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 Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:However, if the list above is too weak, and other lists are too strong, it seems trivial to assume that a middle ground could be hit.

Like what?

I'm running devastators. Are you going to use dark reapers to provide a fair matchup? Sounds like a good idea, right? Except for the fact that the dark reapers are going to be more effective, have better special rules, have the same range and cost fewer points per model.

I'm running tactical squads with heavy weapons. So you'll run 6 windrider units, each of which has a single scatter laser. Sounds like a good match-up on paper, right? Except I'm paying 85 points per squad, and you're paying 61 points per squad.

I'm running sternguard, so you'll run fire dragons in a wave serpent and a unit of wraithguard in wave serpent.

Except you'll have a marked advantage against AV, and wave serpents are still pretty darned good even in 7th edition.

I'm running assault marines in rhinos. So, you'll run warp spiders.

I mean, I could keep going. If you don't intentionally take a garbage list, and if you try to make a list that actually "matches" mine, what you are going to end up with, simply because you are using the Eldar codex, is a list that's much more effective and points efficient than mine.

I offer a serious challenge. Make a list that has a 50/50 chance of beating the missile launcher spam list.

You won't be able to.

What you are going to end up with is a list that either stomps it, or else, gets stomped by it. You won't find a middle ground.

1) Compared to MLs I assume? If so, a comparable choice would be reapers with Starshot missiles, right? If so, the Dark Reapers are 4 points more expensive. For special rules they get Ancient Doom (usually you can ignore that one), Battlefocus which is fairly nice as they get to run after they fire their Heavy weapons, and the rangefinder to get rid of Jink. Their anti-infantry option usually has an edge over the devs frag missiles against high quality targets, but against light infantry the frags will generally win. The marines get Tank Hunter as you are running IFs, and they get ATSKNF, arguably the best morale rule in the entire game. So depending on the type of hard target, either the marines or the reapers could have the edge. The only really relevant statline difference is the marines' +1T. Doesn't really seem like a bad deal for -4 ppm on the devs?

2) Why would a guardian squad with a heavy weapon platform not be what you take to correspond to a marine squad with a heavy weapon? Oh, right, because the marine squad has an advantage there, and we're trying to go with the premise of it being impossible to make a corresponding army list. The guardians are indeed much cheaper, but the Marines get some serious advantages over them, namely 3+ vs 5+ armor and +1T, guns that can fire at 24" range and not just 12", and against chapter tactics, atsknf, all that jazz. In a footslogging fight, the Marines will generally win if the marine player is smart enough to not let the guardians get first strike with battlefocus.

3) I'd say the Fire Dragons are more likely to be what's taken here, because the cost is far closer. A full combi-melta sternguard squad is only 25 points less than a FD squad in a serp, wheras it's something like 80 points less than the wraithguard squad even before they take scythes. The Fire Dragons have an offensive edge with their explodes on 4+ melta attacks, and their transport is more reliable making them slightly less likely to turn into a suicide squad, but the marines have a drop pod to get them guaranteed right where they need to go, even first turn. And after that first turn, the marines have sternguard ammunition and the usual better stats. They're both squads where they're very likely to pop out, melta something, then promptly die, but that big money strike is far easier to play around in the case of the FDs than the Sternguard because the sternguard just show up. The Serpent makes for a much better sustaining threat after the FDs have done their thing, if you don't do something like get it in melee the turn the dragons get out or shoot it in the rear armor that it has to present to drop the dragons off, but the squad is a base of 25pt more expensive. Again, not seeing how this is not something pretty comparable.

4) Huh? What does a warp spider do that corresponds to what an assault squad does? Why would the corresponding Eldar squad not be something like Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions? Or heck, at that point the more accurately corresponding unit would be storm guardians with 2x melta in a serpent, who play basically the same way rhino-borne assault marines do....i.e. try to be a melta unit and kind of suck at it, and then wish they could get into melee.

Trad,
That isn't really how building an equal-level list works. You don't just fill in analogues.

Further, your analogues and comparisons are off:
Dark Reapers vs Devs: Reapers are better, but they aren't cheaper. The stock Reaper is a Heavy Bolter analogue. It costs 1ppm more. Sure, it's worth more than the increased cost, but it's not cheaper.

Reapers with Star shot are another 8ppm. Better than ML Devs, though.

While they are better, it's also not in every way. ML Devs cost less, are T4, are passible in CC, have ATSKNF, and CT. Oh, and IH CT is really good for those ML Devs.

I wouldn't call Windriders the analogue to Tacs. Maybe SM Bikes. The analogue to an aggressive Plas Tac squad is DAs. The analogue to a Heavy weapons Tac squad is Guardian Defenders. The closest CWE has to a Melta or Flamer Tac squad is Storm Guardians. In all these cases aside from Windriders, the Tacs compare at least reasonably. Often much better.

