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pm713 wrote:Why? You have yet to give a decent reason. All you said was that GW don't give vehicles saves which has been shown to be completely wrong.
I said they generally don't. I fully understand that they occassionally give vehicles invulns. That said, they're in the minority, and the game would be better off if they didn't have them.
I mean, that's just the difference between T values and AV values.
AV values mean that you automatically become immune to a lot of things, but if your opponent breaches armor, then he breaches armor. Your AV value IS your save.
Ultimately, I don't feel particularly strongly about this. If riptides become walkers and keep the 5+ invuln, assuming they aren't able to get better than a 5+ invuln, then I suppose that's OK.
But again, I want riptides to pay for it. Riptides are 100 points without the 5+ invuln? Fine. Then they become 130 points with the 5+ invuln.
30 percent more durable = 30 percent more expensive.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/21 19:47:28
Slightly off topic, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone make the suggestion that "walkers" be removed from the game entirely and units like Dreadnoughts become MCs and IKs become GCs. I've heard plenty of people, including myself, suggest a number of MCs (Riptide, DK, etc) become Walkers, but never the other way around. It would be an interesting thought experiment to see that play out.
On the Riptide, I think lowering the armour save to a 3+, then make Nova reactor a 4+ would pretty much solve it's durability problem. It makes it more vulnerable to small arms fire, thus encouraging more players to take Stims, which raises it's cost, thereby making it less spammable. At that point, Stims should probably come standard in it's profile for the points increase, that way taking 4+ Riptides is not so easy AND you don't have to make the notation in the systems list for different points cost for the Riptide.
Making Nova reactor harder to get off makes the Tau player's choice harder and may result in more wounds taken. Doing those 2 simple changes instantly puts the Riptide at a more acceptable power level.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/21 19:50:29
pm713 wrote:Why? You have yet to give a decent reason. All you said was that GW don't give vehicles saves which has been shown to be completely wrong.
I said they generally don't. I fully understand that they occassionally give vehicles invulns. That said, they're in the minority, and the game would be better off if they didn't have them.
I mean, that's just the difference between T values and AV values.
AV values mean that you automatically become immune to a lot of things, but if your opponent breaches armor, then he breaches armor. Your AV value IS your save.
Ultimately, I don't feel particularly strongly about this. If riptides become walkers and keep the 5+ invuln, assuming they aren't able to get better than a 5+ invuln, then I suppose that's OK.
But again, I want riptides to pay for it. Riptides are 100 points without the 5+ invuln? They become 130 points with the 5+ invuln.
It's more than an occasion when it's more than all the vehicles of two armies. What you mean is "you don't like it therefore it's wrong". You haven't said why they shouldn't be here.
You know what else most armies don't have? ATSKNF. Are you going to say we should get rid of that?
If you take have an AV value you also become vulnerable to several things. The same can be said about T. If I manage to wound you've failed your save.
So ultimately you can't defend your point very well.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
What people are considering unreasonable is the union of those suggestions, not any one of them in a vacuum.
You are being incredibly ungenerous, however, by suggesting that I just want to cheat, and that all Tau players just want to be cheesemonsters who cheat. You wouldn't care for it much if I accused you of the same, solely for playing Space Marines, would you? SM certainly have some nasty advantages right now that few others can match. I might recommend you dial back the "you are a cheating cheater who cheats, cheatingly" angle.
That aside, however.
If that's the intended role, then I'd make it look a whole hell of a lot different:
Then replace the nova reactor with the need to deploy Stormsurge-style anchors in order to fire the S9 Ordnance profile, except that they can never be retracted: when you use them, lose an HP and become immobilized.
And yes, BS2. It's a drone at this point, not a battlesuit. Markerlights, use them. AV12 front, because there's a little bit of reinforcement there, but not much.
But that's a totally different unit.
In my opinion, long-range arty isn't really what it "already is". The default weapon has 36" range. The 72" pie-plate-puker was poorly considered - heck, all three secondary weapons are no more than medium-range, there's basically no synergy there to speak of. They didn't think the consequences of that through all the way, and wound up with a monster that everyone hates.
The two new suits, the Stormsurge and Ghostkeel, are a bit better considered. The Stormsurge is the long-range arty type. It being a GC is too bloody much: that should be an open-topped walker, possibly a super-heavy. But it's designed around two different weapons, both of which have across-the-table range. The Ghostkeel, though, seems to know what it's meant to be doing: get close and hit things that need high S to take out - tanks, heavy infantry, etc. It can stand up to anti-tank guns, but does seem to wither pretty quickly once subjected to volume of fire.
