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Traditio, you just had a poll on this. Result was that more people than not thought the riptide was balanced, or at least fair. And dreadnoughts are more comparable to broadsides than riptides as dreadnought is about in between both sizes, but a shooty dread fills a role closer to a broadside than a riptide. Marines don't have anything to compare to a riptide really.

 Traditio wrote:

IoW:

"No, no, look, Traditio, I know that the Riptide is much, much better than a dreadnought. But you just aren't getting this. It says 'Tau' on the front cover of the codex. How are you not getting this?"

Is that what you're saying?

No.

- Removed by insaniak. Off topic -

 Wolfblade wrote:
Traditio, you just had a poll on this. Result was that more people than not tho7ght the riptide was balanced, or at least fair. And dreadnought are more compare to broadsides than riptides. A dreadnought is about in between both sizes, but a shooty dread fills a role closer to a broadside than a riptide. Marines don't have anything compare to a riptide really.

This^^^. The closest thing "Space Marines" have to a Riptide is a Grey Knight Dread Knight....which is an MC, btw.

The problem with comparing different units in other codices to each other is that they rarely EVER fill the exact same battlefield role. Take the above. Riptides and DKs are quite similar on paper. Same T, armour save, invul, etc. Both are about the same points all decked out (around 225). Yes the Riptide is tougher, having +1W and FNP, but the DK is more effective in CC than the Riptide is at shooting. Add to that the fact that a DK can be effective at shooting AND CC. The riptide never wants to be in CC.

So the point is that while those 2 units seem similar, they fill COMPLETELY different battle field roles. It makes perfect sense that the Riptide is more effective at shooting and durability, since it cannot compete with the DK for overall effectiveness in multiple phases and the DK cannot compare to the Riptide at shooting. The Riptide is specialized, the DK is a generalist.
This is why A cannot be compared to B to be compared to C. There are too many factors
The only time you can do this kind of comparing is between Space Marines and Dreadnought from different books, since they are essentially the same units. This is why GW FAQ'd the BA, SW & GK Dreads to have 4 atks, ust like the SM & DA ones.

-------------------
Side note, It would actually make sense to make a DK into a Walker since its tech is similar to a Dreadnaught. However the Riptide's tech is the same as the rest of the Tau suits, NONE of which are walkers. If you make the Riptide into a Walker, you'd need to do the same for StormSurges, Broadsides, GhostKeels, Crisis suits, etc. I don't know about you, but AV8, 2 HP Crisis suit sound like crap, even AV10 for the suits would make them worthless.

--

"The riptide never wants to be in CC."

This is not true. I see Riptides charge crippled squads all the time.

The Riptide is far more effective on the battlefield than the DK. The DK quickly ends up within range of all kinds hurt, and doesn't last long usually. It's also only got access to one save.

I absolutely can compared units. In fact, GW made it trivial by using a D6 system. There aren't enough factors in 40K. Fixed that for you.

Martel732 wrote:
"The riptide never wants to be in CC."

This is not true. I see Riptides charge crippled squads all the time.

The Riptide is far more effective on the battlefield than the DK. The DK quickly ends up within range of all kinds hurt, and doesn't last long usually. It's also only got access to one save.

I absolutely can compared units. In fact, GW made it trivial by using a D6 system. There aren't enough factors in 40K. Fixed that for you.

While I agree that the Riptide is better overall than a DK, my point was to illustrate using similarly costed, statlined units, that comparing points cost between units only works when they are identical in their battle field role, which the DK & Riptide are not. Tau are THE shooting army. They have no CC "desire". While it may be beneficial to get a Riptide into CC with a "crippled" squad, they just as well would prefer to wipe them out from range. GW simply over compensated with all the special rules

The Riptide is too durable for it's purpose is the main problem, It SHOULD be one of the most effective shooters in the game. That's what the Tau engineers created it for.
The Riptide should be this:
220pts base, comes standard w/ Stims (hence the 40pt price hike) and only have a 3+ save (just like EVERY other Jet-pack Tau suit) and Nova Charge should only succeed on a 4+.
Now massed fire has a chance against it and the Tau player might not even risk using the Nova Charge (which is supposed to be a "last resort" ability anyway)

--

" It SHOULD be one of the most effective shooter in the game."