Podded combi-Melta Sternies is kinda sorta FDS in a Serpent. That can be argued ad nauseum about which is better, but it's certainly not a huge difference in favor of the FDS on a per-point level.

Non-Combi Sternies don't have a CWE analogue. CWE don't have toolbox units like that.

Wraithguard are maybe analogous to Vindicators. With delivery, better. Without delivery, not so much.

A Waveserpent is a great transport compared to a Rhino, model for model. But how does it compare to four rhinos? It could stand to be worse. The shield's shooting needed a bigger nerf. But beyond that, it isn't that scary. It costs a lot of points.

Assault Marines in Rhinos is nothing like Warp Spiders. Without jet packs, they're better Storm Guardians. With Jet packs, they are Striking Scorpions. Compared to Striking Scorpions, it's +1T vs Stealth, and Infiltrate/MtC vs a Jetpack. Pretty darn close.

As for your challenge, if the average player looked at a random list with power within the range their codex can handle, an "equivelent" list they spin up to match it exactly will probably either win 60%+ of games or lose 6p% of games. It's a very difficult request. That isn't CWE specific.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:However, if the list above is too weak, and other lists are too strong, it seems trivial to assume that a middle ground could be hit.

Like what?

I'm running devastators. Are you going to use dark reapers to provide a fair matchup? Sounds like a good idea, right? Except for the fact that the dark reapers are going to be more effective, have better special rules, have the same range and cost fewer points per model.

I'm running tactical squads with heavy weapons. So you'll run 6 windrider units, each of which has a single scatter laser. Sounds like a good match-up on paper, right? Except I'm paying 85 points per squad, and you're paying 61 points per squad.

I'm running sternguard, so you'll run fire dragons in a wave serpent and a unit of wraithguard in wave serpent.

Except you'll have a marked advantage against AV, and wave serpents are still pretty darned good even in 7th edition.

I'm running assault marines in rhinos. So, you'll run warp spiders.

I mean, I could keep going. If you don't intentionally take a garbage list, and if you try to make a list that actually "matches" mine, what you are going to end up with, simply because you are using the Eldar codex, is a list that's much more effective and points efficient than mine.

I offer a serious challenge. Make a list that has a 50/50 chance of beating the missile launcher spam list.

You won't be able to.

What you are going to end up with is a list that either stomps it, or else, gets stomped by it. You won't find a middle ground.

1) Compared to MLs I assume? If so, a comparable choice would be reapers with Starshot missiles, right? If so, the Dark Reapers are 4 points more expensive. For special rules they get Ancient Doom (usually you can ignore that one), Battlefocus which is fairly nice as they get to run after they fire their Heavy weapons, and the rangefinder to get rid of Jink. Their anti-infantry option usually has an edge over the devs frag missiles against high quality targets, but against light infantry the frags will generally win. The marines get Tank Hunter as you are running IFs, and they get ATSKNF, arguably the best morale rule in the entire game. So depending on the type of hard target, either the marines or the reapers could have the edge. The only really relevant statline difference is the marines' +1T. Doesn't really seem like a bad deal for -4 ppm on the devs?

2) Why would a guardian squad with a heavy weapon platform not be what you take to correspond to a marine squad with a heavy weapon? Oh, right, because the marine squad has an advantage there, and we're trying to go with the premise of it being impossible to make a corresponding army list. The guardians are indeed much cheaper, but the Marines get some serious advantages over them, namely 3+ vs 5+ armor and +1T, guns that can fire at 24" range and not just 12", and against chapter tactics, atsknf, all that jazz. In a footslogging fight, the Marines will generally win if the marine player is smart enough to not let the guardians get first strike with battlefocus.

3) I'd say the Fire Dragons are more likely to be what's taken here, because the cost is far closer. A full combi-melta sternguard squad is only 25 points less than a FD squad in a serp, wheras it's something like 80 points less than the wraithguard squad even before they take scythes. The Fire Dragons have an offensive edge with their explodes on 4+ melta attacks, and their transport is more reliable making them slightly less likely to turn into a suicide squad, but the marines have a drop pod to get them guaranteed right where they need to go, even first turn. And after that first turn, the marines have sternguard ammunition and the usual better stats. They're both squads where they're very likely to pop out, melta something, then promptly die, but that big money strike is far easier to play around in the case of the FDs than the Sternguard because the sternguard just show up. The Serpent makes for a much better sustaining threat after the FDs have done their thing, if you don't do something like get it in melee the turn the dragons get out or shoot it in the rear armor that it has to present to drop the dragons off, but the squad is a base of 25pt more expensive. Again, not seeing how this is not something pretty comparable.

