the Eldar guy and vice versa.

Lord Corellia wrote:Quit whining and try changing your army and playstyle to counter the new threats in the meta.

A veritable trope, repeated ad nauseam by the Eldar players.

Because, conveniently, it never applies to them.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.

ITT:

"Just outmaneuver the bikes. It's not that hard. I can't believe you can't outmaneuver the jetbikes. L2P."

I am apoplectic at this point.

-Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's rule #1-

If you can't even ATTEMPT to outmanoeuvre jetbikes then that raises serious questions about your terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Lord Corellia wrote:Quit whining and try changing your army and playstyle to counter the new threats in the meta.

A veritable trope, repeated ad nauseam by the Eldar players.

Because, conveniently, it never applies to them.

Sort of does. I can't help but laugh at the irony of you complaining other people won't adapt.

pm713 wrote:

If you can't even ATTEMPT to outmanoeuvre jetbikes then that raises serious questions about your terrain.

I'm generally the one who sets up the terrain.

I play on a 6 X 4 table and divide the table evenly into a 9 space grid, placing a sizeable terrain piece in each (mostly ruins).

I place the terrain in a symmetrical, orderly, and even fashion to ensure that both players have a relatively even advantage at the time of deployment.

I'm still not sure what you are expecting me to do with those rhinos.

To be fair, trying to outmaneuver what is probably the most maneuverable unit in the game is not exactly easy. It can be done, but generally relies on just being on as much of the board as possible, which has its drawbacks as well.

Thats said, I think everyone is in agreement that Jetbikes are currently ultrabusted and probably would not feature heavily in a friendly army. Lets leave the discusson about the details for elsewhere.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, trying to outmaneuver what is probably the most maneuverable unit in the game is not exactly easy. It can be done, but generally relies on just being on as much of the board as possible, which has its drawbacks as well.

Thats said, I think everyone is in agreement that Jetbikes are currently ultrabusted and probably would not feature heavily in a friendly army. Lets leave the discusson about the details for elsewhere.

Two eldar players, in this thread, have just told me that I need to outmaneuver their jetbikes.

I want to hear this explained.

You can't tell me that you're not even slightly curious?

I'll make a new thread about this.

tneva82 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Traditio do you play on a board without boundaries or something? It's not hard to have enough army presence to create areas where going there will mean taking a lot of fire. Especially when one person has a huge points advantage.

Likely he plays with shifting board. One that always changes just so that it's against him. There's always big huge tower for enemy to put in snipers to get LOS to everything while there's no building or anything to hide his own squad.

Plus, the Eldar Codex that he plays against gives the WK twin S(D) blast cannons *and* a re-rollable Sv3++ *and* S(D) in HtH... Backed by FREE Scatbikes. And auto-hitting Wraithguard with S(D) guns that can fire 24" all the time...

 Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, trying to outmaneuver what is probably the most maneuverable unit in the game is not exactly easy. It can be done, but generally relies on just being on as much of the board as possible, which has its drawbacks as well.

Thats said, I think everyone is in agreement that Jetbikes are currently ultrabusted and probably would not feature heavily in a friendly army. Lets leave the discusson about the details for elsewhere.

Two eldar players, in this thread, have just told me that I need to outmaneuver their jetbikes.

I want to hear this explained.

You can't tell me that you're not even slightly curious?

I'll make a new thread about this.

Please don't.

It's very simple. You have your army positioned in such a way that a jetbike has few choices in where to go that do not place it in some form of danger.

 Traditio wrote:

Lord Corellia wrote:Quit whining and try changing your army and playstyle to counter the new threats in the meta.

A veritable trope, repeated ad nauseam by the Eldar players.

Because, conveniently, it never applies to them.

You have, in the past, vehemently denied needing to change your army, insisting that your opponents should tone theirs down instead. That is the most hypocritical bs I've ever heard. I'm sorry that you believe everyone else needs to come to the same conclusions as you, but that simply isn't how the world works.

Especially without a conversation. You have repeatedly stated that rather than talk to a Tau or Eldar player, your immediate response is that you simply refuse to play them. That sends out more of a message about you personally than it does about them, their faction or their list.

 Galef wrote:
Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable.

Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.

I dunno. Gladius Troops of 5 SMs getting FREE super-Scoring Razorbacks makes them pretty darn points efficient and dangerous...

As for Orks... Orks WIN the tournament!
1. Tabled Decurion!
2. Tabled War Convocation!
3. Tabled #2 CSM!

To the OP. Simply speaking yes you can play Eldar that isn't particularly cheesy, which is good because I'm lactose intolerant.
Same rules that apply to any army, don't spam your strongest units (wraithknights or scatterbikes mainly but don't take too many wraithguard either)
Eldar is a good army, one of the better ones at the moment. But at the end of the day as long as you are a curtious gamer and you and your opponent both enjoy the game, it honestly doesn't matter.
Some people will have fun no matter what you play, others, as you may be able to guess, will prolapse whenever you say the word Eldar.
So yes, Eldar can be played without cheese easily, don't flood your army with the strongest stuff and don't play against a whining idiot and you'll be fine.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable.

Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.

I dunno. Gladius Troops of 5 SMs getting FREE super-Scoring Razorbacks makes them pretty darn points efficient and dangerous...

As for Orks... Orks WIN the tournament!
1. Tabled Decurion!
2. Tabled War Convocation!
3. Tabled #2 CSM!

I'm aware that people like to use the word "Free." It's not as good as it sounds.

Your 81 point scatter bikes are going to beat my (hypothetical) 80 point tactical squad with heavy bolter and free rhino. Every time.

 Traditio wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable.

Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.

I dunno. Gladius Troops of 5 SMs getting FREE super-Scoring Razorbacks makes them pretty darn points efficient and dangerous...

As for Orks... Orks WIN the tournament!
1. Tabled Decurion!
2. Tabled War Convocation!
3. Tabled #2 CSM!

I'm aware that people like to use the word "Free." It's not as good as it sounds.

Your 81 point scatter bikes are going to beat my (hypothetical) 80 point tactical squad with heavy bolter and free rhino. Every time.

That's not exactly the case. Free transports buys you a LOT of durability against the Eldar. If you get first turn, the Gladius really dominates the middle of the board. The firepower if very dispersed, so the Eldar can't focus it down. Once you have about 3-6 grav cannons midfield, all in different units, you can start putting on the hurt. Now the bikes have to jink every turn and the downhill slide begins, as the Eldar are simultaneously falling behind in points scored.

 Traditio wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Scatterbikes are definitely the best Troop in the game, but they are NOT unbeatable.

Even Nids and Orks can beat them, Nids via tons of Dakka and Orks by being too numerous and covering the table.

I dunno. Gladius Troops of 5 SMs getting FREE super-Scoring Razorbacks makes them pretty darn points efficient and dangerous...

As for Orks... Orks WIN the tournament!
1. Tabled Decurion!
2. Tabled War Convocation!
3. Tabled #2 CSM!

I'm aware that people like to use the word "Free." It's not as good as it sounds.

Your 81 point scatter bikes are going to beat my (hypothetical) 80 point tactical squad with heavy bolter and free rhino. Every time.

Tradito, you at least have a chance to counter this cheese. Have you ever tried facing Eldar with Imperial Guard? No, well let me give you a rough idea:
Turn 1
Eldar player *move*
Eldar Player *Psychic* [I remove one or two models. Maybe]
Eldar player *Shoot* [and there goes my army]
Elday player "Well, that was fun, do you want another game"?

You say that, but I've had some rough games against Imperial guard with my Eldar. Now admittedly I was not using a Wraithknight but with that many Wyvern mortars plucking off my Scatter bikes, Demo vets coming out of Valks to murder my Wraithguard and a Culexus assassin with an unholy amount of Torox/chimera transports hammered my seer council and Wave Serpents, its fair to say they've got a fighting chance.

Not saying they are broken or even remotely cheesy, that may be a mono-build but I certainly struggled against it... Take from that what you will.

I would never tell a person they are playing too cheesy an army unless they build a super cheese list but putting one or two strong units with similarly "weak"eldar stuff. Just play for fun makes life much easier.

 Lord Corellia wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Lord Corellia wrote:Quit whining and try changing your army and playstyle to counter the new threats in the meta.

A veritable trope, repeated ad nauseam by the Eldar players.

Because, conveniently, it never applies to them.

You have, in the past, vehemently denied needing to change your army, insisting that your opponents should tone theirs down instead. That is the most hypocritical bs I've ever heard. I'm sorry that you believe everyone else needs to come to the same conclusions as you, but that simply isn't how the world works.

Especially without a conversation. You have repeatedly stated that rather than talk to a Tau or Eldar player, your immediate response is that you simply refuse to play them. That sends out more of a message about you personally than it does about them, their faction or their list.

*Smashes the Exalt button so hard it breaks.*

Back on topic,
It seems the consensus is that, yes, you can build non-cheesy CWE lists.

There is a long side conversation about just how cheesy Scatter Bikes are. But after the flame fest that was the sidethread, and it's subsequent locking, perhaps we should all realize we aren't going to change more minds beyond what is already written.

There was debate about a 1-WK list, and whether it was possible to have one and not be cheesy.

But instead of further derailing, let's try to explore what other selections can be non-cheesy.

The exceptions I take to some guidelines are no psykers, no Jetbikes of any kind, and no Wraithguard/D.

To that end, I submit the following alteration of a previous list:

Spirit Seer (Runes of Battle)
2xRangers
2xGuardian Defenders + Warlock + EML
1xStorm Guardians + Melta + Warlock
1xWindriders 3man, no weapon upgrades
1xShining Spears+Exarch+Laser Lance
1xSwooping Hawks (6) + Exarch + Sunrise
1xVyper+EML
1×Banshees+Exarch+Executioner
1xWraithguard (cannons)
1xWraithblades (Axes)
1xWraithlord+2xShuriken Cannons+ Sword
1xFalcon+BL+holo+ghostwalk
1xFire Prism+holo+ghostwalk

That list has Jetbikes, Psykers, *and* ranged D Wraithguard. But is it really cheese?