That's fine. Pay for it. 300 pts base for the current durability. 220 still seems low even with a 3+/5++. Maybe not though.

For being THE shooting army, Eldar sure does a good imitation.

"GW simply over compensated with all the special rules"

It's their MC status that makes it work.

Martel732 wrote:

For being THE shooting army, Eldar sure does a good imitation.

Yes, and that is another issue that has been discussed at length

I think the biggest issue with all these "OP" "undercosted" units is that GW is trying to make players able to play more models in smaller games. If WKs and Riptides cost too much, people would buy as many. If they toned down those units so that they are appropriate to their current points cost, it would be a better solution for them AND the players than just "Make them pay for it"

Martel732 wrote:

It's their MC status that makes it work.

I'd agree with this. I still don't think it makes sense for them to be Walkers unless you make ALL suits Walkers, but I don't see the need to make them MCs. Broadsides are as big as Dreadnoughts, yet they aren't MCs. I wonder if it would be too weird to have the Riptide just be Jet-pack Infantry? Drop the MC status altogether

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"The riptide never wants to be in CC."

This is not true. I see Riptides charge crippled squads all the time.

The Riptide is far more effective on the battlefield than the DK. The DK quickly ends up within range of all kinds hurt, and doesn't last long usually. It's also only got access to one save.

I absolutely can compared units. In fact, GW made it trivial by using a D6 system. There aren't enough factors in 40K. Fixed that for you.

While I agree that the Riptide is better overall than a DK, my point was to illustrate using similarly costs, statlined units, that comparing points cost between units only works when they are identical in their battle field role, which the DK & Riptide are not. Tau are THE shooting army. They have no CC "desire". While it may be beneficial to get a Riptide into CC with a "crippled" squad, they just as well would prefer to wipe them out from range.

The Riptide is too durable for it's purpose is the main problem, It SHOULD be one of the most effective shooter in the game. That's what the Tau engineers created it for.
The Riptide should be this:
220pts base, comes standard w/ Stims (hence the 40pt price hike) and only have a 3+ save (just like EVERY other Jet-pack Tau suit) and Nova Charge should only succeed on a 4+.

--

That sounds pretty fair, losing a wound half the time on a nova, and a point of armor, and a nerf to stimms (even if it is only 5 points more).

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

For being THE shooting army, Eldar sure does a good imitation.

Yes, and that is another issue that has been discussed at length

I think the biggest issue with all these "OP" "undercosted" units is that GW is trying to make players able to play more models in smaller games. If WKs and Riptides cost too much, people would buy as many. If they toned down those units so that they are appropriate to their current points cost, it would be a better solution for them AND the players than just "Make them pay for it"

I'm fine with whatever. I'd just prefer to see fewer stompy robots.

Martel732 wrote:

I'm fine with whatever. I'd just prefer to see fewer stompy robots.

Agreed. The 40K arms race has gotten out of hand. If IK's, Riptides and similar units weren't a thing, I'd feel comfortable without a WK in my tournament lists

The sad part is that it actually takes a while to kill 3++ riptide with heavy wraithcannons.

 Galef wrote:
<snippety>

Martel732 wrote:

It's their MC status that makes it work.

I'd agree with this. I still don't think it makes sense for them to be Walkers unless you make ALL suits Walkers, but I don't see the need to make them MCs. Broadsides are as big as Dreadnoughts, yet they aren't MCs. I wonder if it would be too weird to have the Riptide just be Jet-pack Infantry? Drop the MC status altogether

That's actually precisely what my initial proposal does - make the Riptide into a big-ass Jet Pack Infantry unit. (Incidentally, that's also what's with Nova Hazard: As an MC, ICs can't join it while as infantry they'd be able to.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The sad part is that it actually takes a while to kill 3++ riptide with heavy wraithcannons.

True, but the D-sword deals with them pretty handily. Though, of course, that whole "sit back 48+ inches away and kill stuff" is a problem, then.