4) Huh? What does a warp spider do that corresponds to what an assault squad does? Why would the corresponding Eldar squad not be something like Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions? Or heck, at that point the more accurately corresponding unit would be storm guardians with 2x melta in a serpent, who play basically the same way rhino-borne assault marines do....i.e. try to be a melta unit and kind of suck at it, and then wish they could get into melee.

Actually, the dark reapers can't battle focus despite having the rule because battle focus specifically doesn't allow you to run if you shoot a heavy weapon. They do get Slow & Purposeful though. I largely agree with the rest of what you said.

It's not the Heavy that stops them from running. Even if they don't fire (never seen that happen), SnP doesn't allow running.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:Would have vs your gladius list is in objective based games where you can easily outscore or contest everything while the "heavy" hitters take a couple turns to kill of everything that's in a transport, but is overall isn't worried about your damage output too much, especially if wraith blades with axes help screen the guard/banshees so they can get close.

I may simply not be understanding how the units are supposed to operate, but what I'm seeing in that list is a bunch of foot-sloggers with a few AV heavy weapons platforms.

Against that list, I'm building a rhino wall in the middle of the map, shooting missiles at the things that can get close to my gunline the fastest and using special ammo against any infantry that get too close.

And the list wouldn't have either the numbers to really soak the damage, or else, the fire power to make me really worry.

As for the Tsons list, you have plenty of wasted points with VotlW, raptors in general, and cultists with mid-to-close range weapons, and a heavy stubber (which is about as useful as an ork's shoota) and a shotgun. As for your damage output, it's pretty low overall, and after the havocs get killed, you lose most of your hitting power.

Vs. infantry, the heavy hitters are Ahriman and the ML3 sorcerers. Psychic shriek spam, yo.

1. I already said it'd be fairly tough against the first list, you would probably win by virtue of using the an OP formation like the gladius vs a very casual list that the eldar are using. Of course, the eldar player could make it closer by taking some stronger units (i.e. drop wraith blades for another wraithlord, winder riders with a 1 heavy weapon per 3, and/or some wave serpents), or a formation or two (i.e. an aspect shrine with dark reapers/fire dragons/swooping hawks), or simply swapping out the low fire rate weapons (BL/EMLs) for shuriken cannons for some more mid strength fire power.

2. You're facing a decent amount of LD9-10 on units you want to shriek (max of what, 7 shrieks assuming none fail, peril and die, or get denied), and assuming they're all in range. And yeah, shrieks can be nasty, but against the wraith units you'll (on average) get 1 wound per 2 shrieks (average roll of 10.5 minus their 10 LD), 1.5 vs the aspects, and 2.5 until the warlocks die in the guardian squads. As for the blades, with axes they also have a 4+ invul save. For reference, your lascannons will put out 2.5 wounds (4 fire, 3 hit, 5/6 of those wound) on anything before saves (shriek ignores cover however), and the melta havocs (assuming gun) would be right in the range of everything else (i.e. the 2 squads of 10 guardians and windriders with their assault 2 S4 psuedo rending gun), or rangers picking out the special/heavy weapons in squads once the rhinos go down.

I wouldn't say your lists are unbeatable with this eldar list, (chaos would be easier imo gladius harder due to the nature of it already being OP), and the only change I'd make agaisnt your gladius list is some bikes with heavy weapons (again 1 per 3, and you've brought an OP formation so I think that would help balance it out a bit)

Bharring wrote:
It's not the Heavy that stops them from running. Even if they don't fire (never seen that happen), SnP doesn't allow running.

Is it not both that prevents running? Pretty sure a ranger can't snipe with his rifle and then run. I could be mistaken and don't have my book in front of me.

Either would prevent it.

If I was going to build an analogous, troop heavy Eldar list to go up against the IF list you posted earlier, you'd see:

HQ: Illic Nightspear (corresponding to Pedro as a moderately priced melee focused named character HQ)

Troops:
2x 10 man DA squads with Exarch (Corresponding to Sternguard with no weapons, anti infantry specialists)

3x Guardian Defender squads with EMLs and Warlocks (corresponding to tactical squads with Rockets)

2x Storm Guardian squads with 2x flamers in Wave Serpents (corresponding to assault squads)

Heavy Support:

2x Dark Reaper squads with Starshot and EML Exarch (Dev squads)

Elites:

10x Striking Scorpions with Scorp Claw Exarch (for Illic to pal around with. much more of a 'loose correspondence' here, these guys are analogues to the general melee flexibility your force has that mine lacks.)

Unless I'm counting wrong, your model count is higher, your squad count is much higher, but my troops are generally better at their specialized roles. That's the classic Eldar vs Marines dynamic, and I feel like not only are these lists analogous, they are fairly even in terms of matchup.

