Balancing Riptides

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**raverrn**

Traditio wrote:
JA:
1. Make feel no pain part of the base model's special rules set.

Why not make it a GC?

2. Make the ion accelerator a free upgrade.

Seeing as it costs 5 as-is and the HBC is the better gun option, this seems pointless.

3. Remove the riptide's ability to upgrade its invuln (not even the wraithknight can do that).

Both Imperial Knights and the FW big Daemon Engines an do this. Seeing as they're giant robots like the Riptide, the Riptide should be able to.

3. Increase the cost of a riptide to no less than 325 points.

Where did you get this point value?

4. Move the riptide to the LoW FOC slot.

What does this accomplish? If the Riptide is balanced with your changes, then how many you take should make no difference.

5. Abolish formations.

This is a different bitching thread.

The riptide has more wounds than a landraider.

The Land Raider has more Hull Points than the Riptide.

It is way more durable than a landraider.

Situational. The Land Raider is way more durable than the Riptide.

It has better firepower than a landraider.

Situational.

It should cost more than a landraider.

It cannot move as fast as the LR, cannot Tank Shock, and cannot carry troops and allow them to assault. It should cost less than a Land Raider. As we all know the LR is massively overpriced, it should cost significantly less.

If you answer me that a riptide now costs as much as an IK and that this is unfair, then I'll ask you:

"Fine. Then I'll let you proxy your riptide as an IK. We got a deal?"

If you tell me "no," then you admit that my solution is perfectly fair.

This doesn't follow.

I give your post a 9/10 for fury and a 3/10 for logic.

**Martel732**

"And are immune to S7 spam."

So are riptides, unfortunately.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wolfblade wrote:
Land raiders also suffer from bring vehicles. And are immune to S7 spam. And LRs are generally agreed upon as sucking massively. Instead, the LR could be dropped ~50pt or so and still be overcosted as it's NOT a firepower unit. It's primarily a transport from point to point b, with some added guns just in case, so they don't even fill the same role and shouldn't be balanced against each other. Otherwise we have to also compare it to an assault marine squad, kroot squad, eldar vypers, DE warriors, and 'nid gaunts (both types) to make sure it's balanced!

And if we move the riptide to the LoW slot, and make it 325pt, people will find a way to save roughly 100pts and upgrade to a stormsurge. Between the stimms and IA, you've increased the cost by 50 points on the stimms (85pt total), and 45 on the IA (45pt total), which is a bit crazy to say the least. FnP is good, especially with a 3++, bujt with a 5++ only it's not THAT good. A 245pt marine unit can still wipe it out in one turn (drop grav devs with a combi grav)

Means marines must be OP right?

Also, what if I tell you "no" because of the allies chart? Or because I WANT to use the riptide, and not an IK? Or because I don't agree with your poor idea of balance? Or because thje Gallant isn't what I wanted (I1 melee only knight minus a heavy stubber)? I still don't agree .

(you also forgot the 3rd option of buffing vehicles so they're not trash, instead of nerfing MCs.)

And guardsmen and Tac marines are pretty much never worth their points. It's why IG is so weak. Overcosted tanks, crap infantry, terrible formations.

There is no buff we could apply to vehicles that would make them remotely as good as a Riptide. That's the problem.

Also, I would pay no more than 160 for a land raider as currently implemented. Maybe not even then. That's how terrible they are.

**Traditio**

Galef wrote:
Yes, a Riptide should definitely cost more than a Land Raider, but since a Land Raider is criminally overcosted

I hear this all the time. I don't buy it. A landraider is criminally undercosted compared to what?

4- because you cannot nerf something hard AND give it over a 100pt increase. If you take away the 3++, make the Riptide have only a 3+ armour

I'm assuming a 2+ armor save. Again, let me be clear: the changes I proposed in that posting are the only changes I am recommending for the riptide from what is currently in the Tau codex.