Stripping them of MC status would fix a LOT of complaints.

Martel732 wrote:
Stripping them of MC status would fix a LOT of complaints.

MC only gives like 3 rules that matter (MTC, Smash, Relentless). Those aren't really breaking the bank here

lusciifi wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Pretty sure the Spiders are also nerfed now.

Did anyone play spiders as more then one jump per turn, because to be honest I never saw one eldar player try to pull it and ITC specificly outlawed it way before the FAQ.

I'll be honest. I did a couple times in paid events (my lgs doesn't use ITC). Then I just started keeping them near los-blocking terrain, so I'd only need to do one jump regardless. It was just too bonkers doing it more than once. I didn't even think about it until after one game my opponent was like "You know there's no restriction on how many times the spiders can jump, right? It doesn't say once per turn." It blew my mind that that wasn't a restriction, and I decided I would try doing it, but only when I was playing for money, but even then it made me feel scummy.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Stripping them of MC status would fix a LOT of complaints.

MC only gives like 3 rules that matter (MTC, Smash, Relentless). Those aren't really breaking the bank here

Smash is the one that really bugs people, and I think to a lesser extent Fear and Hammer of Wrath: the problem is that those make a unit that's supposed to stink on ice in CC, halfway competent. It certainly means that bully units like Assault Marines have no business tangling with one. (Obviously they don't care about Fear, but some others like Orks and so forth do...) MTC and Relentless would wind up staying anyway, at least as I revised it. If you wanna make it into a giant Broadside instead of a giant Crisis Suit, then yeah, it'd probably lose those too.

And I agree about Smash. A few games ago I wound up charging my Riptide at a wounded Exocrine. I should have had a heck of a time doing any damage to it, but nope, got lucky, dealt three wounds and killed it. Without Smash, it would only have taken one, statistically, since I wouldn't be ignoring the 3+ armor save, and I probably would have been swept.

This thread is going in an odd direction honestly. Started as "nerf the riptide into a faster broadside", and turned into a shouting match about who is better at what. Throwing arbitrary point onto units might take a winning unit and turn it into mutilators. I'd happily take lower range on its guns, lose MC, but nerfing the guns on top of that, i dunno. Tau could turn into the next tyranids, aka 'Missilesides the army". No-one wants to be shoe-horned into taking a single unit in order to play at competitive levels.

StarHunter25 wrote:
This thread is going in an odd direction honestly. Started as "nerf the riptide into a faster broadside", and turned into a shouting match about who is better at what. Throwing arbitrary point onto units might take a winning unit and turn it into mutilators. I'd happily take lower range on its guns, lose MC, but nerfing the guns on top of that, i dunno. Tau could turn into the next tyranids, aka 'Missilesides the army". No-one wants to be shoe-horned into taking a single unit in order to play at competitive levels.

Faster Broadside? Huh. I'm coming to realize that most people do think of it as a giant Broadside, while I've always thought of it as a giant Crisis Suit, which is more or less where my original changes were aimed. (But more durable and with less firepower relative to the same points spent on XV8s)

jade_angel wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
This thread is going in an odd direction honestly. Started as "nerf the riptide into a faster broadside", and turned into a shouting match about who is better at what. Throwing arbitrary point onto units might take a winning unit and turn it into mutilators. I'd happily take lower range on its guns, lose MC, but nerfing the guns on top of that, i dunno. Tau could turn into the next tyranids, aka 'Missilesides the army". No-one wants to be shoe-horned into taking a single unit in order to play at competitive levels.

Faster Broadside? Huh. I'm coming to realize that most people do think of it as a giant Broadside, while I've always thought of it as a giant Crisis Suit, which is more or less where my original changes were aimed. (But more durable and with less firepower relative to the same points spent on XV8s)

Well it definitely has less firepower up close than equivalent crisis suits. 52 points for Crisis and 2 rapid fire plasma/fusion guns/CIBs. so you can get 3-4 depending on your riptide upgrades, and they are danger close, but doing far more damage to all the things in question of being OP against. You can even grab them with 2 missile pods and stay 36" away and you target the same amount of av14 (none riptide doesn't really target it either except for hail-mary), and slightly less terminators, but still just as functionally resilient against them.