The matchup may be a bit dull, because troopspam gets dull pretty quick, but that wasn't even difficult, let alone impossible, to figure out.

the_scotsman wrote:
If I was going to build an analogous, troop heavy Eldar list to go up against the IF list you posted earlier, you'd see:

HQ: Illic Nightspear (corresponding to Pedro as a moderately priced melee focused named character HQ)

Troops:
2x 10 man DA squads with Exarch (Corresponding to Sternguard with no weapons, anti infantry specialists)

3x Guardian Defender squads with EMLs and Warlocks (corresponding to tactical squads with Rockets)

2x Storm Guardian squads with 2x flamers in Wave Serpents (corresponding to assault squads)

Heavy Support:

2x Dark Reaper squads with Starshot and EML Exarch (Dev squads)

Elites:

10x Striking Scorpions with Scorp Claw Exarch (for Illic to pal around with. much more of a 'loose correspondence' here, these guys are analogues to the general melee flexibility your force has that mine lacks.)

Unless I'm counting wrong, your model count is higher, your squad count is much higher, but my troops are generally better at their specialized roles. That's the classic Eldar vs Marines dynamic, and I feel like not only are these lists analogous, they are fairly even in terms of matchup.

The matchup may be a bit dull, because troopspam gets dull pretty quick, but that wasn't even difficult, let alone impossible, to figure out.

I think you may be thinking of Yriel rather than Illic. Illic is the sniper guy. Yriel is the spear guy with the laser monocle.

IMO, if you're trying to match SMs directly, wouldn't you instead take mostly Sv3+ units: with Scorps/Spiders as the foot/JP AM equivalents, FDs as the Vanguard units? And no WL as the Dread-equivalent?

Or is your design brief to spam the most dudes with the least armor? IMO, a Guardian-based horde is anti-fluff.

Martel,
If you tried to overrun the CWE list, it could go either way. Just rushing in with everything isn't your best option.

If you instead picked it apart, piece by piece, you'd destroy them handily.

Even your list would win the midrange game.

Wolfblade wrote:1. I already said it'd be fairly tough against the first list, you would probably win by virtue of using the an OP formation like the gladius

The list I proposed was a CAD. No captain, no chaplain, and the rhinos are all paid for.

Of course, the eldar player could make it closer by taking some stronger units (i.e. drop wraith blades for another wraithlord, winder riders with a 1 heavy weapon per 3, and/or some wave serpents)

Except, this is exactly what I was talking about. The eldar player has 2, and exactly 2, options:

1. Use OP bullgak

or

2. Lose

Yes, the eldar player can use both OP bullgak and utter garbage in a combination that makes the OP bullgak seem less OP due to the numbers, but that doesn't change the fact that in order to beat my non-competitive list, you'd pretty much be forced to bring things like wave serpents and jet bikes. Otherwise, you're going to get shot off the table trying to cross the no-man's land that is the entire table.

That's just part and parcel of playing Eldar. Ditto for the Tau.

or a formation or two (i.e. an aspect shrine with dark reapers/fire dragons/swooping hawks)

Supra. In order to beat my CAD, you'd have to use gak like a formation that gives you +1 BS simply for spamming a unit of your choice.

If an eldar player sticks to a CAD and doesn't spam OP gak, I win. Every time.

And it's not because my list is amazing [It's essentially average: it will stomp bad lists but get stomped by competitive ones.] It's because that's the Eldar codex. Either OP or gak. There's practically no middle ground.

I wouldn't say your lists are unbeatable with this eldar list, (chaos would be easier imo gladius harder due to the nature of it already being OP), and the only change I'd make agaisnt your gladius list is some bikes with heavy weapons (again 1 per 3, and you've brought an OP formation so I think that would help balance it out a bit)

Again, that wasn't a gladius. That was a CAD. I agree with you that you'd have to take bikes to stand a chance, but that only proves my point about the eldar codex.

John,
Spiders are nothing like ASMS, although Scorps are great analogues for ASMS with packs.

FDS are nothing like Vanguard, but they are like Combi-Sternies. Vanguard could be considered analogous to Shining Spears, though.

The list he put together would, fluff wise, be unlikely to have a Wraithlord. Balance wise, it is a good analogue.

Some forces do, fluffwise, field a lot of Guardians. Just trying to match the armor, though, can be misleading. For instance, there isn't a 3+ unit that is analogous to a 5man Tac squad with a heavy weapon. As he listed, the closest really is the Guardians.

The ASM squads in the specific list are a foot unit with CCW/pistol, who's purpose is to put a couple Melta shots into something. The only thing close to that is Storm Guardians.

CWE don't have a Rhino equivelent. Our cheapest transport is 120 points naked. It's a good transport, but not analogous really.

Bharring wrote:
Martel,
If you tried to overrun the CWE list, it could go either way. Just rushing in with everything isn't your best option.