The Windriders are a little better than they should be stock, but one unit should be manageable.

The Psykers aren't rolling Invisible or Fortune. And don't have Farseer runes.

The Wraithguard are footslogging. Tough, but short range, and no movement shenanigans.

The long range firepower is about what an equal points CAD of PA Marines would put out at those points. The midrange firepower is nearly nothing. The short range is noticeable.

The mobility is limited. The Jetbikes can get places, but the Windriders can't do more than that, and the Shining Spears arent too scary. A good PA Marine list could certainly outmaneuver.

The durability varies. Much of the list dies like IG. Three units are slow, tough, and have a very small threat range.

Traditio's general take is accurate, Eldar, across the board, are far too efficient points-wise.

I mean, everyone's using the gladius as some sort of counterpoint, but all the gladius does is highlight the need for Marines to have 500 or so extra points of models to be able to compete with Eldar.

So...to overly simplify...an 1850 non-gladius Space marine army would most likely find themselves on equal footing with a 1350 Eldar list.

It's a problem.

A counterpoint to Scatter Bikes was Gladius.

The counter to most of the other units in the Dex is things like a CAD of PA Marines.

Look at the list above. Would you really need Gladius or Decurion to face it?

I'm still coming to you, so short range doesn't matter at all. Yes, this list suffers terribly vs grav cannons. But not other Imperial heavies so much, due to model count.

Why would you go to its beeffects stuff?

The list has 3 Missile Launchers, 4 Lascannon-class weapons, and a pair of Sniper squads.

If you took two Dev squads and two Sniper Scouts squads you'd match it at range. And those aren't that great.

Plasma Tac squads, any Imperial heavy weapons, Bolguns, all do good damage to the list.

Only one of the CC threats can move well, and that's got MEQ survivability for 100pts for 3 models.

 Voidwraith wrote:
Traditio's general take is accurate, Eldar, across the board, are far too efficient points-wise.

I mean, everyone's using the gladius as some sort of counterpoint, but all the gladius does is highlight the need for Marines to have 500 or so extra points of models to be able to compete with Eldar.

So...to overly simplify...an 1850 non-gladius Space marine army would most likely find themselves on equal footing with a 1350 Eldar list.

It's a problem.

That's not exactly true. As Traditio has pointed out himself a few times, the mandatory units you take that you might not have taken even out the points somewhat. For example, I would only take 3 tactical squads, and not 6. Thus sort of "returning" the free points of the rhinos. It's more of the play style of being able to control the board that damns other armies.

Look at it this way.

Take two Dev squads with Missile Launchers. Bad options on bad units. 10man units.

Take a tri-Las pred.

You still have another what, 1300 points to spend, and you're already out shooting them?

More realistically, if you want to get up close, you take some Imperial heavy weapons (even on Devs, Tacs, and Preds), and soften them up first. Then move in your CC units to handle their lighter stuff.

Or you go PG heavy, and stay at medium range. The Heavy weapons don't have the ROF to kill you, and the Heavy hitters can't get in range.

I'd use a combination. Long range to remove a Heavy threat. Plasma to cut down the Wraithguard while drawing the Heavy threats away. ASM and podded Tacs to eat the lighter stuff, as their heavy stuff can't guard everything (short of castleing, but even Plasma Cannons or a Whirlwind will make that inviable)

Bharring wrote:
Why would you go to its beeffects stuff?

The list has 3 Missile Launchers, 4 Lascannon-class weapons, and a pair of Sniper squads.

If you took two Dev squads and two Sniper Scouts squads you'd match it at range. And those aren't that great.

Plasma Tac squads, any Imperial heavy weapons, Bolguns, all do good damage to the list.

Only one of the CC threats can move well, and that's got MEQ survivability for 100pts for 3 models.

Because I don't list tailor, and I never use devastators. Because they are awful. I don't use predators. Because they are awful. I don't own sniper scouts because up until a few days ago, they were awful for BA.

So you spam CC units?

What would your list at that points level look like?


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My SM lists aren't competitive/streamlined, but usually contain:
CAD
Captain or CM on foot
10man Tac + Plas +Combi Plas vet sarge +PF +MM in a Pod
10man Tac + Plas +Combi Plas vet sarge + meltabomb +Heavy Bolter
Either a 5man Tac +Melta/Combi Melta or a Scout squad (bolters + ML or Snipers + HB+Hellfire)
10man Devs with 4xLC, combat squadded
10man Devs with 4xML or PC, also combat squared
7man ASM w/vet sarge powersword meltabomb + Flamer
Usually a Dread in a Pod.
Often a Pred as well.
Then fill to points.

A list like that I think stands a great chance vs the non-cheesy CWE list above, without tailoring.

I would think most casual lists would do OK against it.

Why can't yours?

We talking 2K here?

The CWE list is 1850.