Smash is one of the most bs rules in the for the have-not assault armies.

 pumaman1 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
This thread is going in an odd direction honestly. Started as "nerf the riptide into a faster broadside", and turned into a shouting match about who is better at what. Throwing arbitrary point onto units might take a winning unit and turn it into mutilators. I'd happily take lower range on its guns, lose MC, but nerfing the guns on top of that, i dunno. Tau could turn into the next tyranids, aka 'Missilesides the army". No-one wants to be shoe-horned into taking a single unit in order to play at competitive levels.

Faster Broadside? Huh. I'm coming to realize that most people do think of it as a giant Broadside, while I've always thought of it as a giant Crisis Suit, which is more or less where my original changes were aimed. (But more durable and with less firepower relative to the same points spent on XV8s)

Well it definitely has less firepower up close than equivalent crisis suits. 52 points for Crisis and 2 rapid fire plasma/fusion guns/CIBs. so you can get 3-4 depending on your riptide upgrades, and they are danger close, but doing far more damage to all the things in question of being OP against. You can even grab them with 2 missile pods and stay 36" away and you target the same amount of av14 (none riptide doesn't really target it either except for hail-mary), and slightly less terminators, but still just as functionally resilient against them.

The Riptide could do a lot better against Terminators than Deathrain XV8s, at least with nova charge: either an AP2 large blast or (as amended) 15 Rending shots, and Rending actually is useful when you get that much of it. Obviously, Burning Eye and Helios configurations outclass it, but they're purpose-built TEQ annihilators, and they're much less resilient.

That's kinda exactly what I have in mind, BTW: the things that can sit back and rain missiles on you are actually scared of krak missiles and lascannons and a little worried about autocannons (missile XV8s). The Riptide can go up close and live. It doesn't hit as hard as the Crisis suits with short-range guns, but that's the trade. They get close and things die horribly, but they fold to serious retaliation; the Riptide lives for a while but doesn't crank out as much damage per turn - but still enough that you can't ignore it. It's the fire magnet to protect the heavy firepower.

Now, Riptide versus Ghostkeel in that role gets a little hinkier. They have mostly equal mobility, modulo the nova-charge. The Ghostkeel shrugs off AP2 single shots, but starts getting a bit more worried about volume of fire up close; the Riptide, as amended, shrugs off bolters and lasguns (though has to get close enough to be hit by them) but things with AP2 are actually scary since it can't just go "oh, I have a 3++ and only like, 2 shots are in range anyway".

Yeah jade, XV-8's are sort of jack-of-all-trade units. Their role is what you build them to be, that's kind of the TE's thing. Your riptide is more of a scrum/horde killer, with a slight lean toward killing hordes and light vehicles. Two roles already ABUNDANTLY filled by the rest of the army. If you honestly want it to be a big, durable xv-8, it needs that Swiss Armyknife feel. Example...

XV104 Riptide - 170ppm
WS2 BS3 S5 T6 A3 W5 I2 Ld 9 Sv 2+/5++, Jet Pack Infantry
Wargear: Riptide Shield Generator, Nova Reactor, Multi-Tracker, Blacksun Filter
Special Rules: Move Through Cover, Extremely Bulky, Nova Hazard
Nova Hazard: A squad of XV104 Riptides may never be joined by Independent Characters under any circumstances whatsoever. (Save a specific rule that overrides this. EDIT to reflect new FAQ/Errata for O'Vesa).
Options: May add up to two additional Riptide Shas'Vres - 180pts each
May take up to two shielded missile drones (stats as per codex) per Riptide: 25ppm
Bonding Knife Ritual 1ppm
Must select one weapon from the [Siege Weaponry] list,
-Heavy Burst Cannon: R30 S6 AP5, Heavy 10 --OR-- R30 S6 AP4, Heavy 15, Rending, Nova-Charge 10 ppm
-Riptide Ion Blaster: R24 S7 AP4 Heavy 3 Blast > R24 S8 AP3 Heavy 1 Large Blast, Gets Hot! > R18 S10 AP2 Heavy 1, Ordinance, Large Blast, Nova Charge 25ppm
-Heavy Rail Repeater: R36 S8 AP1 Heavy 4 > R72 S8 AP1 Heavy 2, Armorbane, Nova Reactor 25 ppm
-(heavy template name): R[template] S6 AP4 Assault 3 > R[Template] S6 AP3 , 6" Torrent, Assault 3, Nova Charge 15ppm
Must select a secondary weapon
- Twin-linked Burst Cannon free
- Twin-linked Plasm Rifle 10mmp
- Twin-linked Fusion Blaster 10ppm
- Twin-linked Flamer free
- Twin-linked Cyclic Ion Blaster 10ppm
- Shield Overcharge Module 30ppm (adds old 3++ nova charge option)