If you instead picked it apart, piece by piece, you'd destroy them handily.

Even your list would win the midrange game.

I guess overrun was a poor choice of words. My tacs usually hide in the Rhinos firing heavy flamers, for example. By overrun, I was thinking end up your side of the board eventually. TWC they are not.

I feel like I could overrun Traditio's list, though.

Or 3,
Use moderately powerful stuff, which is neither OP nor crap. Like Hawks and Dire Avengers and Scorpions.

Or 4,
While an army full of a specific unit may be OP, an army with a limited amount of it may be fair. If the CWE list above added a Scatter Laser to one Jetbike, the list is not OP.

Just like if you had a 10000 point game and had Tiggy in it, the list isn't necessarily OP.

Or a Tau list with all Crisis Suits with no weapons except for one Riptide. Sure, the Riptide might be OP, but the list is not.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
IMO, if you're trying to match SMs directly, wouldn't you instead take mostly Sv3+ units: with Scorps/Spiders as the foot/JP AM equivalents, FDs as the Vanguard units? And no WL as the Dread-equivalent?

Or is your design brief to spam the most dudes with the least armor? IMO, a Guardian-based horde is anti-fluff.

The assertion was that it was impossible to design a list analogous to Traditio's Missile Launcher troop heavy marine list without ending up with more units that did everything better than the corresponding marines because Eldar are broken. Instead, I ended up with fewer models with lighter defenses more specialized in their roles than the marine equivalent, allowing for a well balanced matchup. Go figure, a codex with as many options as the marine codex has plenty of lower to mid tier options in it as well.

The posted list was 3x sternguard squads with no special weapons, 2x assault squads with 2x flamers in rhinos, 6x 5-man tactical squads with a ML each, 2x ML/Lascannon Dev squads, and Pedro Kantor. There was no dread, so I didn't include a wraithlord. There were other 'rough analogues' as well. Since Rhinos are about three times less expensive as Serpents, I included fewer serpents to give each army roughly the same "amount" of armor, and since Eldar have no inherent CC ability I included a CC specialist unit for Yriel to pal around with.

And yes indeed I was talking about Yriel, sorry, I always get Illic and Yriel mixed up.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's have a debate between Page 1 Traditio and Page 7 Repeatedly Proven Wrong Traditio:

"No. Practically the entire codex is a steaming pile of OP bullgak.

For one thing, practically nothing in the codex is appropriately priced, points-wise."

"If an eldar player sticks to a CAD and doesn't spam OP gak, I win. Every time.

And it's not because my list is amazing [It's essentially average: it will stomp bad lists but get stomped by competitive ones.] It's because that's the Eldar codex. Either OP or gak. There's practically no middle ground."

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:1. I already said it'd be fairly tough against the first list, you would probably win by virtue of using the an OP formation like the gladius

The list I proposed was a CAD. No captain, no chaplain, and the rhinos are all paid for.

Of course, the eldar player could make it closer by taking some stronger units (i.e. drop wraith blades for another wraithlord, winder riders with a 1 heavy weapon per 3, and/or some wave serpents)

Except, this is exactly what I was talking about. The eldar player has 2, and exactly 2, options:

1. Use OP bullgak

or

2. Lose

Yes, the eldar player can use both OP bullgak and utter garbage in a combination that makes the OP bullgak seem less OP due to the numbers, but that doesn't change the fact that in order to beat my non-competitive list, you'd pretty much be forced to bring things like wave serpents and jet bikes. Otherwise, you're going to get shot off the table trying to cross the no-man's land that is the entire table.

That's just part and parcel of playing Eldar. Ditto for the Tau.

or a formation or two (i.e. an aspect shrine with dark reapers/fire dragons/swooping hawks)

Supra. In order to beat my CAD, you'd have to use gak like a formation that gives you +1 BS simply for spamming a unit of your choice.

If an eldar player sticks to a CAD and doesn't spam OP gak, I win. Every time.

And it's not because my list is amazing. It's essentially average. It's because that's the Eldar codex. Either OP or gak. There's practically no middle ground.

I wouldn't say your lists are unbeatable with this eldar list, (chaos would be easier imo gladius harder due to the nature of it already being OP), and the only change I'd make agaisnt your gladius list is some bikes with heavy weapons (again 1 per 3, and you've brought an OP formation so I think that would help balance it out a bit)

Again, that wasn't a gladius. That was a CAD. I agree with you that you'd have to take bikes to stand a chance, but that only proves my point about the eldar codex.

1. Alright, didn't realize it was a CAD.

2. Most "bs" units in the eldar codex only seem that way compared to the rest of the codex. I.e. dark reapers are pretty good, but are out shined simply by the number of bikes that can fielded. And no, jet bikes aren't OP, they're a little undercosted, and the ability for everyone to grab a heavy is what makes them OP. However, without that, they're not OP, same with wave serpents. They're good, but they also pay for it by being fairly expensive for a transport. Honestly, how is it OP? Because it's better than a rhino or razorback?