5- Making a Riptide a LoW is a bad idea because it not only would complete with the StormSurge

I'm well aware of this. I think that this is perfectly fine.

but is creates a precedent for other units to be forced into LoW slots.

Imho, the LoW is essentially "heavy heavy support." Does a riptide in its current incarnation, plus the rules I am suggesting,essentially fit that role?

Yes. I wish to remind you that Marneus Calgar is currently in the LoW FOC slot. If big papa smurf is a LoW, then the riptide should be too.

Dread Knights

In its current incarnation? I would be fine with this. Not only does the DK need a points increase (for the same reasons as the riptide), but it should also probably have LoW status.

LoW are supposed to be rare, something that the Tau fluff does not suggest about the Riptide.

LoW is a table-top rules classification. It should be applied when it makes sense, in terms of table top balance, to apply it. It essentially translates to: "One per CAD." Should riptides be "one per CAD"? You betcha.

While many would be on board with this, it pretty much gives the middle finger to armies like Harlequins & Skitarii

Harlequins could easily be integrated into the Eldar and Dark Eldar main armies. Skitarii could easily be integrated into the Ad Mech book.

Quick side note, Traditio: With your suggestion that the Riptide become a Walker

My current proposal assumes that the riptide remains an MC.

are you suggesting that it be AV10 without an Amour save?

No other walker gets an armor save. Assuming the riptide were a walker, why should it be some snowflake exception?

**pumaman1**

Martel732 wrote:
"And are immune to S7 spam."

So are riptides, unfortunately.

riptides aren't immune from s3 spam, as it wounds on 6's, unlikely is not the same as immune.

How about this, the riptide as a MC with multi-tracker can fire 3 weapons a turn, barring ordinance. It can choose give up its riptide shield gen and bring weapons on both arms, for a cost (40 pts whatever)? 2 hbc, 2 IA, 1 of each, but then it has no invul at all.
Could even make a way to say it gives up the nova profile, but that over-hits the HBC. unless that profile changes to a over-charge for the gets hot.

**Traditio**

raverrn wrote:Why not make it a GC?

The size of the model doesn't support it. In terms of balance, I'd personally be happy just to call it a GC and make it a 400+ point model (assuming my changes 1-3).

However, the model doesn't look like a GC, especially when you put it next to a storm surge or a wraithknight.

Both Imperial Knights and the FW big Daemon Engines an do this. Seeing as they're giant robots like the Riptide, the Riptide should be able to.

IKs have 4+ invulns, no? Which IK are you thinking of which can get a 3+ invuln?

Where did you get this point value?

That's how much a cheap IK costs.

What does this accomplish? If the Riptide is balanced with your changes, then how many you take should make no difference.

Non sequitur. It's my understanding that LoWs are considered well balanced in HH, but there is still a points restriction to how many you can take. And this is considered well balanced in terms of the overall game.

The Land Raider has more Hull Points than the Riptide.

You understand that what you just said is completely asinine, right? This is a stupid quibble that completely misses the point of what I intended. A landraider has 4 hull points. A riptide has 5 wounds. In terms of overall durability, the riptide is way more durable.

Situational. The Land Raider is way more durable than the Riptide.

Lolno.

**Martel732**

pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"And are immune to S7 spam."

So are riptides, unfortunately.

riptides aren't immune from s3 spam, as it wounds on 6's, unlikely is not the same as immune.

How about this, the riptide as a MC with multi-tracker can fire 3 weapons a turn, barring ordinance. It can choose give up its riptide shield gen and bring weapons on both arms, for a cost (40 pts whatever)? 2 hbc, 2 IA, 1 of each, but then it has no invul at all.
Could even make a way to say it gives up the nova profile, but that over-hits the HBC. unless that profile changes to a over-charge for the gets hot.

It's unlikely to the point of practical immunity. In fact, in some ways, it's better, because players who think "It could happen!" are fooled into making a false choice.

**Wolfblade**

Martel732 wrote:
"And are immune to S7 spam."

