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 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:Isn't the riptide about 2x the size of a dreadnought. I would rather it stay around the 200 points level. FYI If you use the vehicle design rules on this site a 12 12 10 5++ 3HP Jet pack walker with the standard riptide loadout (IA + SMS + nova charge) comes out to 165.

That sounds a lot more fair than what the riptide is currently, although the points costs may need to be adjusted.

Here's a quick point of reference:

If the riptide had that statline and those weapons, would it still be an auto-take? For you? For the competitive scene?

If the answer is "yes," then it still needs to be nerfed. Either by removing the invuln or by increasing the points cost.

If the answer is "no," then it's probably fine.

If you tell me that the riptide has become unplayable even in casual games, then we've nerfed it too much.

The problem is that there a lot of un-usable units in the tau codex as is.
Kroot, Vespids, Hammerheads, Sunshark/Razershark, Stealth suits without the formation, Ethereals.

They would probably still be an auto-pick but that dosn't make them too strong. It means the rest of the codex needs a buff.


You couldn't look at dark eldar and say "everyone is taking venoms, they must be OP".

lusciifi wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:Isn't the riptide about 2x the size of a dreadnought. I would rather it stay around the 200 points level. FYI If you use the vehicle design rules on this site a 12 12 10 5++ 3HP Jet pack walker with the standard riptide loadout (IA + SMS + nova charge) comes out to 165.

That sounds a lot more fair than what the riptide is currently, although the points costs may need to be adjusted.

Here's a quick point of reference:

If the riptide had that statline and those weapons, would it still be an auto-take? For you? For the competitive scene?

If the answer is "yes," then it still needs to be nerfed. Either by removing the invuln or by increasing the points cost.

If the answer is "no," then it's probably fine.

If you tell me that the riptide has become unplayable even in casual games, then we've nerfed it too much.

The problem is that there a lot of un-usable units in the tau codex as is.
Kroot, Vespids, Hammerheads, Sunshark/Razershark, Stealth suits without the formation, Ethereals.

They would probably still be an auto-pick but that dosn't make them too strong. It means the rest of the codex needs a buff.


You couldn't look at dark eldar and say "everyone is taking venoms, they must be OP".

Never mind.

lusciifi wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:Isn't the riptide about 2x the size of a dreadnought. I would rather it stay around the 200 points level. FYI If you use the vehicle design rules on this site a 12 12 10 5++ 3HP Jet pack walker with the standard riptide loadout (IA + SMS + nova charge) comes out to 165.

That sounds a lot more fair than what the riptide is currently, although the points costs may need to be adjusted.

Here's a quick point of reference:

If the riptide had that statline and those weapons, would it still be an auto-take? For you? For the competitive scene?

If the answer is "yes," then it still needs to be nerfed. Either by removing the invuln or by increasing the points cost.

If the answer is "no," then it's probably fine.

If you tell me that the riptide has become unplayable even in casual games, then we've nerfed it too much.

The problem is that there a lot of un-usable units in the tau codex as is.
Kroot, Vespids, Hammerheads, Sunshark/Razershark, Stealth suits without the formation, Ethereals.

They would probably still be an auto-pick but that dosn't make them too strong. It means the rest of the codex needs a buff.


You couldn't look at dark eldar and say "everyone is taking venoms, they must be OP".

Ok. Let's try it this way. If you had the choice between x points of space marine dreadnoughts (of whatever loadout) and x points of riptides, so amended, would you pick the dreadnoughts or the riptides?

If the riptide is an auto-pick over the dreadnought, the riptide needs to be nerfed. If the dreadnought is an auto-pick over the riptide, then the riptide needs to be buffed. If it's purely a matter of personal preference, the riptide, so amended, is fine.

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:Isn't the riptide about 2x the size of a dreadnought. I would rather it stay around the 200 points level. FYI If you use the vehicle design rules on this site a 12 12 10 5++ 3HP Jet pack walker with the standard riptide loadout (IA + SMS + nova charge) comes out to 165.

That sounds a lot more fair than what the riptide is currently, although the points costs may need to be adjusted.

Here's a quick point of reference:

If the riptide had that statline and those weapons, would it still be an auto-take? For you? For the competitive scene?

If the answer is "yes," then it still needs to be nerfed. Either by removing the invuln or by increasing the points cost.