3. Lets not discuss Tau, as (IIRC) you think crisis suits are OP, as are fire warriors with their better shooting than marines)

4. I highly doubt it, I'm pretty sure this list would give you trouble:

HQ:
1x Farseer w/ singing spear

Elites:
10x Wraithblades w/ Axe/shield
10x Banshee inc exarch w/ executioner

Troops:

2x 10 Dire avenger inc exarch, wave serpent w/ ghostwalk, holo fields, shuri cannon
2x 5 rangers

HS:
3x 5 Dark Reapers inc exarch, all with starshot missiles

OP? Doubt it. It's a decent list. List is fairly mid range to close range, with Avengers having an 18" range, shrui cannons only being 24", rangers being sued to help kill off any special weapons, farseer for the extra warp charges, Dark Reapers being used to pop transports, wraith blades screening banshees, and the farseer most likely will go with the blades and hope for fortune to either make them, or the banshees more durable. No bikes, No WKs, 2 wave serpents (oh no! the entire list is broken by mid range fire support!), 15 missiles as the only non melee S7+, a squad could easily be swapped out for a wraithlord w/ glaive, and 2 star cannons leaving 40 points left over for whatever. Points wise, troops are a total of 690 followed only by HS at 615, elites at 437, HQ at 105, total of 1847

Advice: quit using devastators and you will start doing better almost immediately. Yes, they're that bad.

Yeah, you would wind up on their side most likely. You long range is mediocre. But your midrange has some kick. More than enough to force him to engage on your terms. Where you would destroy.

The game would start with a furious blur around his attempt to get in range of you. You'd then force him to divide and be conquered or castle and get templated by pushing with your threats cautiously, and bringing in the Dreads from other directions.

He's forced to expose his big stuff and watch them die fast, or hide behind his small stuff, which you destroy easily without giving him a chance to bring his big stuff to bear.

The game would end when you charged the last impotent CWE unit, doing its best to hide.

In my head, it plays out as a beautiful game, even if "my" forces are getting destroyed.

Wolfblade wrote:2. Most "bs" units in the eldar codex only seem that way compared to the rest of the codex. I.e. dark reapers are pretty good, but are out shined simply by the number of bikes that can fielded.

I'm including dark reapers in with the "OP bullgak" units.

25 ppm. 2 S5, AP 3 shots a piece at 48 inch range. They can move and shoot at full BS. And they have 3+ armor. That makes a heavy bolter marine sad. Real sad.

And no, jet bikes aren't OP, they're a little undercosted

17 ppm is a joke. There's no "a little" about it.

However, without that, they're not OP, same with wave serpents. They're good, but they also pay for it by being fairly expensive for a transport.

Fast skimmer. 12 front and side AV. A serpent shield that can only be used once, but still can put out a ridiculous amount of fire power, ignores cover AND is pinning. And down grades pens to glances on a 2+.

Nope. Nothing OP about that at all. [/sarcasm]

3. Lets not discuss Tau, as (IIRC) you think crisis suits are OP, as are fire warriors with their better shooting than marines)

I've reassessed my opinion of crisis suits. Crisis suits aren't OP. My lists back then were just terrible.

Imho, the only really OP things in the Tau codex are the riptides and the super-heavies.

But consider what happens if I ask you to build a Tau list that doesn't have a riptide or a superheavy in it.

You lose. Badly.

Take as many crisis suits as you want. They're all going to die. Every. Last. One.

Yeah, you really can't hide from BA for long. They are fast, if nothing else. Pay the points for dozers and armor on Rhinos and you can go almost anywhere super fast.

AV 13 dreads with 4 attacks and move through cover and rerolling charges vs vehicles are actually a good unit now. They would be excellent without hull points. But AV 13 is high enough that many weapons can't inflict said hull points fast enough.

Wolfblade wrote:4. I highly doubt it, I'm pretty sure this list would give you trouble:

HQ:
1x Farseer w/ singing spear

Elites:
10x Wraithblades w/ Axe/shield
10x Banshee inc exarch w/ executioner

Troops:

2x 10 Dire avenger inc exarch, wave serpent w/ ghostwalk, holo fields, shuri cannon
2x 5 rangers

HS:
3x 5 Dark Reapers inc exarch, all with starshot missiles

OP? Doubt it. It's a decent list. List is fairly mid range to close range, with Avengers having an 18" range, shrui cannons only being 24", rangers being sued to help kill off any special weapons, farseer for the extra warp charges, Dark Reapers being used to pop transports, wraith blades screening banshees, and the farseer most likely will go with the blades and hope for fortune to either make them, or the banshees more durable.