So are riptides, unfortunately.

Not like the Land raider is. Clearly it's the better unit.

Traditio wrote:

Situational. The Land Raider is way more durable than the Riptide.

Lolno.

AV 14 is the equiv of T11 though, being immune to S7 and below fire. Riptide is only T6 as far as I can tell.

**Martel732**

Wolfblade wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"And are immune to S7 spam."

So are riptides, unfortunately.

Not like the Land raider is. Clearly it's the better unit.

I just explained how the riptide situation is still better. Giving people false hope is very powerful.

**raverrn**

The size of the model doesn't support it. In terms of balance, I'd personally be happy just to call it a GC and make it a 400 point model.

It's larger than all the Primarch models.

IKs have 4+ invulns, no? Which IK are you thinking of which can get a 3+ invuln?

+1 to invuln saves is one of the most common IK formation benefits.

That's how much a cheap IK costs.

So you're comparing an AV melee-only SHV Walker with a ranged MC on the basis of what? They both have invuln saves?

Non sequitur. It's my understanding that LoWs are considered well balanced in HH, but there is still a points restriction to how many you can take. And this is considered well balanced in terms of the overall game.

I eagerly await your 30k Tau codex: featuring Riptides!

You understand that what you just said is completely asinine, right? This is a stupid quibble that completely misses the point of what I intended. A landraider has 4 hull points. A riptide has 6 wounds. In terms of overall durability, the landraider is way more durable.

5 wounds, to start. I'll chalk that up to ignorance instead of malice. Against any weapon of S7 or lower the Land Raider is infinitely more durable. That's a vast swathe of the game - including the vast majority of melee attacks! The Land Raider is also much more durable against any weapons that cause instant death, against weapons or powers that target leadership...

7/10 4/10. Getting better.

**pumaman1**

Martel732 wrote:
pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"And are immune to S7 spam."

So are riptides, unfortunately.

riptides aren't immune from s3 spam, as it wounds on 6's, unlikely is not the same as immune.

How about this, the riptide as a MC with multi-tracker can fire 3 weapons a turn, barring ordinance. It can choose give up its riptide shield gen and bring weapons on both arms, for a cost (40 pts whatever)? 2 hbc, 2 IA, 1 of each, but then it has no invul at all.
Could even make a way to say it gives up the nova profile, but that over-hits the HBC. unless that profile changes to a over-charge for the gets hot.

It's unlikely to the point of practical immunity. In fact, in some ways, it's better, because players who think "It could happen!" are fooled into making a false choice.

well would you rather get a vaccination that carries practically no chance of getting polio, or the one with no chance of getting polio. it is an important difference. a 50 man guard blob of conscripts shoot 100 times, hit 33, wound 5-6, unsaved 1-2. first rank fire second rank fire make it 50 hits, 8 wounds more probable 1-2 unsaved. and that's generally a throw away unit.

**Traditio**

Wolfblade wrote:AV 14 is the equiv of T11 though, being immune to S7 and below fire. Riptide is only T6 as far as I can tell.

What you are engaging in right now is sophistic, purely rhetorical points-scoring. I highly doubt that you are typing all of this with a straight face.

For what it's worth, though:

Actual table-top experience and play-testing by any riptide player ever and any landraider player ever (at least in this or last edition) begs to differ.

**Wolfblade**

Martel732 wrote:
Wolfblade wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"And are immune to S7 spam."

So are riptides, unfortunately.

Not like the Land raider is. Clearly it's the better unit.

I just explained how the riptide situation is still better. Giving people false hope is very powerful.

Land raiders will take exactly 0 HP damage from 1000 S7 AP4 BS3 shots. Riptide takes 37.037... wounds. Far from immune.

(Yes, I'm being facetious about this because LRs still suck despite being more durable vs S7 or less)

Traditio wrote:

Actual table-top experience and play-testing by any riptide player ever and any landraider player ever (at least in this or last edition) begs to differ.

