UK Politics

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**Whirlwind**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Which dogs, though? I'm surprised the Daily Mail hasn't called for a boycott of German shepherds .

The German Shepherds will probably get off lightly. They might be promoting the ritual sacrifice to the Devil of Scottish Collies before the year is out the way they are going!

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Ketara, many of the problems you highlighted were external problems beyond our control (Cuban Missile crisis)

my focus is on the areas we do have control of: schools, NHS, prisons, roads, the economy etc etc

I believe in empirical evidence, and that evidence is showing a marked decline that is accelerating at a rate of knots.

One example, wages and wealth distribution in the UK.

There has always been a gap between rich and poor in the UK, but since the 1970s that gap has become a chasm, an ocean, and it gets worse and worse with each passing year.

We have hard evidence of this. It's only going to get worse, and nobody is tackling it. That's decline in my book.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Whirlwind wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

Which dogs, though? I'm surprised the Daily Mail hasn't called for a boycott of German shepherds .

The German Shepherds will probably get off lightly. They might be promoting the ritual sacrifice to the Devil of Scottish Collies before the year is out the way they are going!

It's only a question of time, but I expect the Daily Mail's rebuild Hadrian's wall campaign to be launched any day now.

**Ian Sturrock**

Any time I see people complaining about how things were so much better in their day, usually accompanied by complaints about out-of-control-youths, I want to share this:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything

So there you go. Mostly we get more and more nostalgic and conservative as we get old. It's worth fighting against that. It's probably one of the most rubbish and inevitable of the many cognitive biases. But you can do your level best to at least be aware of it.

Britain is very prosperous right now. But so much of that prosperity is tied up with international projects, international trade, etc.

The one big area where most people are significantly less prosperous than previously is home ownership. But that's down to two main factors -- the 80s Tory council house selloff, and the general tendency of property prices to rise over time in a well-off country. Fortunately Brexit will kind of address the latter... but only by making us poorer.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Ian Sturrock wrote:
Any time I see people complaining about how things were so much better in their day, usually accompanied by complaints about out-of-control-youths, I want to share this:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/52209/15-historical-complaints-about-young-people-ruining-everything

So there you go. Mostly we get more and more nostalgic and conservative as we get old. It's worth fighting against that. It's probably one of the most rubbish and inevitable of the many cognitive biases. But you can do your level best to at least be aware of it.

Britain is very prosperous right now. But so much of that prosperity is tied up with international projects, international trade, etc.

The one big area where most people are significantly less prosperous than previously is home ownership. But that's down to two main factors -- the 80s Tory council house selloff, and the general tendency of property prices to rise over time in a well-off country. Fortunately Brexit will kind of address the latter... but only by making us poorer.

I'm not some angry man shouting at a cloud. Hard evidence tells us that the wage gap is real, and has been getting bigger since the 1970s.

This is from the top of my head, so I could be wrong, but in the 1970s, for every £1 created in wealth, 30 pence went to the working classes.

In 2017 it's something like 5 pence in the pound is going to the working classes

The average wage has risen by 5%. Bosses wages have risen on average of 832% in the same time

This is a real problem, a growing problem, and a failure to tackle it will only lead to more votes like Brexit.

Top economists have been warning about this for years, but their voices are not heeded.

**Herzlos**

But then living standards of the poor are vastly improved from the 70's as well; more people have cars, TVs, microwaves, and things like phones/computers that didn't exist then.

The wage gap is certainly obscene, but in reality I don't think the 70's would be much better for anyone than now, and a return to the 70's would help no-one.

Not that we shouldn't be doing more to improve things, but until we get rid of the Tories it just ain't going to happen.

**Ian Sturrock**

The wage disparity is real, and we do need to act on it, but most working people are still better off than they were in the 70s and 80s, in terms of happiness and overall standard of living. And again -- Brexit won't address the wage disparity; if anything it will make it worse. The main beneficiaries will be the ultra-rich.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Ketara wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
[
Mate, the country has been going to the dogs for the last 3 decades, are you seriously only must now know noticing?

The 80's were that good?

Everyone always believes their country is getting worse. Well documented phenomena. Truth is that people just don't like change. Some things get better, some things get worse, and which is which usually depends on the person looking at it. In thirty years time, everyone will be screaming about the corruption in our elected second chamber, our tearing up a trade agreement with America, our third invasion of Afghanistan, or whatever. Brexit will have long ceased to be something anyone cares about.

Yes its a well documented phenomenon. But that doesn't mean its not true.

I would argue that Britain's international standing and reputation took a severe blow after the scandal of the Iraq war. Our reputation and foreign relations are objectively worse than before.

Our military is being cut to the bone, we're losing experience and its operational effectiveness is objectively worse than before. Can we still project the same amount of sea power today as the fleet that liberated the Falklands?

The NHS is in a permanent crisis. Funding is being squeezed, privatization has been a disaster. It is objectively worse than say a decade ago.