If the answer is "no," then it's probably fine.

If you tell me that the riptide has become unplayable even in casual games, then we've nerfed it too much.

The problem is that there a lot of un-usable units in the tau codex as is.
Kroot, Vespids, Hammerheads, Sunshark/Razershark, Stealth suits without the formation, Ethereals.

They would probably still be an auto-pick but that dosn't make them too strong. It means the rest of the codex needs a buff.


You couldn't look at dark eldar and say "everyone is taking venoms, they must be OP".

Ok. Let's try it this way. If you had the choice between x points of space marine dreadnoughts (of whatever loadout) and x points of riptides, so amended, would you pick the dreadnoughts or the riptides?

If the riptide is an auto-pick over the dreadnought, the riptide needs to be nerfed. If the dreadnought is an auto-pick over the riptide, then the riptide needs to be buffed. If it's purely a matter of personal preference, the riptide, so amended, is fine.

Surely the Dreadnought would have to be nerfed if it's the autotake.

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

lusciifi wrote:Isn't the riptide about 2x the size of a dreadnought. I would rather it stay around the 200 points level. FYI If you use the vehicle design rules on this site a 12 12 10 5++ 3HP Jet pack walker with the standard riptide loadout (IA + SMS + nova charge) comes out to 165.

That sounds a lot more fair than what the riptide is currently, although the points costs may need to be adjusted.

Here's a quick point of reference:

If the riptide had that statline and those weapons, would it still be an auto-take? For you? For the competitive scene?

If the answer is "yes," then it still needs to be nerfed. Either by removing the invuln or by increasing the points cost.

If the answer is "no," then it's probably fine.

If you tell me that the riptide has become unplayable even in casual games, then we've nerfed it too much.

The problem is that there a lot of un-usable units in the tau codex as is.
Kroot, Vespids, Hammerheads, Sunshark/Razershark, Stealth suits without the formation, Ethereals.

They would probably still be an auto-pick but that dosn't make them too strong. It means the rest of the codex needs a buff.


You couldn't look at dark eldar and say "everyone is taking venoms, they must be OP".

Ok. Let's try it this way. If you had the choice between x points of space marine dreadnoughts (of whatever loadout) and x points of riptides, so amended, would you pick the dreadnoughts or the riptides?

If the riptide is an auto-pick over the dreadnought, the riptide needs to be nerfed. If the dreadnought is an auto-pick over the riptide, then the riptide needs to be buffed. If it's purely a matter of personal preference, the riptide, so amended, is fine.

wait there are pyscher dreads right ? f yeah i'd take one of those over a rip any day . It gets tedious to have zero defense against psychic abilities every game with no way to change it

kambien wrote:wait there are pyscher dreads right ? f yeah i'd take one of those over a rip any day . It gets tedious to have zero defense against psychic abilities every game with no way to change it

At that point, you're comparing apples and oranges.

If you want a fair comparison, the riptide must be balanced either against:

Space marine dreadnought with TL lascannon and missile launcher: 125 points

Or

Space marine dreadnought with TL heavy bolter and TL autocannon: 120 points

Or

Space marine dreadnought with TL lascannon and TL autocannon: 130 points

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:wait there are pyscher dreads right ? f yeah i'd take one of those over a rip any day . It gets tedious to have zero defense against psychic abilities every game with no way to change it

At that point, you're comparing apples and oranges.

If you want a fair comparison, the riptide must be balanced either against:

Space marine dreadnought with TL lascannon and missile launcher: 125 points

Or

Space marine dreadnought with TL heavy bolter and TL autocannon: 120 points

Or

Space marine dreadnought with TL lascannon and TL autocannon: 130 points

except your compairing cucumbers to cherries now

kambien wrote:except your compairing cucumbers to cherries now

Except, I'm not. The riptide should basically be a shooty tau version of a space marine dreadnought.

What I listed are the shooty versions of a space marine dreadnought.

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:wait there are pyscher dreads right ? f yeah i'd take one of those over a rip any day . It gets tedious to have zero defense against psychic abilities every game with no way to change it

At that point, you're comparing apples and oranges.