And that's because *drum roll* vehicles suck! Most are overcosted for what they do, or have confused roles (i.e. the LR is a transport gunship, but sucks at being a gunship)

Again, you're comparing units with different roles and trying to balance them vs each other. Next, I demand you balance LRs vs cultists, because cultists can't even begin to hurt it! Same with gaunts or dakka tyrants.

See how dumb that is?

**Martel732**

pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"And are immune to S7 spam."

So are riptides, unfortunately.

riptides aren't immune from s3 spam, as it wounds on 6's, unlikely is not the same as immune.

How about this, the riptide as a MC with multi-tracker can fire 3 weapons a turn, barring ordinance. It can choose give up its riptide shield gen and bring weapons on both arms, for a cost (40 pts whatever)? 2 hbc, 2 IA, 1 of each, but then it has no invul at all.
Could even make a way to say it gives up the nova profile, but that over-hits the HBC. unless that profile changes to a over-charge for the gets hot.

It's unlikely to the point of practical immunity. In fact, in some ways, it's better, because players who think "It could happen!" are fooled into making a false choice.

well would you rather get a vaccination that carries practically no chance of getting polio, or the one with no chance of getting polio. it is an important difference. a 50 man guard blob of conscripts shoot 100 times, hit 33, wound 5-6, unsaved 1-2. first rank fire second rank fire make it 50 hits, 8 wounds more probable 1-2 unsaved. and that's generally a throw away unit.

Stimtides soak 89% of all non AP-2 wounds. 5-6 wounds statistically clears less than one.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wolfblade wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Wolfblade wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"And are immune to S7 spam."

So are riptides, unfortunately.

Not like the Land raider is. Clearly it's the better unit.

I just explained how the riptide situation is still better. Giving people false hope is very powerful.

Land raiders will take exactly 0 HP damage from 1000 S7 AP4 BS3 shots. Riptide takes 37.037... wounds. Far from immune.

(Yes, I'm being facetious about this because LRs still suck despite being more durable vs S7 or less)

No, it's still immune because no list has 1000 S7 shots. I think you're being willfully ignorant of the Riptide's insane durability. You can shoot entire lists at a Riptide and accomplish nothing pretty easily.

**raverrn**

It's almost like it's near-impossible to compare a vehicle and MC because they're vastly different. Maybe the Riptide should be priced depending on it's own impact on the battlefield and not on the impact a tank that hasn't been repriced in a decade has.

**Martel732**

raverrn wrote:
It's almost like it's near-impossible to compare a vehicle and MC because they're vastly different. Maybe the Riptide should be priced depending on it's own impact on the battlefield and not on the impact a tank that hasn't been repriced in a decade has.

Agreed.

**Wolfblade**

Martel732 wrote:

No, it's still immune because no list has 1000 S7 shots. I think you're being willfully ignorant of the Riptide's insane durability. You can shoot entire lists at a Riptide and accomplish nothing pretty easily.

Did you miss the last line I put in there? It's a dumb idea to try and compare a riptide vs a LR as not only do they have massively different roles (and thus impact on the game), but comparing vehicles to MCs is a bad idea because vehicles are terrible, and MCs are generally not. (unless they're nids)

**Traditio**

raverrn wrote:It's larger than all the Primarch models.

Are primarchs GMCs?

If not, then what's your point?

+1 to invuln saves is one of the most common IK formation benefits.

That's a formation benefit. It's not built into the model.

So you're comparing an AV melee-only SHV Walker with a ranged MC on the basis of what? They both have invuln saves?

A shooty IK is 375. I'm assuming any unbiased person will admit that a riptide is better than a landraider but not as good as a shooty IK.

325 points.

5 wounds, to start. I'll chalk that up to ignorance instead of malice.

See edited version of my posting.

Against any weapon of S7 or lower the Land Raider is infinitely more durable.

I'll leave this to Martel.

In principle? Sure.