When I say the country has been going to the dogs for three decades, I mean that we've had 5 successive incompetent and sometimes corrupt governments that have mismanaged the country, probably going back to Major. That's not to say that the 80s were any better, but I was born in 1991 so I'm limiting my argument to the span of my own lifetime. Any further back in time than that is beyond my ability or remit to judge.

**reds8n**

Spoiler:

Sarah Vine -- wife of Gove -- outlines the Scottish independence options.

.. one assumes that when you hit a certain level of income -- much like that guy from the House of Lords with the silver staircase -- you lose all sense of proportionality and any ability to detect irony.

think this would be bigger news :

remember all those stories we were told about how the EU wanted to break up the UK into regions and etc etc blah blah.

.. and it's UKIP and the torys who do it after all.

**Kilkrazy**

Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah. Brexit is not going to significantly reduce immigration because half the economy depends on it. So that's one major thing that Leave voters are not getting, that most wanted.

And it's not going to significantly reduce the tyranny of EU rule for ordinary people because that didn't really exist. It will make big businesses, especially multinationals, a bit more profit because most of those pesky EU rules about things like safe food will no longer be a worry.

So -- it's a big win for US businesses who will find it easier to trade with Britain.

It's a big win for back-slapping nationalists who have convinced themselves that we can now finally free ourselves of the shackles of peace and prosperity, that for all these years stopped us from serving beer in pints or measuring distances in miles as is our God-given right as free Englishmen.

It's a big win for the old, also engaged in self-delusion, who are convinced that leaving the EU will magically turn back the clock to the 1950s, getting rid of feminism, gay marriage, racial equality, rebellious teenagers and the Beatles in one fell swoop.

It's a big lose for all my EU colleagues and friends who are suffering an increase in racist abuse and attacks, alongside the real risk of midnight deportations. But it's worth it for all the bendy bananas, right?

It's a big lose for most farmers, fishermen, and lots of other Leave-supporting communities, most of whom will see no particular benefit from this and will suffer significant financial losses instead.

It's a big lose for the young, who often identified as more European than British, and who will lose overnight the right to live and work anywhere in the EU.

Still. Beer in pints! Eh!

I remember beer in pints, and road signs in miles, and bendy cucumbers, and New Zealand butter, and yellow car headlights.

Those were the days, all right!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
[
Mate, the country has been going to the dogs for the last 3 decades, are you seriously only must now know noticing?

The 80's were that good?

Everyone always believes their country is getting worse. Well documented phenomena. Truth is that people just don't like change. Some things get better, some things get worse, and which is which usually depends on the person looking at it. In thirty years time, everyone will be screaming about the corruption in our elected second chamber, our tearing up a trade agreement with America, our third invasion of Afghanistan, or whatever. Brexit will have long ceased to be something anyone cares about.

I suspect in 30 years we will be applying to re-join the EU. I hope I live long enough to see that highly amusing day.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

I suspect in 30 years we will be applying to re-join the EU. I hope I live long enough to see that highly amusing day.

I doubt it'll last that long. And if it does, it'll be a rump state of the more prosperous, western/northern member states, not Eastern Europe and Greece.

**Kilkrazy**

In that case we probably won't be asking to rejoin.

I mean if it's the more prosperous member states. We won't be prosperous.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

The point is the EU is unlikely to survive in its up current form in the long term. The only way it can is by ejecting the weak Eastern economies that are holding it back, and shoring up its border security to stem the huge flow of migrants and refugees. How many more years of 1 million+ immigrants can Germany endure, for instance?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

And still the ongoing confusing twist refugees and migration....

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And still the ongoing confusing twist refugees and migration....

What confusion? Refugees are a form of immigrant. The two terms are not mutually exclusive.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

FFS.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

FFS yourself.

I'm using "immigrant" as a loose term here, meaning ANYONE that comes to live in a country, whether they be economic migrants or genuine refugees. Do I have to start citing dictionary definitions?

There is no confusion here on my part, so stop projecting.

**Haighus**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And still the ongoing confusing twist refugees and migration....

What confusion? Refugees are a form of immigrant. The two terms are not mutually exclusive.

Refugess are a type of migrant yes. But when people say migrant, they usually mean economic migrant, which is quite a different situation to a refugee. It is generally unhelpful to put the two together.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Haighus wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And still the ongoing confusing twist refugees and migration....

What confusion? Refugees are a form of immigrant. The two terms are not mutually exclusive.

Refugess are a type of migrant yes. But when people say migrant, they usually mean economic migrant, which is quite a different situation to a refugee. It is generally unhelpful to put the two together.

Granted. I'm simply using "Immigrant" in the most basic definition of the word "someone who comes to live in a country, often permanently". If you have a better alternative that doesn't trigger Mad Doc, I'm all ears.

**Future War Cultist**

Northern Ireland might have the right to leave the UK and join the Republic but there should be vote on both sides. Because I don't want to join the republic and I'm not sure the republic wants us either.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

lol, I wonder how the IRA and Sinn Fein will react if both Irelands reject unification?

**Future War Cultist**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
lol, I wonder how the IRA and Sinn Fein will react if both Irelands reject unification?

It would be funny to see.

