New legion astartes book

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**taemu_touhi**

Saw this post on the News and Rumours forum, and been trying to find it in the Warhammer 30k forums. But with no luck. So I thought I will just put here.

Thamor wrote:
Some red book changes thanks to Garro over on the Heresy forums

so I've spent the last hour or so cross referencing the new army list with the old one and have these to share with you all.

unit prices referenced are either increases or decreases compared to their original price, rather than their actual price.

Age of darkness rules changes

the ‘imperial armour units in age of darkness games’ rule has been replaced. Instead of ‘any unit’ it is now a fixed list of units.

Clarification of having multiple characters with the ‘must be warlord’ rule. Simply put, you can’t. Only primarchs override this.

Tank squadrons have command tank upgrade which is +10pts over old price

tankes with pintile-mounted options have multi-meltas added for same price as havoc launcher

HQ choices

moritat chain fire rules updated to include the overheat rules from the jan 2016 FAQ

legion command squad base cost is -25pts

additional LCS members are -5pts

Elites choices

veteran tactical squads -25ps to base cost

veteran marines are -3pts each

VTS has additional weapons from FAQ added

techmarines are -10pts each base

servo-automata has heavy bolter, multi-melta, and missile launcher added to their wargear options

apothecarion detachment has list of units removed, may join any unit will ‘legiones astartes’ rule that isn’t in terminator armour or have the daemon rule.

Apothecarion detahment can purhcase jump packs and SM bikes, allowing them to join like equipped units.

Dreadnoughts all have +1 attack (to base 3) as per FAQ

Volkite culverins in contemtpor dreads replaced with the twin-linked version

legion rapier squads thudd guns only have frag rounds to start with. May purchase additional rounds as in book 6, including phosphex

troops choices

legion tacticals squads are -25pts base

legion assault squads are -75pts base

additional assault marines are -2pts each

breacher squad -25pts base

additional breacher marines are +5pts each

tactical support squad can take additonal close combat weapon for 2pts

rotor cannon and volkite charger upgrades are now free upgrades

reconnaissance squad is -25pts base

dedicated transports

legion dreadnought drop pods are +35pts

fast attacks

legion seekers are -20pts base

additional marines are +5pts

sunfury missiles on lightning is +10pts

kraken missiles are +10pts

phosphex bomb cluster -10pts

electromagnetic bomb charges are -10pts

tarantula’s are +5pts each

tarantula squads lose forward deployment

dreadclaw drop pods +15pts

dreadclaw listed as only carrying regular and contemptor dreads, not leviathan or dreadeo types

land speeders are -10pts each

hunter killer missiles are -5pts each now

javelins are -20pts each

javelins gain strafing run USR

units attacking a javelin in combat suffer a -2 to hit while it isn’t immobilsed

heavy support units

new jetbike unit

just regular jetbikers with multi-melta as basic, base squad is +30pts over normal jetbike squad

may only go to 5 men in total, additional men are +15pts over normal jetbikers

may upgrade to volkite or plasma for cost, all of the squad must be the same

may take sergeant upgrade

deathstorm drop pod has automated weapons rule, basically old rule of automatically shooting all units within range (enemy or friend) when it arrives.

LR phobos is -25pts

proteus is -20pts

land raider achillies can take thudd gun ammos same as rapiers, at same price

achillies-alpha can take additonal ammo types

vindicators are now squadrons as in book 6. with additional rules from FAQ

spartan is +10pts

laser destoryers are free upgrades on spartan

flare shield is +20pts over old price

sicaran venator may take second pintle-mounted weapon (full list)

sicaran is +30pts and can take a pintle mounted weapon

Kharybdis is -25pts

deredeo dreadnought has third arm option, heavy lascannon option str10, ap2 heavy 2, exoshock

exoshock means if a hit scores a penetrating hit, then on a 4+ a second automatic pen is caused ignoring cover

whirlwind scopius can take pintle-mounted weapons

malcador is now heavy support with -25pts base cost

battlespeed now allows it to fire its main weapon (top turret) at full BS skill before or after moving flat out.

Malcador is 1-3 in squadrons

malcador receives wider wargear selection covering basic stuff like pintle-mounted weapons

lords of war

typhon is +45pts base

falchion is +25pts

flachion can take a neutron wave capacitor which adds the ‘feed back’ and ‘shock pulse’ special rules to it’s volcano cannon.

Rites of war

orbitial assault: dreadnought and contemptor talons can take dreadclaws or dreadnought droppods even in talons of 2 or 3. rapier batteries can take drop pods.

will update with any addition finds.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/4680/660641.page

**em_en_oh_pee**

HUGE shift in the game. Looks like they didn't fix the Cerberus or Destroyers, but Assault Marines just because entirely viable. Javelins too. Spartans might be a bit less obvious now, with the price hikes. Love the new Jetbike squad - it was so obvious! Seems solid. If only the bikes weren't so... phallic.

**KharnsRightHand**

Assault marine price drop and the Spartan increases kinda balance out, don't think my lists will change a whole lot. I'm getting a Kharybdis regardless, but now I just might use it more frequently than before in place of the Spartan. Javelins I was already planning on getting, so this is a nice bonus. Not to mention +1S chainaxes....S6 Inductii, yes please!