So, I'd rather remake the Riptide into the other side of the Ghostkeel's coin: strong against massed fire, but with a bit of a glass jaw against grav, lascannons, plasma, etc. My suggestion might not be glass enough - I'll cheerfully concede that.
Galef wrote: Slightly off topic, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone make the suggestion that "walkers" be removed from the game entirely and units like Dreadnoughts become MCs and IKs become GCs.
I've heard plenty of people, including myself, suggest a number of MCs (Riptide, DK, etc) become Walkers, but never the other way around. It would be an interesting thought experiment to see that play out.
On the Riptide, I think lowering the armour save to a 3+, then make Nova reactor a 4+ would pretty much solve it's durability problem. It makes it more vulnerable to small arms fire, thus encouraging more players to take Stims, which raises it's cost, thereby making it less spammable. At that point, Stims should probably come standard in it's profile for the points increase, that way taking 4+ Riptides is not so easy AND you don't have to make the notation in the systems list for different points cost for the Riptide.
Making Nova reactor harder to get off makes the Tau player's choice harder and may result in more wounds taken.
Doing those 2 simple changes instantly puts the Riptide at a more acceptable power level.
--
I wish to point out that Galef plays with scatter bikes and wraithknights, and he plays in a highly competitive meta.
His opinion of what constitutes OP or balanced may be a bit skewed.
Galef wrote: Slightly off topic, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone make the suggestion that "walkers" be removed from the game entirely and units like Dreadnoughts become MCs and IKs become GCs.
I've heard plenty of people, including myself, suggest a number of MCs (Riptide, DK, etc) become Walkers, but never the other way around. It would be an interesting thought experiment to see that play out.
On the Riptide, I think lowering the armour save to a 3+, then make Nova reactor a 4+ would pretty much solve it's durability problem. It makes it more vulnerable to small arms fire, thus encouraging more players to take Stims, which raises it's cost, thereby making it less spammable. At that point, Stims should probably come standard in it's profile for the points increase, that way taking 4+ Riptides is not so easy AND you don't have to make the notation in the systems list for different points cost for the Riptide.
Making Nova reactor harder to get off makes the Tau player's choice harder and may result in more wounds taken.
Doing those 2 simple changes instantly puts the Riptide at a more acceptable power level.
--
I wish to point out that Galef plays with scatter bikes and wraithknights, and he plays in a highly competitive meta.
His opinion of what constitutes OP or balanced may be a bit skewed.
Just saying.
Pot calling the kettle black there.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Galef wrote: Slightly off topic, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone make the suggestion that "walkers" be removed from the game entirely and units like Dreadnoughts become MCs and IKs become GCs.
I've heard plenty of people, including myself, suggest a number of MCs (Riptide, DK, etc) become Walkers, but never the other way around. It would be an interesting thought experiment to see that play out.
On the Riptide, I think lowering the armour save to a 3+, then make Nova reactor a 4+ would pretty much solve it's durability problem. It makes it more vulnerable to small arms fire, thus encouraging more players to take Stims, which raises it's cost, thereby making it less spammable. At that point, Stims should probably come standard in it's profile for the points increase, that way taking 4+ Riptides is not so easy AND you don't have to make the notation in the systems list for different points cost for the Riptide.
Making Nova reactor harder to get off makes the Tau player's choice harder and may result in more wounds taken.
Doing those 2 simple changes instantly puts the Riptide at a more acceptable power level.
--
I wish to point out that Galef plays with scatter bikes and wraithknights, and he plays in a highly competitive meta.
His opinion of what constitutes OP or balanced may be a bit skewed.
Galef wrote: Slightly off topic, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone make the suggestion that "walkers" be removed from the game entirely and units like Dreadnoughts become MCs and IKs become GCs. I've heard plenty of people, including myself, suggest a number of MCs (Riptide, DK, etc) become Walkers, but never the other way around. It would be an interesting thought experiment to see that play out.
On the Riptide, I think lowering the armour save to a 3+, then make Nova reactor a 4+ would pretty much solve it's durability problem. It makes it more vulnerable to small arms fire, thus encouraging more players to take Stims, which raises it's cost, thereby making it less spammable. At that point, Stims should probably come standard in it's profile for the points increase, that way taking 4+ Riptides is not so easy AND you don't have to make the notation in the systems list for different points cost for the Riptide.
Making Nova reactor harder to get off makes the Tau player's choice harder and may result in more wounds taken. Doing those 2 simple changes instantly puts the Riptide at a more acceptable power level.
