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lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

How are the Riptides dying? Because conventional Imperial heavy weapons are basically useless, as is melta.

Lets see..

1. Psychic shriek spam.
2. CSM cabal controlling my own units.
3. Deathstars, screamer/TWC/bikes, take your pick.
4. Grav spam
5. WK's, wraith guard, really anything with D
6. Anything with a lot of vehicles, especially IK.

And this is the difference between casual an tourny players.
no sane person would field anything in that list in a casual pickup game

 Crazyterran wrote:
I think he means 'pick one of the above' rather than all 4...

I'm not so sure...

 Crazyterran wrote:
I think he means 'pick one of the above' rather than all 4...

You mustn't have seen him post before.

StarHunter25 wrote:
So based on updated changes, I'd never take one with the ion gun. It would be a slightly more mobile broadside for 3x the cost, as there would rarely be a circumstance where I'd use any nova profile but to overcharge the [nerfed] HBC. Against any loyalist SM I'd leave it at home, as I'm not handing my opponent a 200pt+ free turn 2 gravkill. I have enough mid strength ap5/4 firepower in my xv8's, drones and broadsides.(I play without non-suit infantry, CAD, no experience with dawn blade contingent)

Paying for SMS over fusion/plasma is still silly. Broadsides have to play 10 pts to upgrade from SMS to tl-plasma. Plus the thing can only fire 1 gun now (not a mc or xv8), so meh on ever taking that.

Nova Hazard still irks me. Librarians can join the massive centurion units with their point-click doomguns, buffing them considerably with psychic , while also adding better Ld, CC capability. I somewhat understand you not wanting buffmanders joining them again, but with the heavy nerfs to their performance it again seems malicious. If you're going to cut the legs off of the workhorse at least let the pony do its trick again.

And once again, since they are no longer MC, give them shas'vre ws2 and a2. if two s5 ws2 i2 cc attacks scare you, never fight space wolves.

Ack, I completely forgot to include the multi-tracker. That was an unintentional oversight, not a deliberate nerf. Didn't even think about it since literally all other suits include one (including XV88, XV25 *and* the current XV104. The current by-the-book version can shoot three weapons, if it had three weapons to shoot.) That's a mistake, it should still have its multi-tracker.

I shortened the range on the HBC because "it sits back and kills things, and I can't kill it" pretty much is the crux of all the complaints I hear about it. Folks want it to be either long-ranged, squishy artillery or close-ranged durable fire support. I like the latter more, since for the former, we already have the Broadside, Stormsurge (yeah, not squishy) and Hammerhead, and to a lesser extent, the Gunrig, Skyray and missile-armed XV8 teams.

I put a point cost on the SMS simply because of how much hate it generates. Am I correct in inferring that the SMS doesn't actually piss people off as much as I'd been led to believe?

Regarding Nova Hazard: I see the complaint that "Cents can have ICs with them, so why not". But, Cents are closer to Broadsides, really. They're better, but closer to Broadsides than Riptides. And I agree that Tiggy-stars are ridiculous.

So, lemme pose this question: If the Riptide proposed in my initial post, with the latest revisions, could be joined by Commanders, Commander Shadowsun or an Ethereal, would that be overpowered or be a vector for some other kind of abuse? I don't see much besides "always twin-linked, Ignores Cover, Tank/Monster Hunter", which is very powerful but less so than it was in 6e (when Buffmander+Riptide was officially legal and you had 72" AP2 pieplates). On the other hand, you can now have squadrons of 3 Riptides. On the gripping hand, they now have to be close enough to pretty easily be picked off with grav-cannons.

I think it's probably a little too much. Buffmanders get insane amounts of hate at both of the places I usually play, to the point where they earn as many TFG points as Stormsurges and Riptide Wing. But, my meta is weird and fairly low-cheddar.

 oldzoggy wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

How are the Riptides dying? Because conventional Imperial heavy weapons are basically useless, as is melta.

Lets see..

