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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Yeah, I'd like to see something set Bladestorm apart from Rending. Fluffwise, it really should just be Shred AP4, since it literally shreds you

I like this a lot better for blade-storm. That's what shurikens should be doing - wrecking light/med infantry like nobodies buisness.

10 DA with shred generate 10 wounds vs meqs, yielding 3.333 kills.

Currently, 10 DA generate 2.22 rends, and 4.444 regular wounds for a total of 3.7 kills.

Not a huge improvement, but it gets stupid vs 4+ armor.

And Orkz.

Can you imagine the Ork tears from putting Shred on basic T4 weapons?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DA and Guardians would need something to compensate if it just went away, but I wouldn't mind too much.

I would say make it AP 3, but that helps units I don't want helped.

It also creates an odd breakpoint.

Possibly reroll 1s to wound?

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Yeah, I'd like to see something set Bladestorm apart from Rending. Fluffwise, it really should just be Shred AP4, since it literally shreds you

I like this a lot better for blade-storm. That's what shurikens should be doing - wrecking light/med infantry like nobodies buisness.

10 DA with shred generate 10 wounds vs meqs, yielding 3.333 kills.

Currently, 10 DA generate 2.22 rends, and 4.444 regular wounds for a total of 3.7 kills.

Not a huge improvement, but it gets stupid vs 4+ armor.

Shred also doesn't stack with doom. When you get to fish for 6's twice...it gets stupid.

AP3 on a 6?

pm713 wrote:
AP3 on a 6?

Yeah, instead of AP2. Except that is helps a lot of units that I don't want helped.

Soo.... the OP question has been answered, that Eldar can be played as non-cheese, and now we're just wishlisting?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Soo.... the OP question has been answered, that Eldar can be played as non-cheese, and now we're just wishlisting?

Pretty much.

OK, just checking.

I feel like we found there is a lot more agreement out there than originally assumed.

The 10 pages weren't a total loss.

Bharring wrote:
I feel like we found there is a lot more agreement out there than originally assumed.

The 10 pages weren't a total loss.

To me it read more like people upset about marines failing to kill every other unit without breaking a sweat, protected by plot armor.

 Stephanius wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I feel like we found there is a lot more agreement out there than originally assumed.

The 10 pages weren't a total loss.

To me it read more like people upset about marines failing to kill every other unit without breaking a sweat, protected by plot armor.

Then your're reading it wrong. The scatterbike threatens a lot more than marines trivially. Cheap S6 is way too good in 7th ed because it basically kills everything in the game. And then the WK.

Martel732 wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I feel like we found there is a lot more agreement out there than originally assumed.

The 10 pages weren't a total loss.

To me it read more like people upset about marines failing to kill every other unit without breaking a sweat, protected by plot armor.

Then your're reading it wrong. The scatterbike threatens a lot more than marines trivially. Cheap S6 is way too good in 7th ed because it basically kills everything in the game. And then the WK.

Yeah, a unit of 3 kills 2.22 Marines with one round of shooting, while the marines kill only 1.11 Jetbikes - assuming 10 bolter shots - 2.22 Jetbikes in Rapid Fire range.
The marines have improved Fearless, the Windriders LD 8. Windriders are strong on the offense, but die just like tactical marines and are much more vulnerable to fleeing off the board.

The WK is undercosted in 7th, which isn't really an issue unless someone brings a bunch of them.
After all, GW does assign point values using wild guesses and messes up the process by handing out free gear and a boatload of special rules willy nilly.

This thread had people complain about a number of other units though - psykers, reapers - which is hilarious especially from SM players. Imperial Psykers are the best channelers in the game, get force, cost less, protect their neighbouring units and have access to more disciplines. A reaper exarch that misses (2/3 chance) is unlikely to hit any models that turn.

Not to nitpick, Stephanius, but in what way do you figure a DR exarch has 2/3 chance to miss? Are you talking scatter, in which case wouldn't you factor in subtracting his BS of usually 5?

No one fields just three. And again, the versatility of the scatterlaser in 7th is abusive.

A single WK ends the game for the have-not codices.

Marines flee off the board like any other unit. They just don't get swept in assaults that either don't happen because scatterbike or can't win because WK. ATSKNF is basically useless in 7th because marines just die enmasee to shooting. No assaults necessary.

Martel732 wrote:
No one fields just three. And again, the versatility of the scatterlaser in 7th is abusive.

A single WK ends the game for the have-not codices.

Marines flee off the board like any other unit. They just don't get swept in assaults that either don't happen because scatterbike or can't win because WK. ATSKNF is basically useless in 7th because marines just die enmasee to shooting. No assaults necessary.