In actual point of fact? Not really. It's "can't happen" vs. "not going to happen."

The Land Raider is also much more durable against any weapons that cause instant death, against weapons or powers that target leadership...

And riptides get a 2+ armor, a 5+ invuln (at least) and (normally) a 5+ feel no pain. In addition to this, they also can't explode and aren't impeded in terms of their table top usefulness as they take damage.

325 points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
raverrn wrote:
It's almost like it's near-impossible to compare a vehicle and MC because they're vastly different. Maybe the Riptide should be priced depending on it's own impact on the battlefield and not on the impact a tank that hasn't been repriced in a decade has.

Agreed.

Martel, do you agree or disagree with my most recent suggestion?

1. Free feel no pain
2. No improvements possible to the 5+ invuln
3. Free ion accelerator
4. 325 points.

**Martel732**

Wolfblade wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

No, it's still immune because no list has 1000 S7 shots. I think you're being willfully ignorant of the Riptide's insane durability. You can shoot entire lists at a Riptide and accomplish nothing pretty easily.

Did you miss the last line I put in there? It's a dumb idea to try and compare a riptide vs a LR as not only do they have massively different roles (and thus impact on the game), but comparing vehicles to MCs is a bad idea because vehicles are terrible, and MCs are generally not. (unless they're nids)

Yeah, I read too fast. sorry.

**Traditio**

Wolfblade wrote:And that's because *drum roll* vehicles suck! Most are overcosted for what they do, or have confused roles (i.e. the LR is a transport gunship, but sucks at being a gunship)

And again I repeat my question, which nobody can seem to answer:

Vehicles suck compared to what? Under the assumption of what metas?

Again, against lascannons and missile launchers, landraiders are just fine.

Again, you're comparing units with different roles and trying to balance them vs each other. Next, I demand you balance LRs vs cultists, because cultists can't even begin to hurt it! Same with gaunts or dakka tyrants.

See how dumb that is?

In principle, everything in the game should be balanced against everything else in the game. That's why points costs exist.

And again, it's really not so different. What you are paying for when you pay for a landraider is the 14 AV. You are paying for durability. Riptides are much more durable and have better firepower to boot.

**pumaman1**

Martel732 wrote:

No, it's still immune because no list has 1000 S7 shots. I think you're being willfully ignorant of the Riptide's insane durability. You can shoot entire lists at a Riptide and accomplish nothing pretty easily.

It is called hyperbole, it was exaggerated to show a point. no army can shoot 1000 s7 shots in a turn, but it clearly shows that even if it were true, the landraider doesn't have chipped paint, and 6 riptides are dead. IT shows it is still durable, but distinctly not immune. And claiming that it is immune detracts from the validity of the arguments you make, to me at least. Because a pigeon is a feathered flying creature in the the same kingdom and genus is almost a falcon, therefore it is a falcon, is false.

**Martel732**

Actually, I truly don't want to disrupt Tau builds that much. Also, simple is good. Make the Riptide 3+ instead of 2+ and see how it shakes out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

No, it's still immune because no list has 1000 S7 shots. I think you're being willfully ignorant of the Riptide's insane durability. You can shoot entire lists at a Riptide and accomplish nothing pretty easily.

It is called hyperbole, it was exaggerated to show a point. no army can shoot 1000 s7 shots in a turn, but it clearly shows that even if it were true, the landraider doesn't have chipped paint, and 6 riptides are dead. IT shows it is still durable, but distinctly not immune. And claiming that it is immune detracts from the validity of the arguments you make, to me at least. Because a pigeon is a feathered flying creature in the the same kingdom and genus is almost a falcon, therefore it is a falcon, is false.

I'm saying functionally/practically immune. Which is better than absolute immunity, because players will try to get lucky and fail.

"Again, against lascannons and missile launchers, landraiders are just fine. "

No. They're bad even against lists that can't hurt them. You're paying 250 pts to do nothing.