If you want a fair comparison, the riptide must be balanced either against:

Space marine dreadnought with TL lascannon and missile launcher: 125 points

Or

Space marine dreadnought with TL heavy bolter and TL autocannon: 120 points

Or

Space marine dreadnought with TL lascannon and TL autocannon: 130 points

Why does it have to be balanced against a SM Dreadnought? Why not a wingless Hive Tyrant, or a Wraithlord?

Happyjew wrote:Why does it have to be balanced against a SM Dreadnought? Why not a wingless Hive Tyrant, or a Wraithlord?

A wingless hive tyrant and a wraithlord aren't walkers, for one thing.

And for another thing:

It shouldn't really matter. All walkers which fill a given combat role should be balanced against each other. The starting point isn't all that important.

I pick the dreadnought because it's the most iconic 40k walker and is in a relatively new, up to date codex.

 Traditio wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Why does it have to be balanced against a SM Dreadnought? Why not a wingless Hive Tyrant, or a Wraithlord?

A wingless hive tyrant and a wraithlord aren't walkers, for one thing.

Funny. Neither is the Riptide.

Happyjew wrote:Funny. Neither is the Riptide.

Read the rest of the thread.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Why does it have to be balanced against a SM Dreadnought? Why not a wingless Hive Tyrant, or a Wraithlord?

A wingless hive tyrant and a wraithlord aren't walkers, for one thing.

Funny. Neither is the Riptide.

this guy gets it ^^^^^^^^^^
plus he forgets one VERY important thing. Tau weapons are longer ranged and higher str than imperial weapons ( except the plasma rifle , it was reduced STR to make it safer ) , but he didn't add that into to his comparison at all.

kambien wrote:this guy gets it ^^^^^^^^^^

Ex hypothesi, the riptide has been amended to be a walker. Again, read the rest of the thread.

plus he forgets one VERY important thing. Tau weapons are longer ranged and higher str than imperial weapons ( except the plasma rifle , it was reduced STR to make it safer ) , but he didn't add that into to his comparison at all.

What's your point? If Tau weapons are longer ranged and higher strength, then they should cost more.

What's the problem?

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:this guy gets it ^^^^^^^^^^

Ex hypothesi, the riptide has been amended to be a walker. Again, read the rest of the thread.

plus he forgets one VERY important thing. Tau weapons are longer ranged and higher str than imperial weapons ( except the plasma rifle , it was reduced STR to make it safer ) , but he didn't add that into to his comparison at all.

What's your point? If Tau weapons are longer ranged and higher strength, then they should cost more.

What's the problem?

But they don't costs more , its the function of the tau. Its thier schtick.

Their schtick should cost more as it ends up being more effective on the table top.

Martel732 wrote:
Their schtick should cost more as it ends up being more effective on the table top.

ok lets reduce range and str to imperium equivalent and make them baseline bs 4 and up the shot count . sound good ?

kambien wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Their schtick should cost more as it ends up being more effective on the table top.

ok lets reduce range and str to imperium equivalent and make them baseline bs 4 and up the shot count . sound good ?

See: this is exactly what makes me think that Tau players are WAAC TFGs.

Basically, this is what you are saying:

"I want something for nothing. I want to have an advantage over my opponents that's not reflected in the points costs. I don't actually want a fair fight."

Ultimately, I don't care whether the riptide has long range, high strength weapons. I don't care if it's more or less accurate. I don't care if it shoots 1 shot or 6.

Regardless of what it does, I want it to have a POINTS COST that actually MATCHES what it DOES.

This isn't rocket science.

 Traditio wrote:
Ultimately, I don't care whether the riptide has long range, high strength weapons. I don't care if it's more or less accurate. I don't care if it shoots 1 shot or 6.

Regardless of what it does, I want it to have a POINTS COST that actually MATCHES what it DOES.

This isn't rocket science.

But let's consider a hypothetical situation:

Imagine a variant of the Assault Cannon that has 8 Shots instead of 4 and is available to Vanilla Space Marine Dreadnoughts. Yes, you can find a points cost that is appropriate for such a weapon, but should Vanilla Space Marine Dreadnoughts ever be able to fire 8x S6 AP4 Rending Shots from a single weapon?

My point is that the Points Cost of something isn't everything, and that everything about a unit (the unit as a whole as well as its component parts) should be considered and balanced.

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Their schtick should cost more as it ends up being more effective on the table top.

ok lets reduce range and str to imperium equivalent and make them baseline bs 4 and up the shot count . sound good ?

