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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 06:45:03
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Martel732 wrote:Notice the theme? Lots of stuff can theoretically win in CC, but only after the game is over and it has done its damage to you.
I noticed a theme , you guys don't realize your winning every turn its in CC even though its not dead
Having the Riptide in CC is already a win for you. If i have a riptide in CC , its dead to me. Its not going to fulfill its role and what i brought for. It can't shoot ap3 pie plates and vaporise marines. It can't use the HBC against hordes or fliers. Even if it wins in 3 turns its still a total loss for those 3 turns. People are too obsessed with killing it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/28 06:45:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 11:44:57
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot
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How exactly do you propose to get your 6" move, no Assault Transport unit into combat with a 7"+ move unit?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 11:50:50
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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kambien wrote:Martel732 wrote:Notice the theme? Lots of stuff can theoretically win in CC, but only after the game is over and it has done its damage to you.
I noticed a theme , you guys don't realize your winning every turn its in CC even though its not dead
Having the Riptide in CC is already a win for you. If i have a riptide in CC , its dead to me. Its not going to fulfill its role and what i brought for. It can't shoot ap3 pie plates and vaporise marines. It can't use the HBC against hordes or fliers. Even if it wins in 3 turns its still a total loss for those 3 turns. People are too obsessed with killing it.
Please explain how having a more expensive unit tied down in combat with a Riptide for the rest of the game is somehow "a win"?
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 13:10:57
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Iirc 5 wraith blades are 150pts, far less than an IA riptide. Lobby depends on what squad he runs with, and what he rolls.
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DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 13:22:31
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Fixture of Dakka
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Five Wraithblades aren't going to do much either.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 13:24:04
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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kambien wrote:Martel732 wrote:Notice the theme? Lots of stuff can theoretically win in CC, but only after the game is over and it has done its damage to you.
I noticed a theme , you guys don't realize your winning every turn its in CC even though its not dead
Having the Riptide in CC is already a win for you. If i have a riptide in CC , its dead to me. Its not going to fulfill its role and what i brought for. It can't shoot ap3 pie plates and vaporise marines. It can't use the HBC against hordes or fliers. Even if it wins in 3 turns its still a total loss for those 3 turns. People are too obsessed with killing it.
No, I want my unit to be able to do something else. And CC is SUPPOSED to be a weakness of the Tau. Tau aren't supposed to be an infinite tarpit.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 14:00:56
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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pm713 wrote:Five Wraithblades aren't going to do much either.
Sure, I wasn't saying they were, simply replying to:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Please explain how having a more expensive unit tied down in combat with a Riptide for the rest of the game is somehow "a win"?
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DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 14:32:33
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Martel732 wrote:kambien wrote:Martel732 wrote:Notice the theme? Lots of stuff can theoretically win in CC, but only after the game is over and it has done its damage to you.
I noticed a theme , you guys don't realize your winning every turn its in CC even though its not dead
Having the Riptide in CC is already a win for you. If i have a riptide in CC , its dead to me. Its not going to fulfill its role and what i brought for. It can't shoot ap3 pie plates and vaporise marines. It can't use the HBC against hordes or fliers. Even if it wins in 3 turns its still a total loss for those 3 turns. People are too obsessed with killing it.
No, I want my unit to be able to do something else. And CC is SUPPOSED to be a weakness of the Tau. Tau aren't supposed to be an infinite tarpit.
From my experiences, if I'm playing against Riptides, I almost always sweep them in CC. Like, that's just a common occurrence. Hell, last night I made my friends Riptide run off the table without inflicting a single wound just because he put his drones out front.
CC is still a weakness of Tau.
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40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 14:40:10
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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You must play against the unluckiest Tau players ever.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 14:42:02
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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A. Luck is a small part of the game.
B. I've played against multiple different Tau players. The typical strategy is to ignore/tarpit the Riptides. And the tarpit usually ends up sweeping the Riptide. Ask JA, I've done that to him numerous times.
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40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 14:57:05
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I've tried ignoring the Riptides, but the rest of the Tau aren't exactly fragile to Imperial shooting unless you are list tailoring.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 14:57:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 14:58:15
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Martel732 wrote:I've tried ignoring the Riptides, but the rest of the Tau aren't exactly fragile to Imperial shooting unless you are list tailoring.
They're fragile to Necron shooting. Which for me is usually Gauss Flayers and Tesla Carbines, with maybe some Deathmarks thrown in. Are you saying Imperial shooting can't top that?
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40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:06:00
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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krodarklorr wrote:Martel732 wrote:I've tried ignoring the Riptides, but the rest of the Tau aren't exactly fragile to Imperial shooting unless you are list tailoring.