**Traditio**

pumaman1 wrote:It is called hyperbole, it was exaggerated to show a point. no army can shoot 1000 s7 shots in a turn, but it clearly shows that even if it were true, the landraider doesn't have chipped paint, and 6 riptides are dead.

Again, so what? This is abstract math-hammering that will literally never apply to the table top. Practically speaking, the results are the same. In the course of 5-7 turns, neither the riptide nor the landraider is going to go down to comparable firepower.

The landraider, however, can explode if shot with lascannons or melta.

The riptide won't, assuming those shots even get past its invuln and FNP.

**pumaman1**

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I truly don't want to disrupt Tau builds that much. Also, simple is good. Make the Riptide 3+ instead of 2+ and see how it shakes out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

No, it's still immune because no list has 1000 S7 shots. I think you're being willfully ignorant of the Riptide's insane durability. You can shoot entire lists at a Riptide and accomplish nothing pretty easily.

It is called hyperbole, it was exaggerated to show a point. no army can shoot 1000 s7 shots in a turn, but it clearly shows that even if it were true, the landraider doesn't have chipped paint, and 6 riptides are dead. IT shows it is still durable, but distinctly not immune. And claiming that it is immune detracts from the validity of the arguments you make, to me at least. Because a pigeon is a feathered flying creature in the the same kingdom and genus is almost a falcon, therefore it is a falcon, is false.

I'm saying functionally/practically immune. Which is better than absolute immunity, because players will try to get lucky and fail.

or get lucky and succeed. luck goes both ways. heck the nova charge might kill the riptide for you in the course of the game. no better odds than 1/3 to save a failed roll.

**raverrn**

That's a formation benefit. It's not built into the model.

As the formations are in the IK codex, the model was most certainly priced with them in mind.

A shooty IK is 375. I'm assuming any unbiased person will admit that a riptide is better than a landraider but not as good as a shooty IK. 325 points.

This is not how pricing units works.

And riptides get a 2+ armor, a 5+ invuln (at least) and (normally) a 5+ feel no pain. In addition to this, they also can't explode and aren't impeded in terms of their table top usefulness as they take damage.

I agree, the way a Riptide resolves enemy attacks is vastly different than the way a Land Raider or Imperial Knight does.

**Martel732**

pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I truly don't want to disrupt Tau builds that much. Also, simple is good. Make the Riptide 3+ instead of 2+ and see how it shakes out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

No, it's still immune because no list has 1000 S7 shots. I think you're being willfully ignorant of the Riptide's insane durability. You can shoot entire lists at a Riptide and accomplish nothing pretty easily.

It is called hyperbole, it was exaggerated to show a point. no army can shoot 1000 s7 shots in a turn, but it clearly shows that even if it were true, the landraider doesn't have chipped paint, and 6 riptides are dead. IT shows it is still durable, but distinctly not immune. And claiming that it is immune detracts from the validity of the arguments you make, to me at least. Because a pigeon is a feathered flying creature in the the same kingdom and genus is almost a falcon, therefore it is a falcon, is false.

I'm saying functionally/practically immune. Which is better than absolute immunity, because players will try to get lucky and fail.

or get lucky and succeed. luck goes both ways. heck the nova charge might kill the riptide for you in the course of the game. no better odds than 1/3 to save a failed roll.

You won't succeed. It takes 81 BS 4 boltgun shots to cause a SINGLE WOUND. Those same boltgun shots would be better used vs even Broadsides. Creating the illusion of choice is much better than just being outright immune.

**Traditio**

raverrn wrote:As the formations are in the IK codex, the model was most certainly priced with them in mind.

What reason do I have to assume this?

An IK costs the same whether you take the formation or not.

And the cost of a tactical marine didn't change in 7th edition when formations were added.

This is not how pricing units works.

Points costs are measures of table-top utility. If x costs 25, y costs 50 and z costs 75, what that means is that y is supposed to be better than x, but not as good as z.