1. Psychic shriek spam.
2. CSM cabal controlling my own units.
3. Deathstars, screamer/TWC/bikes, take your pick.
4. Grav spam
5. WK's, wraith guard, really anything with D
6. Anything with a lot of vehicles, especially IK.

And this is the difference between casual an tourny players.
no sane person would field anything in that list in a casual pickup game

Cheese kills Cheese

 oldzoggy wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

How are the Riptides dying? Because conventional Imperial heavy weapons are basically useless, as is melta.

Lets see..

1. Psychic shriek spam.
2. CSM cabal controlling my own units.
3. Deathstars, screamer/TWC/bikes, take your pick.
4. Grav spam
5. WK's, wraith guard, really anything with D
6. Anything with a lot of vehicles, especially IK.

And this is the difference between casual an tourny players.
no sane person would field anything in that list in a casual pickup game

Believe it or not, pretty much all of the players in my local league bring things of this caliber on a weekly basis. I don't know if we are just more competitive then average but Its the only meta I know.

Personally I prefer playing against tournament quality, bring all the cheese you can manage lists, but I know not everyone is like that and I tone my lists down when I play the weaker codexes.

 Crazyterran wrote:
I think he means 'pick one of the above' rather than all 4...

If 1-3 were done, 4 would probably be unnecessary.

At any rate, I do mean that 1-3 must all be done collectively:

1. Riptides should be walkers. AV 10 all around. (T6 = AV 10).

2. They should not have an invuln save. No vehicle should.

3. They have too much fire power. This should be corrected.

They then should be given an appropriate points cost.

Sorry but why should no vehicle have an invul save? It hardly breaks the game when done properly.

pm713 wrote:
Sorry but why should no vehicle have an invul save? It hardly breaks the game when done properly.

because it would be overpowered since his basic marines can't kill it and its cheese/overpowered if he needs to change his list for any reason or need to buy new models.

pm713 wrote:
Sorry but why should no vehicle have an invul save? It hardly breaks the game when done properly.

How many vehicles can you think of that have invuln saves?

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Sorry but why should no vehicle have an invul save? It hardly breaks the game when done properly.

How many vehicles can you think of that have invuln saves?

Off the top my head two.

Edit: Scratch that. There are four if we don't count upgrades I know of.

pm713 wrote:Off the top my head two.

Edit: Scratch that. There are four if we don't count upgrades I know of.

It's very rare. I bet you that if we don't count imperial knights and titans, the number of vehicles with invulns that you can think of will drastically decrease.

As a general rule, that has been and should just be a thing:

Things with a T value get a save.

Things with an AV value don't get a save.

GW should just stick with that.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Off the top my head two.

Edit: Scratch that. There are four if we don't count upgrades I know of.

It's very rare. I bet you that if we don't count imperial knights and titans, the number of vehicles with invulns that you can think of will drastically decrease.

As a general rule, that has been and should just be a thing:

Things with a T value get a save.

Things with an AV value don't get a save.

GW should just stick with that.

Actually Knights and Titans increases the number a fair bit. Completely forgot those had invuls.

Literally every single vehicle in the Adepta Sororitas codex has a 6++, for one.

Eldar War Walkers
Dark Eldar Venoms
Harlequin Starweavers
Harlequin Voidweavers
Imperial Contemptor Dreadnoughts
Chaos Daemon Soulgrinders
Heldrakes

I'm fairly sure I'm missing some.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, seriously, Traditio: Are you suggesting that this would be a sane unit?

WS2 BS3 S4 AV10/10/10 2HP, Walker
Burst Cannon, twin-linked pulse rifle

For 190 points? (That hits every point you mentioned - AV10 no save walker, much less firepower, more expensive.)

The dang Imperial Guard pays what, 35 points for a Sentinel?

You're asking for the Riptide to be nerfed down to a Sentinel, but still be at least 181 points. That's unreasonable.

jade_angel wrote:
Literally every single vehicle in the Adepta Sororitas codex has a 6++, for one.