**Co'tor Shas**

How popular is the idea of reuniting Ireland in Northern Ireland anyway? I can't imagine it's overwhelmingly popular otherwise it would have been done already.

**Future War Cultist**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
How popular is the idea of reuniting Ireland in Northern Ireland anyway? I can't imagine it's overwhelmingly popular otherwise it would have been done already.

It's really hard to tell. See I suspect that many Unionists would have voted to remain in the EU for things like the farm subsidies and to avoid awkward questions about the boarder (which is why the result here was 52-48 in favor of Remain) but if asked now if they'd vote to leave the UK and join the Republic they'd say no. And not every Catholic is going to be up for doing so either. I'm one of them. I didn't vote to leave the EU only to end up in a country even further bogged down in it.

Also, I know one thing that'll make the Republic hesitant to take us...Loyalist Paramilitaries. It'll be the Troubles in reverse...UDA and UVF gunmen killing Irish soldiers and Gardi, fighting to rejoin the UK or even create a country of their own. Make no mistake, they aren't fething around when they say no surrender. A few years ago the decision was made to not fly the Union flag 365 days a year over Belfast City Hall...and soon enough, there was widespread riots with the cops being shot at and everything. If they'll go that crazy over a flag, how crazy will they go over the reunification of Ireland?

**Co'tor Shas**

Future War Cultist wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
How popular is the idea of reuniting Ireland in Northern Ireland anyway? I can't imagine it's overwhelmingly popular otherwise it would have been done already.

It's really hard to tell. See I suspect that many Unionists would have voted to remain in the EU for things like the farm subsidies and to avoid awkward questions about the boarder (which is why the result here was 52-48 in favor of Remain) but if asked now if they'd vote to leave the UK and join the Republic they'd say no. And not every Catholic is going to be up for doing so either. I'm one of them. I didn't vote to leave the EU only to end up in a country even further bogged down in it.

Also, I know one thing that'll make the Republic hesitant to take us...Loyalist Paramilitaries. It'll be the Troubles in reverse...UDA and UVF gunmen killing Irish soldiers and Gardi, fighting to rejoin the UK or even create a country of their own. Make no mistake, they aren't fething around when they say no surrender. A few years ago the decision was made to not fly the Union flag 365 days a year over Belfast City Hall...and soon enough, there was widespread riots with the cops being shot at and everything. If they'll go that crazy over a flag, how crazy will they go over the reunification of Ireland?

Christ, I didn't realize it was still so heated over there, I assumed it had mostly died down.

**jhe90**

as of 10pm GMT

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4358056/Theresa-signs-Brexit-letter-trigger-Article-50.html

May has signed, the document will be delivered to Europe by lunch time.

**welshhoppo**

The brexit train has left the station. No backside!

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
Future War Cultist wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
How popular is the idea of reuniting Ireland in Northern Ireland anyway? I can't imagine it's overwhelmingly popular otherwise it would have been done already.

It's really hard to tell. See I suspect that many Unionists would have voted to remain in the EU for things like the farm subsidies and to avoid awkward questions about the boarder (which is why the result here was 52-48 in favor of Remain) but if asked now if they'd vote to leave the UK and join the Republic they'd say no. And not every Catholic is going to be up for doing so either. I'm one of them. I didn't vote to leave the EU only to end up in a country even further bogged down in it.

Also, I know one thing that'll make the Republic hesitant to take us...Loyalist Paramilitaries. It'll be the Troubles in reverse...UDA and UVF gunmen killing Irish soldiers and Gardi, fighting to rejoin the UK or even create a country of their own. Make no mistake, they aren't fething around when they say no surrender. A few years ago the decision was made to not fly the Union flag 365 days a year over Belfast City Hall...and soon enough, there was widespread riots with the cops being shot at and everything. If they'll go that crazy over a flag, how crazy will they go over the reunification of Ireland?

Christ, I didn't realize it was still so heated over there, I assumed it had mostly died down.

Still just organised crime with a thinly veiled 'religious' excuse. Same old, same old.

**Herzlos**

2nd independence referendum has been backed by Scottish Parliament:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-39422747

Which means May will have some new struggles in negotiating, in that it'll call into doubts anything she promises which may be withdrawn should Scotland split.

Interesting times, indeed.

**jhe90**

Herzlos wrote:
2nd independence referendum has been backed by Scottish Parliament:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-39422747

Which means May will have some new struggles in negotiating, in that it'll call into doubts anything she promises which may be withdrawn should Scotland split.

Interesting times, indeed.

Backed. But not cleared by Westminster.
Also if ran minus it as a non binding version m, it would come to some tricky debates over who pays for it, campaigning, if the parties in London chose to ignore it. Fight it etc. It would be somewhat difficult situation.
Just alot of political issues tied to it in general.

**Herzlos**

Yeah it's been rejected again by Westminster, at least in a "not until Brexit is done" which is their party line.

However, can May make a Brexit deal involving Scotland, if Scotland is then going to pull out of the UK afterwards? Would the EU agree to that? Is she hoping that Scotland will be bound by any agreements that the UK makes with the EU?