They're fragile to Necron shooting. Which for me is usually Gauss Flayers and Tesla Carbines, with maybe some Deathmarks thrown in. Are you saying Imperial shooting can't top that?
Maybe with list tailoring. But I've given up on shooting with BA, because they are awful at it. Bolters, heavy bolters, lascannons, multi-meltas, missile launchers are all poor weapons in 7th ed. Also, firewarriors will likely have cover, and most Imperial ignore cover weapons can't penetrate their armor. I;ve got heavy flamers in my tac squads, but they never reach their destination vs Tau.
Something like a Baal pred would be useful, except that it sucks so hard against lots of other lists. Baal preds can't hurt the Broadsides, can't hurt the Riptides, and can't hurt MCs in general b/c of the 3+ armor. So I can't take them.
The markerlights are supposed to be fragile, but thanks the magic of ruins, they're pretty hard to kill.
Imperials are slinging back so many fewer shots that Tau in practice are more durable in that particular matchup.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/07/28 15:17:25
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:28:50
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Fixture of Dakka
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T3 4+ is hard to kill?
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:30:50
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Martel732 wrote:I've tried ignoring the Riptides, but the rest of the Tau aren't exactly fragile to Imperial shooting unless you are list tailoring.
BA have libby dreadnaughts, force kills riptides dead. BA can roll to get Veil of time, taking Cattaphrati Termies gives you a re roll of a 4++ against AP2.
You have the tools.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 15:31:04
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:32:05
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Dug into cover using Imperial weapons, yes. We can't ignore cover without getting lucky with a psyker roll or using AP 5 weapons.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:32:06
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Having a hard time killing pathfinders? BA have access to ignore cover powers, heavy flamers etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:33:07
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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thejughead wrote:Martel732 wrote:I've tried ignoring the Riptides, but the rest of the Tau aren't exactly fragile to Imperial shooting unless you are list tailoring.
BA have libby dreadnaughts, force kills riptides dead. BA can roll to get Veil of time, taking Cattaphrati Termies gives you a re roll of a 4++ against AP2.
You have the tools.
Again, list tailoring. I would never use a libby dreadnought for anything other than tailoring against Tau. Cattapharcti terminators? I don't think BA get those, but being terminators, I'm sure they suck.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
thejughead wrote:Having a hard time killing pathfinders? BA have access to ignore cover powers, heavy flamers etc.
Heavy flamers are all wiped out before they can fire. Randomly rolling on the divination tree doesn't work, and the Tau will just murder that libby first.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/28 15:34:18
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:34:04
Subject: Re:Balancing Riptides
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Lord of the Fleet
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Hey, Martel, remember when this thread was about balancing Riptides, and not a BA whine/tactics thread?
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Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:34:35
Subject: Re:Balancing Riptides
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Blacksails wrote:Hey, Martel, remember when this thread was about balancing Riptides, and not a BA whine/tactics thread?
True. Got derailed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:35:32
Subject: Re:Balancing Riptides
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Lord of the Fleet
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Happens to the best of us. You have valuable input, you just sometimes go off on the BA tangent too far.
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Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:36:21
Subject: Re:Balancing Riptides
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Blacksails wrote:Happens to the best of us. You have valuable input, you just sometimes go off on the BA tangent too far.
I get tired of being told to ignore the Riptides. It doesn't work.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:36:44
Subject: Re:Balancing Riptides
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Blacksails wrote:Hey, Martel, remember when this thread was about balancing Riptides, and not a BA whine/tactics thread?
Which boils down to Space Marine whine thread about Tau.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:39:26
Subject: Re:Balancing Riptides
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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thejughead wrote: Blacksails wrote:Hey, Martel, remember when this thread was about balancing Riptides, and not a BA whine/tactics thread?
Which boils down to Space Marine whine thread about Tau.
All I can tell you is to army swap with me and see how fun your game is. I hope you brought a croupier stick.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 15:42:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 15:45:24
Subject: Re:Balancing Riptides
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Martel732 wrote: thejughead wrote: Blacksails wrote:Hey, Martel, remember when this thread was about balancing Riptides, and not a BA whine/tactics thread?
Which boils down to Space Marine whine thread about Tau.
All I can tell you is to army swap with me and see how fun your game is. I hope you brought a croupier stick.
All I can tell you is my friend plays strictly BA. He's never complained. He's beaten me as much as I beat him. These are tournament lists that are very all comer so it wasn't list tailoring.