--
I wish to point out that Galef plays with scatter bikes and wraithknights, and he plays in a highly competitive meta.
His opinion of what constitutes OP or balanced may be a bit skewed.
Just saying.
"His opinion is not as valid" is how I read that.
Actually, I read it more as my opinion has a bit more validity BECAUSE I play in a highly competitive meta. But then I read who posted it.
Personal attacks on my opinion not withstanding, my general views on ANY proposed balance change is not to over nerf or buff anything. Because at the end of the day you want to make 90% of the players happy and keep the game fun. If you over change a unit in either direction, you cannot achieve this median. There will always be top tier armies/units, the only way to change this is to make all 40K armies the same, and sorry but checkers already exist. The goal should be to make the divide between tiers closer, NOT to knock top tier choices down to bottom tier levels
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/21 20:10:07
That said I would not take my tournament list (5 riptide variants) to a causal game. The few times I've received bad looks, rolling eyes, and bad moods seem to always be Marine players. This wasn't the case before 2013 when everyone came to the table with smiles.
Other codices have dirtier combos and units that way outmatch the Riptide in OP. When are riptides not fun?....going second!
pm713 wrote:Galef's opinion is closer to valid than yours...
My opinion is that the game should be fair/balanced and that every option should be as equally playable as any other option.
And as I was pointing out, this will never EVER happen in a game as complex as 40K. The best we can hope for is to buff bottom tier units up to mid-tier levels and nerf top-tier choices down to mid-tier level. There will still be units that are "better" than others, but the divide between tiers can be lessened. Almost every suggested rules change I have ever read from you is a clear attempt to nerf top tier units to bottom tier levels. I think others will agree
This leaves us to 2 conclusions: Either you really don't want non-Marines to be any sort of competitive, Or you really don't have a good grasp on rule mechanics as they play in the overall game. If either conclusion is true, it becomes obvious whose opinion is more valid.
If you cannot appreciate how 2 simple changes to the Riptide can make it noticeably different and less brutal to play against, that's fine, just don't acknowledge the poster who suggested it. But claiming their opinion is not valid is not the best way to make your opinion any more valid. In fact, it tends to have the opposite effect.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/07/21 21:04:04
That said I would not take my tournament list (5 riptide variants) to a causal game. The few times I've received bad looks, rolling eyes, and bad moods seem to always be Marine players. This wasn't the case before 2013 when everyone came to the table with smiles.
Other codices have dirtier combos and units that way outmatch the Riptide in OP. When are riptides not fun?....going second!
I disagree. What are these dirtier combos? What's dirtier than making lists autolose from 72" away? Yeah, there's invisible death stars. But most of them can't melt my entire list from 72" away. And Riptides don't NEED invisibility to be immortal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/21 21:02:12
jade_angel wrote: You are being incredibly ungenerous, however, by suggesting that I just want to cheat, and that all Tau players just want to be cheesemonsters who cheat.
Correction: I'm not making accusations of cheesemongery because the persons in question play Tau. I'm not even making such accusations because they play riptides. I'm making such accusations because, as is common practice, such people only wish to present the illusion of nerfing their stuff without actually wishing to nerf their stuff and make it actually fair.
Galef, to my mind, is infamous for this. Just look at his recommendations for the wraithknight. Review his posting history on the matter. Read our exchanges on the subject.
It all speaks for itself.
You wouldn't care for it much if I accused you of the same, solely for playing Space Marines, would you?
Yes. Fear my CAD. Fear my missile launchers. Fear my sternguard in rhinos. Fear the almighty Pedro Kantor!
That said I would not take my tournament list (5 riptide variants) to a causal game. The few times I've received bad looks, rolling eyes, and bad moods seem to always be Marine players. This wasn't the case before 2013 when everyone came to the table with smiles.
Other codices have dirtier combos and units that way outmatch the Riptide in OP. When are riptides not fun?....going second!
I disagree. What are these dirtier combos? What's dirtier than making lists autolose from 72" away? Yeah, there's invisible death stars. But most of them can't melt my entire list from 72" away. And Riptides don't NEED invisibility to be immortal.
Wraith Knights, Warp spiders, or Scat-bikes in high numbers.
Any of the high tier deamon lists mostly revolving around grimore of true names, screamer-star, khone-dogs, ect.
Khan scouting an entire army of bikes across the field.
Librarian conclave.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/21 21:24:39
5k Tau Empire 2.5k Dark Eldar 2.5k Craftworld Eldar 1.5k Harlequins
That said I would not take my tournament list (5 riptide variants) to a causal game. The few times I've received bad looks, rolling eyes, and bad moods seem to always be Marine players. This wasn't the case before 2013 when everyone came to the table with smiles.