Eldar War Walkers
Dark Eldar Venoms
Harlequin Starweavers
Harlequin Voidweavers
Imperial Contemptor Dreadnoughts
Chaos Daemon Soulgrinders
Heldrakes

I'm fairly sure I'm missing some.

Bjorn the Fell Handed.
Space Wolf Venerable Dreadnoughts.
Eldar Skimmers.
Corsair Skimmers.

This is a big list.

A war walker is AV10 2hp, with 8 BS4 S6 shots.

Even at 60 points its not a good option.

Literally no one would take an AV 10 walker for 190 points.

War Walkers actually are very good, they're just outstripped by a couple of highly OP options.

And they have a 5++.

But yes, at 190 points, that would be completely ludicrous. Which was my point, belike.

jade_angel wrote:WS2 BS3 S4 AV10/10/10 2HP, Walker
Burst Cannon, twin-linked pulse rifle

The burst cannon needs to be nerfed. 8-12 shots on one weapon is ridiculous.

For 190 points?

As I said before, if points 1-3 were followed, my suggestion 4 isn't necessary.

Nerf the riptide until its about "as good" as a space marine dreadnought, and then give it the same price tag.

The riptide could even keep "jetpack" in its statline. I just want it to be properly priced, given the fact that "jetpack" would be in its statline.

The standard, Crisis-suit-pays-10-points burst cannon is R18 S5 AP5 Assault 4, for chaos' sake. It's a slightly faster firing heavy bolter, but with half the range and less AP. You're thinking of the heavy burst cannon, which is not what I listed. So, 4 BS3 shots at S5 AP5, 18" range, and another twin-linked rapid-fire S5 AP5 weapon with 30" range as a secondary.

Less firepower than a Crisis Suit with the typical kind of weaponry they carry.

Debatably less durable, too - T4/W2/3+ versus AV10/2HP. Do you have difficulty killing DE Venoms? If not, this thing would be a cake walk, especially considering it can't really use cover either. (No MTC. The Crisis Suit might take a wound with a 3+ armor save. The Walker-Riptide might get immobilized with no save and no Techmarines to repair it, either.)

jade_angel wrote:
The standard, Crisis-suit-pays-10-points burst cannon is R18 S5 AP5 Assault 4, for chaos' sake. It's a slightly faster firing heavy bolter, but with half the range and less AP. You're thinking of the heavy burst cannon, which is not what I listed. So, 4 BS3 shots at S5 AP5, 18" range, and another twin-linked rapid-fire S5 AP5 weapon with 30" range as a secondary.

Less firepower than a Crisis Suit with the typical kind of weaponry they carry.

Oh, I see. In that case:

Keep "jet pack" in the statline, switch out the hull points value to "3" and change the points cost to 100 or so, REALLY jack up the price for the 72 inch gun, and we've got a balanced riptide.

Traditio wants everything in the game to die to a 5 man scout squad with shotguns, and for Tactical marines to be 6's across their staus with assault 20 str D boltguns. His posts are irrelevant.

Incidentally, my original proposal deletes the 72" gun outright.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

jade_angel wrote:
Incidentally, my original proposal deletes the 72" gun outright.

I'm cool with the 72 inch gun. I just want it to be priced appropriately and put on a non-OP platform.

I would rather we not make an 85$ kit only worth 100points.

AV12, 3hp, 5++ same points cost.

I will not continue to entertain what pretty much everyone considers unreasonable suggestions.

However, consider that you're approaching this from a very different perspective than I am. You're OK with the super-powerful long-range artillery piece, as long as it goes splat when you finally get a shot at it, kinda like an IG Basilisk. But I don't think that's what a Riptide is intended to be! It's not a heavy gun platform. Tau have those: Stormsurge, Broadside, Hammerhead, Skyray. The Riptide is intended to be a close-range, highly durable fire support/linebreaker unit. Look at the fluff: it's not portrayed as a squishy thing that sits on the edge of the battlefield raining hell from on high, it's portrayed as the beastie that gets close to a fortress and soaks a few big-ass artillery hits so that the Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits behind it don't have to.