Everything in the game has a points cost. As such, everything in the game can be compared to every other thing in the game.

Wolfblade will appeal to cultists vs. landraiders but I'll answer that it's a legitimate comparison.

Would you rather have 60 or so cultists or 1 landraider?

If that's even a legitimate question, then they are comparable.

I agree, the way a Riptide resolves enemy attacks is vastly different than the way a Land Raider or Imperial Knight does.

This is pure obfuscation/smoke and mirrors.

Everyone but Tau players know that riptides, practically speaking, are more durable than landraiders.

And tau players actually know it too. They just don't want people to complain about it.

**pumaman1**

Martel732 wrote:
pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I truly don't want to disrupt Tau builds that much. Also, simple is good. Make the Riptide 3+ instead of 2+ and see how it shakes out.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pumaman1 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:

No, it's still immune because no list has 1000 S7 shots. I think you're being willfully ignorant of the Riptide's insane durability. You can shoot entire lists at a Riptide and accomplish nothing pretty easily.

It is called hyperbole, it was exaggerated to show a point. no army can shoot 1000 s7 shots in a turn, but it clearly shows that even if it were true, the landraider doesn't have chipped paint, and 6 riptides are dead. IT shows it is still durable, but distinctly not immune. And claiming that it is immune detracts from the validity of the arguments you make, to me at least. Because a pigeon is a feathered flying creature in the the same kingdom and genus is almost a falcon, therefore it is a falcon, is false.

I'm saying functionally/practically immune. Which is better than absolute immunity, because players will try to get lucky and fail.

or get lucky and succeed. luck goes both ways. heck the nova charge might kill the riptide for you in the course of the game. no better odds than 1/3 to save a failed roll.

You won't succeed. It takes 81 BS 4 boltgun shots to cause a SINGLE WOUND. Those same boltgun shots would be better used vs even Broadsides. Creating the illusion of choice is much better than just being outright immune.

False, you are unlikely to, not impossible to. dice roll "randomly." everyone can do the math

**Traditio**

pumaman wrote:False, you are unlikely to, not impossible to. dice roll "randomly." everyone can do the math

When's the last time one of your riptides went down to boltgun fire?

If your answer is "never, lol; I've never even seen that happen," then you have no leg to stand on.

**pumaman1**

Traditio wrote:

Everyone but Tau players know that riptides, practically speaking, are more durable than landraiders.

And tau players actually know it too. They just don't want people to complain about it.

that's because every tau player has had a riptide swept in CC from cultists/guard etc. overconfidence/overstating its durability leads to bad plays.

I've lost riptides to 1turn, nova fail, wound, ovrcharge (i want that template) gets hot, roll 1 wound, no shot. their turn 1, 2 las cannon shots, 1 wound, 3/5 wounds before anything. Turn 2, move up to get angle to fire, nova-fail so 4 wounds. Do about 60 points in damage, fall to tac squad shooting bolt guns, with 4 1's rolled.

**raverrn**

All right, all right. I'm tired of trolling Traditio, so I suppose I'll add something to this discussion. There's a core issue with the Riptide that none of these threads seem to bring up, and that's the difference between casual and competitive play.

In a competitive environment, matched against Libby Conclaves, Wraithknights, IC GravCents and the like, the Riptide is absolutely fine. Yes it's got a 2+ 3++ 5+++, but that's simply what it takes to survive in that kind of game.

In a casual game the ability to kill a Riptide comes down to matchup. Certain armies can do it - Eldar, AdMech and the like - and others can ignore it, but I'd go so far as to say more lists can't handle it than can.

So, unifying those two aspects is quite a bit harder than *hurf durf make it cost 300 points*. The durability and price probably can't flex much - maybe making the stims more expensive, or even making them a signature system could be doable. Nerfs to the IA are also possible, as most competitive players go for the HBC. Maybe make the overcharge a small blast and the nova a large?

Edit: Another random thought - nerfs to Blacksun Filters?