**zedmeister**

I can see a ton of fun for the World Eater Murderbus (aka Mastodon) - fill it with Chain Axe nutters and barrel it to the centre of the enemy lines. Flank it with Spartans filled with Red Butcher madmen and, well, party time!

**em_en_oh_pee**

zedmeister wrote:
I can see a ton of fun for the World Eater Murderbus (aka Mastodon) - fill it with Chain Axe nutters and barrel it to the centre of the enemy lines. Flank it with Spartans filled with Red Butcher madmen and, well, party time!

If it was 500pt. Sure. Even 600pt.

700pt? Too expensive.

And yea, KRH - S5 base and S6 for Inductii have me all hot and bothered! Glad I own 30+ chainaxes!

**zedmeister**

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

If it was 500pt. Sure. Even 600pt.

700pt? Too expensive.

Yes, not cheap, but lots of fun. Doubly so as your opponent sweats it out trying to defeat the thing as it grinds inexorably towards his lines!

**em_en_oh_pee**

zedmeister wrote:
em_en_oh_pee wrote:

If it was 500pt. Sure. Even 600pt.

700pt? Too expensive.

Yes, not cheap, but lots of fun. Doubly so as your opponent sweats it out trying to defeat the thing as it grinds inexorably towards his lines!

If it only had a Flare Shield. I prefer my eggs in two Spartans over this beast, but the Mastodon is definitely a gorgeous kit.

**gorgon**

KharnsRightHand wrote:
Assault marine price drop and the Spartan increases kinda balance out, don't think my lists will change a whole lot. I'm getting a Kharybdis regardless, but now I just might use it more frequently than before in place of the Spartan. Javelins I was already planning on getting, so this is a nice bonus. Not to mention +1S chainaxes....S6 Inductii, yes please!

And don't forget about the tacticals points drop. It's a double buff for WE.

**Casti**

Is any knight able to be taken as a lord of war for a legion list or is there a specific list to choose from?

**Tamwulf**

Casti wrote:
Is any knight able to be taken as a lord of war for a legion list or is there a specific list to choose from?

Last I checked, they are their own formation. You can take them as a separate detachment in a Legion list. Funny enough, you can take a Warhound Titan as a LoW choice in a Legion list...

**em_en_oh_pee**

Casti wrote:
Is any knight able to be taken as a lord of war for a legion list or is there a specific list to choose from?

"War Machine Detachment: 1-2 Super-heavy vehicles of the same unit type, each with a Hull Points value of 8 or less, and each chosen either from the specific army list for the Primary Detachment, the Questoris Knights army list found in the Crusade Imperialis army list..."

So basically any Knight, generally speaking. Which is pretty awesome!

**jeffersonian000**

So, I'm looking through the new ebook, and something stood out - Dreadnoughts are referred to as "Ancients". While I've read this a number of times without pause, today it hit my brain funny. Why is it that some Astarte less than 300 years own is an "Ancient" when entombed in a Dreadnaught, while the 300 year old Astartes in power armour standing next to him is not?

Am I the only one finding that odd?

SJ

**pm713**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
So, I'm looking through the new ebook, and something stood out - Dreadnoughts are referred to as "Ancients". While I've read this a number of times without pause, today it hit my brain funny. Why is it that some Astarte less than 300 years own is an "Ancient" when entombed in a Dreadnaught, while the 300 year old Astartes in power armour standing next to him is not?

Am I the only one finding that odd?

SJ

Generally the Dreadnoughts are a lot older and will be from times nobody else remembers. So Ancient is a decent generic title. Like how a brand new veteran is still a Veteran despite being new to the company.

**Freytag93**

If these changes are right, that is a huge shift to most people's lists. I see at least a 200 point difference in my lists due to changes to tacicals, spartans, recon, and LRs. Lots more points for fun toys.

**em_en_oh_pee**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
So, I'm looking through the new ebook, and something stood out - Dreadnoughts are referred to as "Ancients". While I've read this a number of times without pause, today it hit my brain funny. Why is it that some Astarte less than 300 years own is an "Ancient" when entombed in a Dreadnaught, while the 300 year old Astartes in power armour standing next to him is not?

Am I the only one finding that odd?

SJ

I don't see like... any references to Ancients in my copy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Freytag93 wrote:
If these changes are right, that is a huge shift to most people's lists. I see at least a 200 point difference in my lists due to changes to tacicals, spartans, recon, and LRs. Lots more points for fun toys.

Except that Spartans went up in points generally.

No doubt FW wants to see more than double-Spartan lists.

**Brillow80**

Question
The new HS jetbike unit has Multi-melta standard and upgrades to volkite or plas for cost.

Is this cost adjusted? We're already paying more for each model and I assume this is in part due to the inbuilt multi-melta.

This would make volkite free and plasma +5 points.

If we still have to pay +10 and +15 respectively, I would consider it overpriced.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Brillow80 wrote:
Question
The new HS jetbike unit has Multi-melta standard and upgrades to volkite or plas for cost.