That's why I proposed nuking the 72" gun outright, replacing it with a less powerful, 24"-max-range gun, keeping the high-ROF but medium-powered gun (good for fire support up close) and keeping most of the durability, while giving it a weakness to big anti-tank weapons by removing the ability to gain a storm shield save.

I think it's unlikely in the extreme that we'll ever fully agree as long as we're thinking of such radically different roles.

lusciifi wrote:
I would rather we not make an 85$ kit only worth 100points.

AV12, 3hp, 5++ same points cost.

1. No invulns for a bloody vehicle. I stand by this.

2. The reason why the riptide is a complete pain to deal with is that it's virtually immortal. If you take away its 2+ armor save and 5+ invuln and decrease its firepower, it's a lot more manageable. I'm not sure that an 180 point price tag would be appropriate, even with AV 12 and 3 HP.

How much better would it be than dreadnought?

Quantify that and multiply it by 100.

It's virtually immortal when you're forced to shoot a pea or two at it here or there because everything's out of range, because it can sit back in the corner lobbing death, yes.

When it's forced to come up to at most 30" range, suddenly the whole damn army can range on it. Yep, it soaks up a lot of fire for a turn or maybe two - then dies. Which is kind of the point, in the way that that's kind of the point of a Land Raider.

(I freely admit that Land Raiders mostly fail at that job, but that's more or less what they're for: load something scary in it, drive it right into enemy lines, surviving almost everything until that Golden BB finally hits. Then, the scary thing gets out and does what you bought it for: killing the hells out of those heretics/xenos/traitors! )

jade_angel wrote:
I will not continue to entertain what pretty much everyone considers unreasonable suggestions.

The "everyone" that you're talking about are the (presumably Tau) players posting in this thread.

The notion that the riptide should be a walker isn't something rejected by "pretty much everyone." It's an extremely common sentiment. If I made a poll, I can guarantee you at least a 30% vote in agreement with me.

Whether or not the riptide should keep the 5+ invuln, assuming that it's a walker, is a different story. I have no clue how that would fare in public opinion. I am, however, basing myself on what's usually the case for other, comparable models.

Ditto for the firepower thing.

I will admit that my fourth suggestion was unreasonable in conjunction with the other 3.

Basically, however, this is what it comes down to for me, and this is what you're seeing a lot of protest against:

Me: Riptides should be completely average/fair for their points cost. They should be exactly as good as and comparable to similar models. Taking a riptide, like taking anything else, should be a matter of personal taste/preference, which should be no better or worse than taking any other comparable model. It should be exactly as good as a dreadnought, adjusting, of course, for points cost differences.

Tau: NO! WE WANT OUR WIN BUTTON! DONT TAKE AWAY OUR WIN BUTTON! WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY FAIR! WE LIKE HAVING UNFAIR ADVANTAGES!

However, consider that you're approaching this from a very different perspective than I am. You're OK with the super-powerful long-range artillery piece, as long as it goes splat when you finally get a shot at it, kinda like an IG Basilisk.

In point of fact, that's what the riptide already is. If you don't think that it should be, fluffwise, then so be it. But understand that I am taking a very minimalist approach to this. Take what you have. Make it comparable to similar models. And price it appropriately.

That's the bare minimum for balancing something.

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:
I would rather we not make an 85$ kit only worth 100points.

AV12, 3hp, 5++ same points cost.

1. No invulns for a bloody vehicle. I stand by this.

2. The reason why the riptide is a complete pain to deal with is that it's virtually immortal. If you take away its 2+ armor save and 5+ invuln and decrease its firepower, it's a lot more manageable. I'm not sure that an 180 point price tag would be appropriate, even with AV 12 and 3 HP.

How much better would it be than dreadnought?

Quantify that and multiply it by 100.

Why? You have yet to give a decent reason. All you said was that GW don't give vehicles saves which has been shown to be completely wrong.