See: this is exactly what makes me think that Tau players are WAAC TFGs.

Basically, this is what you are saying:

"I want something for nothing. I want to have an advantage over my opponents that's not reflected in the points costs. I don't actually want a fair fight."

Ultimately, I don't care whether the riptide has long range, high strength weapons. I don't care if it's more or less accurate. I don't care if it shoots 1 shot or 6.

Regardless of what it does, I want it to have a POINTS COST that actually MATCHES what it DOES.

This isn't rocket science.

No , that is asymmetrical armies, Tau shoot things. They can't assultt worth a damn , thier movement is slightly above par thanks to assault phase JSJ and thier are totally skipped on the psychic phase. If they don't have the BS advantage ( they don't they are average , marines have a better BS ) , more shots , more range , higher str , then how do you make them more shooty then the rest of the armies ?

Martel732 wrote:

 thejughead wrote:
I don't think anyone wants to play Traditio 40k.

That said I would not take my tournament list (5 riptide variants) to a causal game. The few times I've received bad looks, rolling eyes, and bad moods seem to always be Marine players. This wasn't the case before 2013 when everyone came to the table with smiles.

Other codices have dirtier combos and units that way outmatch the Riptide in OP. When are riptides not fun?....going second!

I disagree. What are these dirtier combos? What's dirtier than making lists autolose from 72" away? Yeah, there's invisible death stars. But most of them can't melt my entire list from 72" away. And Riptides don't NEED invisibility to be immortal.

OMG! All the tears T__T. How about unkillable screamer star, SW iron priests + BlackKnights + conclave, Skatharch WK, Imperial Knights, ...

It's your opinion on whether the riptide is op. Don't go to tournaments play narrative and discuss the type of game with your opponent.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

kambien wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:this guy gets it ^^^^^^^^^^

Ex hypothesi, the riptide has been amended to be a walker. Again, read the rest of the thread.

plus he forgets one VERY important thing. Tau weapons are longer ranged and higher str than imperial weapons ( except the plasma rifle , it was reduced STR to make it safer ) , but he didn't add that into to his comparison at all.

What's your point? If Tau weapons are longer ranged and higher strength, then they should cost more.

What's the problem?

But they don't costs more , its the function of the tau. Its thier schtick.

We have Wraith Knights under 300 points. Fix that then I'll accept a points hike on a riptide.

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Their schtick should cost more as it ends up being more effective on the table top.

ok lets reduce range and str to imperium equivalent and make them baseline bs 4 and up the shot count . sound good ?

See: this is exactly what makes me think that Tau players are WAAC TFGs.

Basically, this is what you are saying:

"I want something for nothing. I want to have an advantage over my opponents that's not reflected in the points costs. I don't actually want a fair fight."

Ultimately, I don't care whether the riptide has long range, high strength weapons. I don't care if it's more or less accurate. I don't care if it shoots 1 shot or 6.

Regardless of what it does, I want it to have a POINTS COST that actually MATCHES what it DOES.

This isn't rocket science.

Most armies have some advantage over their opponent. SM in particular.

"Imperial Knights, ... "

Are a total joke compared to Riptides. Try again.

"It's your opinion on whether the riptide is op"

It is objectively OP. It's not my problem that you just can't admit it.

" unkillable screamer star, SW iron priests + BlackKnights + conclave, Skatharch WK,"

Still can't melt my whole list from 72" away while laughing off every imperial weapon that can reach them. You really need to army swap sometime to see what it's like.

"Fix that then I'll accept a points hike on a riptide."

The Riptide is harder to kill and is not even a LoW! WK should be 400 base and Riptide, as is, should be around 300 with stimpack.

 Traditio wrote:
All walkers which fill a given combat role should be balanced against each other. .

Only if each army that has a walker that fills that combat role is intended to be equally effective at it.

 insaniak wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
All walkers which fill a given combat role should be balanced against each other. .

Only if each army that has a walker that fills that combat role is intended to be equally effective at it.

I'm afraid that you may have misunderstood me.

Let us assume three walkers, A, B and C.

A, B and C have the same intended combat roles. However, A is more effective than B is more effective than C.

I'm asserting that A should cost more than B should cost more than C.