So I say again, you have the tools.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel,
The part I don't understand is the obsession with killing them. You don't need to kill them. You just need to turn off their shooting for a couple of turns. If a riptide is killing 3 marine a turn then you've won. You have more obsec units that can survive in cover. You have to play the mission (ITC or otherwise).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/28 15:52:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 16:00:00
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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There is no cover vs Tau. I've learned this the hard way. Tau KNOW I'm going for the marker lights, so they protect them with tougher units and Tide Walls.
Because if the Riptide doesn't die, my unit is effectively removed as well. Tau come ahead, because they have more units. And their numbers advantage only grows as they shoot my list to pieces. That's why I want mortal Riptides. Otherwise, they kill, kill, kill at range, then kill one more unit in the one that has to charge them. You can't win giving three units for one, especially with marines, and especially on a unit that costs less than 250.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/28 16:03:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 16:08:56
Subject: Re:Balancing Riptides
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Lord of the Fleet
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thejughead wrote: Blacksails wrote:Hey, Martel, remember when this thread was about balancing Riptides, and not a BA whine/tactics thread?
Which boils down to Space Marine whine thread about Tau.
Which you're perpetuating.
If you don't like it, then get back to the OP about actually balancing Tau. What other people play doesn't matter; the content of their posts is the only thing worth discussing.
The Riptide compared to the other top codices isn't particularly overpowered. Certainly a great unit with excellent buffs that lets it compete with the likes of certain deathstars and Eldar and Gladius armies. Compared to mid and low tiers armies, it is pretty fairly seen as overpowered, especially when all the buffs are considered. This thread is a discussion about how to balance the Riptide. If you feel it doesn't need any work, feel free to say so and let other people work on a solution for their group. Additionally, and tangentially related is the general disparity of MCs to vehicles, as the Riptide (and other Tau MCs) are universally superior to Tau vehicles. Balancing the Riptide and/or all MCs has the side effect of making more of the Tau codex worth taking.
But really, stating in various ways that other factions (namely Marines) have to stop whining and L2P, deal with it, or generally told to sod off isn't helping anyone.
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Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 16:11:16
Subject: Balancing Riptides
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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How can this be? Your strengths are MSU, Force, scoring. You should be out numbering Tau 2:1, especially if they have multiple riptides.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 16:18:47
Subject: Re:Balancing Riptides
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Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot
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Blacksails wrote:
The Riptide compared to the other top codices isn't particularly overpowered. Certainly a great unit with excellent buffs that lets it compete with the likes of certain deathstars and Eldar and Gladius armies. Compared to mid and low tiers armies, it is pretty fairly seen as overpowered, especially when all the buffs are considered. This thread is a discussion about how to balance the Riptide.
Seriously, this. This is not the thread to discuss how trash-tier BA are (spoilers: very) or how hard Firewarriors are to kill (what even). Is there or is there not a way to soften the Riptide played into casual armies and players without removing the durability tournament players rely on?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/07/28 16:19:16
Subject: Re:Balancing Riptides
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine
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Blacksails wrote: thejughead wrote: Blacksails wrote:Hey, Martel, remember when this thread was about balancing Riptides, and not a BA whine/tactics thread?
Which boils down to Space Marine whine thread about Tau.
Which you're perpetuating.
If you don't like it, then get back to the OP about actually balancing Tau. What other people play doesn't matter; the content of their posts is the only thing worth discussing.
The Riptide compared to the other top codices isn't particularly overpowered. Certainly a great unit with excellent buffs that lets it compete with the likes of certain deathstars and Eldar and Gladius armies. Compared to mid and low tiers armies, it is pretty fairly seen as overpowered, especially when all the buffs are considered. This thread is a discussion about how to balance the Riptide. If you feel it doesn't need any work, feel free to say so and let other people work on a solution for their group. Additionally, and tangentially related is the general disparity of MCs to vehicles, as the Riptide (and other Tau MCs) are universally superior to Tau vehicles. Balancing the Riptide and/or all MCs has the side effect of making more of the Tau codex worth taking.
But really, stating in various ways that other factions (namely Marines) have to stop whining and L2P, deal with it, or generally told to sod off isn't helping anyone.
It doesn't need balancing. You need to have a conversation with the Tau player to lower their count. If I'm playing for fun and I bring more than 2 then shame one me.
If the case is for fun then take more points than the Tau player. That is how you balance the riptide. This is not the impression I get from this thread. Its more of how can we tone it down so I can beat it in a tournament. Correct me if I'm wrong?
Its a folly trying to redesign units from a codex. I would never agree to it being a vehicle, because that not what was intended in the codex.
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