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Martel732 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No one fields just three. And again, the versatility of the scatterlaser in 7th is abusive.

A single WK ends the game for the have-not codices.

I have yet to buy any Jetbikes. At all.

I have a single WK, and I have yet to see it auto-win when I've played it.

I should play my Eldar more often!

Guess you don't play many have-not codices. BA have no way to engage a WK efficiently, and I doubt Ork or CSM do, either.

I play games against people who are cool, not guys who spend all their time complaining about how Eldars are b0rken!!11

There is additional value in threads like this in realizing what is typically better than what. Which makes it easier to scale to your local meta.

Scaling to the local meta goes a long way to make the meta more friendly, healthy, and enjoyable.

My lists would get wiped off the table in Martel's meta, but do just fine here.

Heck, my SM lists are typically PA spam in a CAD, and do well here too.

To the original question, I play lists that my opponents appreciate as not-cheese quite frequently. The game can be played in an interesting and fair way if the internet prejudice against my long eared toy soldiers is left on the vacuum tubes.

My dream is have a sizeable force of eldar that has no "cheese". Heavily Vehicle based. Yme-Loc Craftworld theme. But I feel like the following would be considered "cheese" when 6 falcons no scatter deepstrike turn 2 and unload 30 dire avengers to annihilate the entire backfield and a good chunk of vehicles.

Autarch on a jetbike
Farseer on a jetbike
2 squads of dire avengers in Wave Serpents
2 squads of falcons - 3 falcons per squad
2 dire avenger shrines
2 squads of 1 hornets

Additionally, I would like to add - for flavour and larger games
2 squads of 1 hornets
1 aspect host of banshees
1 aspect host of striking scorpions
1 lynx
3 warp hunters
3 crimson hunters
1 hemlock
1 scorpion

That's not cheese. 6 falcons have Imperial-esque weapons and can do limited damage. Dire avengers are strong for troops, but are vulnerable to counter fire at T3 4+ save. It's actually more terrifying for an MC list than a vehicle list.

Martel732 wrote:
That's not cheese. 6 falcons have Imperial-esque weapons and can do limited damage. Dire avengers are strong for troops, but are vulnerable to counter fire at T3 4+ save. It's actually more terrifying for an MC list than a vehicle list.

FYI - falcons have 1 pulse laser - 2 str 8 ap 2 shots, 1 scatter laser - 4 6/6 shots, 1 shuruken cannon - 3 6/5 shots with potential for ap2. They deep strike in and would be hitting rear armor. or MCs. and their in a squadron - to thats that amount of firing x 3.

anyway, thanks for not thinking its cheese.

Depends on how you build them.

They have Pulse Laser, one hardpoint for any standard Heavy, and a hull-mounted TL ShuriCat that can be upgraded to a Cannon (no TL).

For the cost, that's not incredible firepower. Solid, but not earthshattering. That whole deepstrike might kill one Riptide. Think about that. Savvy players will bubblewrap and use the table edge to deny you the most optimal shots.

Naaris wrote:
My dream is have a sizeable force of eldar that has no "cheese". Heavily Vehicle based. Yme-Loc Craftworld theme. But I feel like the following would be considered "cheese" when 6 falcons no scatter deepstrike turn 2 and unload 30 dire avengers to annihilate the entire backfield and a good chunk of vehicles.

Autarch on a jetbike
Farseer on a jetbike
2 squads of dire avengers in Wave Serpents
2 squads of falcons - 3 falcons per squad
2 dire avenger shrines
2 squads of 1 hornets

Additionally, I would like to add - for flavour and larger games
2 squads of 1 hornets
1 aspect host of banshees
1 aspect host of striking scorpions
1 lynx
3 warp hunters
3 crimson hunters
1 hemlock
1 scorpion

Since you have a Psyker, jetbikes, and wave serpents according to one person, your list is cheesy.

 Happyjew wrote:

Naaris wrote:
My dream is have a sizeable force of eldar that has no "cheese". Heavily Vehicle based. Yme-Loc Craftworld theme. But I feel like the following would be considered "cheese" when 6 falcons no scatter deepstrike turn 2 and unload 30 dire avengers to annihilate the entire backfield and a good chunk of vehicles.