Is this cost adjusted? We're already paying more for each model and I assume this is in part due to the inbuilt multi-melta.

This would make volkite free and plasma +5 points.

If we still have to pay +10 and +15 respectively, I would consider it overpriced.

I don't see that logic. You are paying a premium for being able to take a whole unit of the special weapons. That won't wind up and apples-to-apples comparison for the Sky Hunter vs Sky Slayer squads.

I think 165pt for three 2+ T5 Multimelta guys is pretty solid. Not sure I would ever upgrade them to anything anyhow - except maybe to attach a Primus Med for the FNP against Plasma.

**Brillow80**

em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Brillow80 wrote:
Question
The new HS jetbike unit has Multi-melta standard and upgrades to volkite or plas for cost.

Is this cost adjusted? We're already paying more for each model and I assume this is in part due to the inbuilt multi-melta.

This would make volkite free and plasma +5 points.

If we still have to pay +10 and +15 respectively, I would consider it overpriced.

I don't see that logic. You are paying a premium for being able to take a whole unit of the special weapons. That won't wind up and apples-to-apples comparison for the Sky Hunter vs Sky Slayer squads.

I think 165pt for three 2+ T5 Multimelta guys is pretty solid. Not sure I would ever upgrade them to anything anyhow - except maybe to attach a Primus Med for the FNP against Plasma.

Oh don't get me wrong, I really like the unit. I'm just trying to understand the balance in points cost vs volume of fire that could come from a similarly equipped heavy support squadron.

Half the firepower for increased mobility at roughly the same cost (315 bike vs 335 heavy support unit) Seems logical.

If it weren't for the grenade nerf in the core rule book FAQ I would give them all melta bombs with culverines and make them dedicatedted Spartan killer unit.

**Col. Dash**

Wow, my Night Lords drop pod army might have just gotten enough points for another squad and pods or an assault squad.

A shame about the Spartan, that was a hella price increase.

**Brillow80**

Col. Dash wrote:
Wow, my Night Lords drop pod army might have just gotten enough points for another squad and pods or an assault squad.

A shame about the Spartan, that was a hella price increase.

Before I became an EC fan I was kicking around the idea of a NL army but I wanted jump pack assault units as troops and the points just didn't work. Very happy to see this change.

As for the Spartan it was a bit too beastly however I would think most of the cost decreases in the rest of the army would wash.

**Brennonjw**

I don't think we got a huge shift as much as a lot of the assault legions just got more viable.

**TheCustomLime**

Huh. Not a big shift for my Ultras since the Spartan price increases are off set by the Tac price discount. And the other Land Raider variants are looking a bit more attractive.

Surprised to see Forge World breaking away with GW's seemingly hard line stance that the basic Land Raider must always and forever be 250 points.

**Ashiraya**

The more expensive Sicaran is unfortunate. Perhaps a second Contemptor Mortis would be preferable.

The cheaper Tactical and Assault squads is very, very good for me, though.

**em_en_oh_pee**

TheCustomLime wrote:
Huh. Not a big shift for my Ultras since the Spartan price increases are off set by the Tac price discount. And the other Land Raider variants are looking a bit more attractive.

Surprised to see Forge World breaking away with GW's seemingly hard line stance that the basic Land Raider must always and forever be 250 points.

Yea, I am starting to think I might go Spartan/Phobos over Spartan/Spartan for delivering my assault units. The Phobos will die faster, but saving ~125pt might be worth it.

**zedmeister**

Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!

"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."

**Brillow80**

zedmeister wrote:
Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!

"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."

Apothecary units got nerfed too, no more tag along in cata termie command squads.

**gorgon**

Brillow80 wrote:
zedmeister wrote:
Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!

"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."

Apothecary units got nerfed too, no more tag along in cata termie command squads.

I'd say bike and jump pack options, along with the lifting of most other restrictions for joining, make it a very big net win for Apothecaries.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Brillow80 wrote:
zedmeister wrote:
Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!

"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."

Apothecary units got nerfed too, no more tag along in cata termie command squads.

They most definitely did not get nerfed - now they can go with so many units its staggering, including Marauder squads!

And it was a stretch letting them be in Termie Cmd Squads. That is some heavy RAW nonsense. This is 30k, we are better than that!

**Brillow80**

em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Brillow80 wrote:
zedmeister wrote:
Just realised drop podded leviathans have been clobbered!

"Once the Drop Pod lands, its doors are opened automatically, but the Dreadnought inside does not have to deploy out unless the controlling player wishes, and if this is the case, though it may still be targeted by shooting attacks, it may not be charged while this rule is in effect."

Apothecary units got nerfed too, no more tag along in cata termie command squads.

They most definitely did not get nerfed - now they can go with so many units its staggering, including Marauder squads!

And it was a stretch letting them be in Termie Cmd Squads. That is some heavy RAW nonsense. This is 30k, we are better than that!

They were a must take before, even more so now and gets rid of the shenanigans. It's a good change.

**Eldarain**

My 20 Assault Marines I am building around are very grateful. Did the 1 Melta Bomb per squad in assault FaQ go through for 30k?