The list that you've proposed has three OP units: dark reapers, wave serpents and farseers. Replace those with non-OP units, and the list is terrible.

"The list that you've proposed has three OP units: dark reapers, wave serpents and farseers. "

Those units aren't OP, merely solid. They can be overcome, even by BA and CSM.

And what are you going to replace your Tac Marines, Rhinos, and Sternies with?

After all, they are OP compared to Rangers and Wraithblades...

OP is relative. And matters on the list level when comparing lists. Only on the unit level when assembling lists.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:2. Most "bs" units in the eldar codex only seem that way compared to the rest of the codex. I.e. dark reapers are pretty good, but are out shined simply by the number of bikes that can fielded.

I'm including dark reapers in with the "OP bullgak" units.

25 ppm. 2 S5, AP 3 shots a piece at 48 inch range. They can move and shoot at full BS. And they have 3+ armor. That makes a heavy bolter marine sad. Real sad.

And no, jet bikes aren't OP, they're a little undercosted

17 ppm is a joke. There's no "a little" about it.

However, without that, they're not OP, same with wave serpents. They're good, but they also pay for it by being fairly expensive for a transport.

Fast skimmer. 12 front and side AV. A serpent shield that can only be used once, but still can put out a ridiculous amount of fire power, ignores cover AND is pinning. And down grades pens to glances on a 2+.

Nope. Nothing OP about that at all. [/sarcasm]

3. Lets not discuss Tau, as (IIRC) you think crisis suits are OP, as are fire warriors with their better shooting than marines)

I've reassessed my opinion of crisis suits. Crisis suits aren't OP. My lists back then were just terrible.

Imho, the only really OP things in the Tau codex are the riptides and the super-heavies.

But consider what happens if I ask you to build a Tau list that doesn't have a riptide or a superheavy in it.

You lose. Badly.

Take as many crisis suits as you want. They're all going to die. Every. Last. One.

Also can't overwatch, can't run and die incredibly fast in cc considering they can cost over 30ppm.

Your dev can overwatch, run to reposition better, fight off some cc attackers, fight vehicles, can take spare wounds, can give a model bs5 and twin linked for a turn. Before you point out an exarch has bs5 I'll point out the exarch costs more than a terminator.

The "OP" Wave Serpent costs over a hundred points. You know why it has good firepower? It's priced almost as much as the actual battle tanks. It's like saying Rhino's are way undercosted for a transport. A Rhino is cheap because it lacks power. A Wave Serpent has high cost because it does not.

You know what happens against a Tau list without Riptides or super heavies? You play a game and see who wins. It isn't a flat win or lose thing.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Bharring wrote:
It's not the Heavy that stops them from running. Even if they don't fire (never seen that happen), SnP doesn't allow running.

Is it not both that prevents running? Pretty sure a ranger can't snipe with his rifle and then run. I could be mistaken and don't have my book in front of me.

There are a few things that are preventing Dark Reapers from using Battle Focus.

1. it only works with Heavy Weapons if the model has Relentless.
2. Slow and Purposeful disallows a unit from Running.
3. This is the big one - Dark Reapers do not have Battle Focus.

I was too slow and purpose-filled to remember that. I'm surethane Wild is heavy with regret for forgetting.

pm713 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:2. Most "bs" units in the eldar codex only seem that way compared to the rest of the codex. I.e. dark reapers are pretty good, but are out shined simply by the number of bikes that can fielded.

I'm including dark reapers in with the "OP bullgak" units.

25 ppm. 2 S5, AP 3 shots a piece at 48 inch range. They can move and shoot at full BS. And they have 3+ armor. That makes a heavy bolter marine sad. Real sad.

And no, jet bikes aren't OP, they're a little undercosted

17 ppm is a joke. There's no "a little" about it.

However, without that, they're not OP, same with wave serpents. They're good, but they also pay for it by being fairly expensive for a transport.

Fast skimmer. 12 front and side AV. A serpent shield that can only be used once, but still can put out a ridiculous amount of fire power, ignores cover AND is pinning. And down grades pens to glances on a 2+.

Nope. Nothing OP about that at all. [/sarcasm]

3. Lets not discuss Tau, as (IIRC) you think crisis suits are OP, as are fire warriors with their better shooting than marines)

I've reassessed my opinion of crisis suits. Crisis suits aren't OP. My lists back then were just terrible.

Imho, the only really OP things in the Tau codex are the riptides and the super-heavies.

But consider what happens if I ask you to build a Tau list that doesn't have a riptide or a superheavy in it.

You lose. Badly.

Take as many crisis suits as you want. They're all going to die. Every. Last. One.

Also can't overwatch, can't run and die incredibly fast in cc considering they can cost over 30ppm.