Other codices have dirtier combos and units that way outmatch the Riptide in OP. When are riptides not fun?....going second!
I disagree. What are these dirtier combos? What's dirtier than making lists autolose from 72" away? Yeah, there's invisible death stars. But most of them can't melt my entire list from 72" away. And Riptides don't NEED invisibility to be immortal.
Wraith Knights, Warp spiders, or Scat-bikes in high numbers.
Any of the high tier deamon lists mostly revolving around grimore of true names, screamer-star, khone-dogs, ect.
Khan scouting an entire army of bikes across the field.
Librarian conclave.
You mean the nerfed conclave? Okay.
I'd actually rather face most of that than Riptides with BA. Especially Khan. Bring it on Motherfether.
That said I would not take my tournament list (5 riptide variants) to a causal game. The few times I've received bad looks, rolling eyes, and bad moods seem to always be Marine players. This wasn't the case before 2013 when everyone came to the table with smiles.
Other codices have dirtier combos and units that way outmatch the Riptide in OP. When are riptides not fun?....going second!
I disagree. What are these dirtier combos? What's dirtier than making lists autolose from 72" away? Yeah, there's invisible death stars. But most of them can't melt my entire list from 72" away. And Riptides don't NEED invisibility to be immortal.
Wraith Knights, Warp spiders, or Scat-bikes in high numbers.
Any of the high tier deamon lists mostly revolving around grimore of true names, screamer-star, khone-dogs, ect.
Khan scouting an entire army of bikes across the field.
Librarian conclave.
You mean the nerfed conclave? Okay.
I'd actually rather face most of that than Riptides with BA. Especially Khan. Bring it on Motherfether.
Pretty sure the Spiders are also nerfed now.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
pm713 wrote: Question: Why a dreadnought? They don't seem like similar things so it's a strange comparison.
The dreadnought is the iconic 40k walker. All walkers should be priced relative to it.
To my mind, the riptide, in the crunch, should just be a more mobile, more shooty, less punchy, less durable version of a dreadnought.
Isn't the riptide about 2x the size of a dreadnought. I would rather it stay around the 200 points level. FYI If you use the vehicle design rules on this site a 12 12 10 5++ 3HP Jet pack walker with the standard riptide loadout (IA + SMS + nova charge) comes out to 165.
That said I would not take my tournament list (5 riptide variants) to a causal game. The few times I've received bad looks, rolling eyes, and bad moods seem to always be Marine players. This wasn't the case before 2013 when everyone came to the table with smiles.
Other codices have dirtier combos and units that way outmatch the Riptide in OP. When are riptides not fun?....going second!
I disagree. What are these dirtier combos? What's dirtier than making lists autolose from 72" away? Yeah, there's invisible death stars. But most of them can't melt my entire list from 72" away. And Riptides don't NEED invisibility to be immortal.
Wraith Knights, Warp spiders, or Scat-bikes in high numbers.
Any of the high tier deamon lists mostly revolving around grimore of true names, screamer-star, khone-dogs, ect.
Khan scouting an entire army of bikes across the field.
Librarian conclave.
You mean the nerfed conclave? Okay.
I'd actually rather face most of that than Riptides with BA. Especially Khan. Bring it on Motherfether.
I guess you can have that preference but every one of those lists places higher then tau with riptide spam in a tournament setting.
Conclave still works in every competitive setting I can think of.
Did anyone play spiders as more then one jump per turn, because to be honest I never saw one eldar player try to pull it and ITC specificly outlawed it way before the FAQ.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/07/21 21:34:17
5k Tau Empire 2.5k Dark Eldar 2.5k Craftworld Eldar 1.5k Harlequins
lusciifi wrote:Isn't the riptide about 2x the size of a dreadnought. I would rather it stay around the 200 points level. FYI If you use the vehicle design rules on this site a 12 12 10 5++ 3HP Jet pack walker with the standard riptide loadout (IA + SMS + nova charge) comes out to 165.
That sounds a lot more fair than what the riptide is currently, although the points costs may need to be adjusted.
Here's a quick point of reference:
If the riptide had that statline and those weapons, would it still be an auto-take? For you? For the competitive scene?
If the answer is "yes," then it still needs to be nerfed. Either by removing the invuln or by increasing the points cost.
If the answer is "no," then it's probably fine.
If you tell me that the riptide has become unplayable even in casual games, then we've nerfed it too much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/21 21:36:35
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