The dreadnought with two heavy bolters should cost less than the dreadnought with two assault cannons (assuming such things even existed).

 Traditio wrote:

I'm asserting that A should cost more than B should cost more than C.
).

Yes, and I'm saying that it's not that simple.

The individual power of any given unit is not the sole determining factor for how effective it is on the tabletop... The rest of the army that the unit is intended to be a part of has an impact as well.

 insaniak wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

I'm asserting that A should cost more than B should cost more than C.
).

Yes, and I'm saying that it's not that simple.

The individual power of any given unit is not the sole determining factor for how effective it is on the tabletop... The rest of the army that the unit is intended to be a part of has an impact as well.

IoW:

"No, no, look, Traditio, I know that the Riptide is much, much better than a dreadnought. But you just aren't getting this. It says 'Tau' on the front cover of the codex. How are you not getting this?"

Is that what you're saying?

What's sad is that I can only imagine that this is what underlies the mentality of Tau players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kambien wrote:No , that is asymmetrical armies, Tau shoot things. They can't assultt worth a damn , thier movement is slightly above par thanks to assault phase JSJ and thier are totally skipped on the psychic phase. If they don't have the BS advantage ( they don't they are average , marines have a better BS ) , more shots , more range , higher str , then how do you make them more shooty then the rest of the armies ?

All of this is ultimately irrelevant to the point that I'm making.

So what if a riptide isn't a psyker.?Neither is one of my tactical marines.

What your "shtick" is is irrelevant. The fact remains that we are talking about a unit with a given set of stats, table-top capabilities, etc. It is comparable to a number of other, similar models. It should be priced comparably to those models.

Granted, the riptide shouldn't pay as much as a dreadnought for its close combat capabilities, but it should certainly pay more than a dreadnought for its shooting and mobility. All of that has to be taken into account.

And ultimately, we have to ask the question: all things considered, is a riptide better than, as good as, or inferior to a shooty dreadnought in its intended combat role? If better than, it should cost more. If worse than, it should cost less. If as good as, it should cost as much as.

It's that simple.

 Traditio wrote:

kambien wrote:No , that is asymmetrical armies, Tau shoot things. They can't assultt worth a damn , thier movement is slightly above par thanks to assault phase JSJ and thier are totally skipped on the psychic phase. If they don't have the BS advantage ( they don't they are average , marines have a better BS ) , more shots , more range , higher str , then how do you make them more shooty then the rest of the armies ?

All of this is ultimately irrelevant to the point that I'm making./

No one knows what the point your making , yourself seems to be included

 Traditio wrote:
So what if a riptide isn't a psyker.?Neither is one of my tactical marines.

were you not talking about swapping the riptide out with a dread ? there are dread pyschers , i accept the deal !

 Traditio wrote:
What your "shtick" is is irrelevant. The fact remains that we are talking about a unit with a given set of stats, table-top capabilities, etc. It is comparable to a number of other, similar models. It should be priced comparably to those models.

No its VERY relevent because thats how the ENTIRE codex is built around . These things must be considered. The riptide was never comparable to the dread , they are not the same things in the same army.

 Traditio wrote:
Granted, the riptide shouldn't pay as much as a dreadnought for its close combat capabilities, but it should certainly pay more than a dreadnought for its shooting and mobility. All of that has to be taken into account.

Your like on the cusp of getting it , its so close but yet so far . So if the points in close combat don't apply to the tau , because thats not what its going to do , it gets stats in other places . Where do you suppose they should go ? Right , range , ranged weapons str , rate of fire , balaistic skill . Anything else is points not being able to be used.

 Traditio wrote:
And ultimately, we have to ask the question: all things considered, is a riptide better than, as good as, or inferior to a shooty dreadnought in its intended combat role? If better than, it should cost more. If worse than, it should cost less. If as good as, it should cost as much as.

They have never been comprable , they never will. Space marines are not a shooty codex. Just acuse you can slap some weapons on a dread doesn't make it comparable

How about this .
Space marine tacticals need to cost a extra 5 points a model because they have the option to take special weapons and spread these weapons out so they cannont all be taken out at once but firewarriors do not even get the option of taking any special weapons. Nerf marine tacticals.

This dude has locked two other threads in the last two days with these arguments, I feel another one is incoming.

- Removed by insaniak. Off topic -