May take up to two seeker missiles 8ppm

points were arbitrarily assigned mostly. That feels more like a "big scary xv8 that wants to be close"

Ok, I like that idea a fair bit. More options are a good thing in my opinion.

A few tweaks:

Heavy Rail Repeater: change the profile to:
R30 S8 AP1 Heavy 4
R60 S8 AP1 Ordnance 2, Armorbane, Nova-charge

And for the template weapon - Heavy Plasma Incinerator, maybe - change the profile to:
R-Template S6 AP4 Heavy 2
R-Template S6 AP3, 6" Torrent, Heavy 2, Pinning, Nova-charge

I like the rail weapon a lot, but I'd still like a reason for the Hammerhead to be around, so, a little clipping of range. Also, Ordnance on the nova profile - more reliable against tanks but also, you sacrifice the ability to fire your secondary weapon. Tradeoffs, y'know. For the template, three templates is pretty dang mean, so I figure, only two - but give the nova-charged version something extra. In this case, I picked Pinning, but that was a little arbitrary. Maybe Strikedown or Concussive, instead.

What I'd really like on the Heavy Rail Repeater is to make it Rapid-Fire 2 - that is, 2 shots at 30", 4 at 15". That's kind of a thing already - Hurricane Bolters - but we don't call it that, so...

Not sure about price on the Shield Overcharge Module. I like the idea - you can have the option but you have to pay for it - but I'm not sure how the community feels, there. I think the fact that the long-range gun needs nova-charge and is two shots instead of a blast is a good balancing factor, but let's see what folks think. (EDIT: Duh moment! You can have 3++ XOR 60" range - there's no way to have both in the same turn!)

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Stripping them of MC status would fix a LOT of complaints.

MC only gives like 3 rules that matter (MTC, Smash, Relentless). Those aren't really breaking the bank here

Well that and the fact that it has both armour and invuln saves
It can be down to its last wound and operates normally -unlike vehicles which can be useless after just taking one damage point.

The fact that the Riptide and The Wraith Knight are so OP is not just that GW want to sell big models - otherwise why make the Ork Equivalent so bad?

I agree Mr Morden. It makes NO sense.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Stripping them of MC status would fix a LOT of complaints.

MC only gives like 3 rules that matter (MTC, Smash, Relentless). Those aren't really breaking the bank here

Well that and the fact that it has both armour and invuln saves
It can be down to its last wound and operates normally -unlike vehicles which can be useless after just taking one damage point.

The fact that the Riptide and The Wraith Knight are so OP is not just that GW want to sell big models - otherwise why make the Ork Equivalent so bad?

that's unrelated to it being a MC though.

Absolutely no mention of the Dreadnought's far superior CC ability and ability to deep strike with absolute safety: Sounds like a Traditio-thread.

 raverrn wrote:
Absolutely no mention of the Dreadnought's far superior CC ability and ability to deep strike with absolute safety: Sounds like a Traditio-thread.

Probably because the Dreadnought isn't that far superior in CC, and because Dreadnoughts can't Deep Strike. There's plenty of stuff to slam him with without making bad arguments.

Dreads have drop pods, and they do have more attacks at a better I and WS.