Autarch on a jetbike
Farseer on a jetbike
2 squads of dire avengers in Wave Serpents
2 squads of falcons - 3 falcons per squad
2 dire avenger shrines
2 squads of 1 hornets

Additionally, I would like to add - for flavour and larger games
2 squads of 1 hornets
1 aspect host of banshees
1 aspect host of striking scorpions
1 lynx
3 warp hunters
3 crimson hunters
1 hemlock
1 scorpion

Since you have a Psyker, jetbikes, and wave serpents according to one person, your list is cheesy.

They'd call a Harlequins shooting cheesy though.

 Happyjew wrote:


Since you have a Psyker, jetbikes, and wave serpents according to one person, your list is cheesy.

Wow so HQ's on jet bikes = cheese? not just scatbikes? wave serpents too! i thought that was just last ed....wow okay....

Is it the cheese of the codex or the people that everyone has the misfortune of playing against that give people these opinions? Are Eldar players natural min/maxers?

Well thet CAN get AP2 Fleshbane or S8 AP2 Melta guns on every single member of their most basic troops.

Thats the kind of firepower cheese only knifeears would think is OK!

Naaris wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:


Since you have a Psyker, jetbikes, and wave serpents according to one person, your list is cheesy.

Wow so HQ's on jet bikes = cheese? not just scatbikes? wave serpents too! i thought that was just last ed....wow okay....

Is it the cheese of the codex or the people that everyone has the misfortune of playing against that give people these opinions? Are Eldar players natural min/maxers?

He means there's a particular person on these boards that will call it cheese no matter the actual list, because to that person psykers are cheese, jetbikes are cheese (in all forms), and I don't think I've personally seen the person in question call wave serpents cheese, but I'm willing to believe it's been done. Maybe because of the serpent shield?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Well thet CAN get AP2 Fleshbane or S8 AP2 Melta guns on every single member of their most basic troops.

Thats the kind of firepower cheese only knifeears would think is OK!

Careful m8, before I cutcha with my ears!

There was talk about Waveserpents being OP upthread.

If you go back a few pages there are far tamer lists than that which were called cheese, but only by a few.

And your ears are S8 Rending, because Eldar. The DE version is only S4 AP7, though.

Bharring wrote:
There was talk about Waveserpents being OP upthread.

If you go back a few pages there are far tamer lists than that which were called cheese, but only by a few.

And your ears are S8 Rending, because Eldar. The DE version is only S4 AP7, though.

With Poison, never forget the poison!

Honestly the more people completely forget about competitive play the better, I run an Aspect Warrior army, without the formations because none of them quite fit for what I want, based around Shadow Spectres. I've had a lot of fun with this army and though I've won my games with them, they have been incredibly close (even against a toned down Crimson Fist Gladius).

Also, its not all about strong vs weak.

Ive noticed that different players like different things in their games.

Against SM players, if you spend all game mere inches from being assaulted, and give as good as you get, and its close all game, the SM player tends to enjoy it.

Against Ork players, that slippery devilishness that the SM player might feel is engaging would instead be infuriating. It gets in the way of a good krumpkng. Even if they win, they dont seem to enjoy the game.

On the other hand, of you use your shooting to trim down the Orkz, and corral them to where you want them, then assault into them with several units at once (while they still have enough models to be a fight - it can be solidly in your favor, but not 15 squads assaulting 2 Boyz), win or lose, the Ork player has fun.

Do the same thing to an SM player, and if you destroy them in CC, unless its close, he might not enjoy it.

Different strokes for different folks.

(I truly meant Ork players and SM players, not necessarily Ork and SM armies. If you pay attention to your meta, they're usually the same thing.)

Further, an equal-power force of exclusively one unit (lets say spammed Dark Reapers) and a mix of units (one unit of each aspect) play out very differently. Expecially when you destroy the opponent.

In the first case, he has no choices. He can engage unit A or B, but they are the same. He can try to maneuver, but the same threat is everywhere. He has no choice. He just sits there and watches it happen.

Now, even if the Swordwind list tables him just as hard, he gets to pick if he wants to pursue the Hawks or Reapers. To shoot the Spiders or Banshees. He can try to maneuver you. He can try to pick the matchups. Its a back-and-forth game. So, ive found, diversity makes your opponent enjoy the game much more, especially if you destroy him.

So, know your meta. Build for that powerlevel and for their interests. Pay attention to who you're fighting in casual games, not just what youre facing. And give him options, even if none of them are good. Do these things and your list seems less cheesy, at any power/skill/cheese level.