That's funny, because I was under the impression that you got some other kind of auto-rally with full capability function the following turn. I must have been imagining that, I'm sure ATSKNF isn't the strongest free morale ability in the game.

Dead marines dont rally.

Martel732 wrote:
Dead marines dont rally.

Can I have that on a T shirt or something?

ATSKNF is good for 1 thing - not getting swept in assault. Keep in mind this causes more harm than good most of the time. Also keep in mind it does not save you from the worst part of falling back - falling off the board! Fearless is 100% better.

A Dev squad at the board edge might fall off. Podding backfield, holding midfield, or advancing up a flank all make it so the Tac squad has no chance to run off the board.

Bharring wrote:
A Dev squad at the board edge might fall off. Podding backfield, holding midfield, or advancing up a flank all make it so the Tac squad has no chance to run off the board.

Irrelevant when they're all dead. Which is what Eldar make them. There is no holding midfield against Eldar unless you've got 500 pts of free transports.

Even with less "cheesy" lists?

Bharring wrote:
Even with less "cheesy" lists?

Maybe. But remember that BA also have this rule and it does diddly squat for us. ATSKNF does not make the meq statline any more viable vs hardcore Xeno firepower. Lack of ATSKNF doesn't help Xenos back at all in 7th. In 3rd, sure. But not anymore. It's a trash rule.

Sure, against cheesetastic firepower, the squad is lilely to be wiped. But against less-than-cheese, it takes a nontrivial amount of firepower to wipe a full Tac squad.

Marines might see more full unit wipes than other forces largely because its typically the last few Marines that matter. The first few deaths do little.

Compare this to most Xenos. First, the first few kills typically reduce the squad's effectiveness fully, instead of just being ablative wounds. Then, to add to this, why kill the last 3 guys in a Xenos squad when they can kill 4 from another squad?. Add to that, if you kill a couple guys from a xenos squad, you have about a 35% chance of rendering them useless for at least a whole round. Not so with Marines.

Ive had a 10man DA squad break top of 1, and get assaulted before they could fire full BS again, just because 4 CSM shot them with boltguns outside rapid fire range. Sure, that specifically is rare. But that thing isnt even possible for Marines.

Bharring wrote:
Sure, against cheesetastic firepower, the squad is lilely to be wiped. But against less-than-cheese, it takes a nontrivial amount of firepower to wipe a full Tac squad.

Marines might see more full unit wipes than other forces largely because its typically the last few Marines that matter. The first few deaths do little.

Compare this to most Xenos. First, the first few kills typically reduce the squad's effectiveness fully, instead of just being ablative wounds. Then, to add to this, why kill the last 3 guys in a Xenos squad when they can kill 4 from another squad?. Add to that, if you kill a couple guys from a xenos squad, you have about a 35% chance of rendering them useless for at least a whole round. Not so with Marines.

Ive had a 10man DA squad break top of 1, and get assaulted before they could fire full BS again, just because 4 CSM shot them with boltguns outside rapid fire range. Sure, that specifically is rare. But that thing isnt even possible for Marines.

Everyone sees more unit wipes because 7th ed. The marines just lose out on one of their purported advantages because of this.

the_scotsman wrote:
Not to nitpick, Stephanius, but in what way do you figure a DR exarch has 2/3 chance to miss? Are you talking scatter, in which case wouldn't you factor in subtracting his BS of usually 5?

Sorry for being unclear. Yes, I meant firing the Tempest Launcher without LOS. I find that deployed visible isn't great combined with T3 and 4 wounds - assuming a minimum squad of 3 elves at 110 points.

The bottom line is that when more and more weapons treat a marine like a grot, the biggest losers are the marines. Yes, it sucks for other models, but marines still lose the most. That's not to say the marines don't have their own counter-cheese, but 500 pts of free vehicles to be good basically says the basic marine is garbage now. It's a white flag from GW.

Martel732 wrote:
No one fields just three. And again, the versatility of the scatterlaser in 7th is abusive.

A single WK ends the game for the have-not codices.

I have yet to buy any Jetbikes. At all.

I have a single WK, and I have yet to see it auto-win when I've played it.

I should play my Eldar more often!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No one fields just three. And again, the versatility of the scatterlaser in 7th is abusive.

A single WK ends the game for the have-not codices.

I have yet to buy any Jetbikes. At all.

I have a single WK, and I have yet to see it auto-win when I've played it.

I should play my Eldar more often!

Guess you don't play many have-not codices. BA have no way to engage a WK efficiently, and I doubt Ork or CSM do, either.