Your dev can overwatch, run to reposition better, fight off some cc attackers, fight vehicles, can take spare wounds, can give a model bs5 and twin linked for a turn. Before you point out an exarch has bs5 I'll point out the exarch costs more than a terminator.

The "OP" Wave Serpent costs over a hundred points. You know why it has good firepower? It's priced almost as much as the actual battle tanks. It's like saying Rhino's are way undercosted for a transport. A Rhino is cheap because it lacks power. A Wave Serpent has high cost because it does not.

You know what happens against a Tau list without Riptides or super heavies? You play a game and see who wins. It isn't a flat win or lose thing.

As someone who has played tau since 4th, I can tell you I have won MANY games, and some tournies, with no tides, and now no surges. One of my best out-of-the-box lists has 3 units of sniper drones and aunva... Most competitive play comes down to the general, not the units (though that isn't to say you can win with a turd, as a turd will always be a turd lol)

As for Eldar, a buddy of mine has repeatedly used 3 units of scorpions and they are SO much better than people give them credit. The only unfortunate unit in the codex I see is banshees, there is just no good way to use them with no run and charge and no open topped or assult vehicle transport :/

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:4. I highly doubt it, I'm pretty sure this list would give you trouble:

HQ:
1x Farseer w/ singing spear

Elites:
10x Wraithblades w/ Axe/shield
10x Banshee inc exarch w/ executioner

Troops:

2x 10 Dire avenger inc exarch, wave serpent w/ ghostwalk, holo fields, shuri cannon
2x 5 rangers

HS:
3x 5 Dark Reapers inc exarch, all with starshot missiles

OP? Doubt it. It's a decent list. List is fairly mid range to close range, with Avengers having an 18" range, shrui cannons only being 24", rangers being sued to help kill off any special weapons, farseer for the extra warp charges, Dark Reapers being used to pop transports, wraith blades screening banshees, and the farseer most likely will go with the blades and hope for fortune to either make them, or the banshees more durable.

The list that you've proposed has three OP units: dark reapers, wave serpents and farseers. Replace those with non-OP units, and the list is terrible.

OP my ass. I also stated you could reduce the dark reapers and swap in a wraithlord, hell you could even swap in 3 giving it more of a melee presences, then add something worth 120 points, like another barebones wave serpent? Farseer is literally the only psychic support in the list, and is incredibly easy to kill with a 4++ and t3 and 3 wounds, especially when put with a MELEE ONLY SQUAD, and not even rolling for invisibility. Wave Serpents cost in this list cost 145pts, so they better have SOMETHING for only a transport capacity of 12, no firing points and not opened topped. Hell I didn't even put on scatter lasers on them for cheap long range firepower, or starcannons for the AP2. And there's TWO of them. If your missile spam can't kill them at 24inches, I can't help you, especially when they're not even that dangerous in this list, except for the one turn where they pop their shield.

Can you even name why those units are "OP"? A decent comparison of a similar tank?

pm713 wrote:Also can't overwatch, can't run and die incredibly fast in cc considering they can cost over 30ppm.

Pointing these things out is simply disingenuous, since these things are not likely to come up very often. So what if your dark reapers can't overwatch? They fire at 48 inch range. So what if they can't run? They have 48 inch range and slow and purposeful. So what if they are bad at CC? They have 48 inch range, and if your opponent is deepstriking or drop-podding something in specifically to kill them in close combat, my devastator marines won't do much better than your dark reapers.

25 ppm simply does not properly assess their actual in-game utility. Especially vs. MEQs.

Your dev can overwatch, run to reposition better, fight off some cc attackers, fight vehicles, can take spare wounds, can give a model bs5 and twin linked for a turn. Before you point out an exarch has bs5 I'll point out the exarch costs more than a terminator.

You're mistaken about the twin-linked thing. If you have an SM opponent who uses the signum to twin-link one of his heavy weapons, he's either misinformed or cheating. Signum only boosts the shooting to BS 5. If he's getting re-rolls to hit, he's either using Ultramarines chapter tactics or a librarian (or both).

At any rate, the rest of what you said is simply irrelevant if we are attending solely to intended combat roles. My devs can overwatch, but so what? If they're getting assaulted, it's over for them. If they're running, they're not shooting. And if they're even moving normally to reposition themselves, they're snapshooting.

Do you realize how busted my devastator squads would be if they had slow and purposeful?

And you also fail to note how your autarch has AP 3 barrage blasts.

The "OP" Wave Serpent costs over a hundred points. You know why it has good firepower? It's priced almost as much as the actual battle tanks. It's like saying Rhino's are way undercosted for a transport. A Rhino is cheap because it lacks power. A Wave Serpent has high cost because it does not.

Would you prefer a 110 point predator, appropriately geared out, or a 110 point wave serpent?