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I have googled for a while but can't find the answer to this simple question... What is the exact chain of command in an Astartes Chapter? Who can pull rank on who?
I have two guesses:
Guess n.1: Chapter Master - Captain - Veteran Sergeant - Sergeant - Veteran - Marine - Scout
Guess n.2: Chapter Master - Captain - Veteran Sergeant - Veteran - Sergeant - Marine - Scout

I have trouble imagining a sergeant pulling rank on a veteran, even more if the veteran has terminator honours, or belongs to the company command squad. But the Sergeant has the highest rank, as veteran is just a status... Or did I miss something?

Thanks for your answers

hypnoticeris wrote:
I have googled for a while but can't find the answer to this simple question... What is the exact chain of command in an Astartes Chapter? Who can pull rank on who?
I have two guesses:
Guess n.1: Chapter Master - Captain - Veteran Sergeant - Sergeant - Veteran - Marine - Scout
Guess n.2: Chapter Master - Captain - Veteran Sergeant - Veteran - Sergeant - Marine - Scout

I have trouble imagining a sergeant pulling rank on a veteran, even more if the veteran has terminator honours, or belongs to the company command squad. But the Sergeant has the highest rank, as veteran is just a status... Or did I miss something?

Thanks for your answers

A Veteran is not in a command position, so would rarely need to order the Sergeant around. Also, Veterans and Sergeants happen on a similar point in a Space Marine's life - they either become Sergeants or Veterans, so I'd label them an equal rank in most cases. However, Veteran Sergeants exist, so I'd assume that it's the second option.

Most but not all chapters, usual structure of command

Chapter master ->Officer core* -> First company Captain -> Captains -> Sargents -> Battle brothers -> Scouts

Officer core is broken down as such

Head Chaplin -> Chaplins
Head librarian -> Librarians
Head Apothecary ->Apothecaries
Master of the forge ->Tech marines

Most head of officer cores cant really pull rank on one another, officer positions and subsaquint positions under them do not operate under the normal doctrine and exist outside of the 1000 battle brothers set by the Codices.

Captains cant pull rank over other captains unless its the first company because usually they are the vanguard/honor guard and have a higher rank

I’d assume your first guess is right. Command positions exist for a reason, and sergeants outrank anyone not a captain*.

Now, marines are not stupid. If there is a situation where there is a regular sarge, and a normal (non-sarge) vet, I’d be willing to bet the sarge would take advice offered by the vet. But the command is still with the sarge.

* Just talking about guys in the company formations here. I think most of the specialists would fall between captains and sergeants. I suspect that it would work something like CM - Captain - Chaplain - Librarian - Vet sarge - Sarge - Vet - Marine - Scout. It might be however that the “line” ranks trump the “staff” ones.

A lot of the guys of the same rank would probably defer based on seniority a/o ability. Which may or may not have anything to do with company/veteran status.

What if the Veteran Sergeant is also a Scout?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
What if the Veteran Sergeant is also a Scout?

Sargent are the same rank wise, or authority wise across all companies

IE a scount Sgt = battle company Sgt, same with vet sgt

There is a lot of fluidity in the ranking structure of the space marines. Many times a battle brother will take a demotion in order to later gain a promotion. I.E. going from a command squad or honor guard to becoming the sergeant the first company, which lowers his "rank", but puts him as next in line for position of captain. Or going from captain of one of the lower ranked companies (6th through 10th) to becoming a "lowly" battle brother of the first company. As you said, veteran is just a status thing, denoted by terminator honors or whatever that particular chapter decides to use. even a veteran battle brother in the 1st company who has served as a sergeant or even captain in the past will defer rank to a 7th or 10th company sergeant even if he has only been a sergeant for decades rather than centuries. Remember that in the 40k universe, space marines live for a very, very long time. So under most normal circumstances any sergeant is going to have been in battle for decades before he is promoted to sergeant. Even a green space marine sergeant has probably seen more battle and had more experience commanding in his squad than most Imperial guardsman generals.

Also I don't know if it matters or not, but in your diagram you are omitting the upper ranks of the librarians and chaplains. They would all fall somewhere between the chaptermaster and any captain, for situations outside of combat. However during combat, the captain would be in command even though he is technically a lower "rank" than a librarian or chaplain.

The omission of Librarians, Chaplains, Apothecaries, Comany Champions, Techmarines etc. was on purpose... for simplicity's sake... I am most interested in the interactions between veteran sarge, sarge and vet.

I guess being a force built on brotherhood, honour and respecto of tradition and the elder's it is not usual for a sarge to have to pull rank, a sarge will defer or at least listen to a veteran's suggestions. I also believe the fact that space marines act pretty much on a squad level allows for a more fluid chain of command too. Are these assumptions correct?

Thanks again for all of your answers

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
What if the Veteran Sergeant is also a Scout?

Sargent are the same rank wise, or authority wise across all companies

IE a scount Sgt = battle company Sgt, same with vet sgt

Scout Sergeants have a lot less experience than a Battle Company Sergeant. They are technically still Neophytes.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
What if the Veteran Sergeant is also a Scout?

Sargent are the same rank wise, or authority wise across all companies

IE a scount Sgt = battle company Sgt, same with vet sgt

Scout Sergeants have a lot less experience than a Battle Company Sergeant. They are technically still Neophytes.

That’s not my understanding. IIRC they are full brothers, just working with the 10th to teach the recruits.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
What if the Veteran Sergeant is also a Scout?

Sargent are the same rank wise, or authority wise across all companies

IE a scount Sgt = battle company Sgt, same with vet sgt

Scout Sergeants have a lot less experience than a Battle Company Sergeant. They are technically still Neophytes.

I would argue against that

Scout sgt Telion directly comes to bind, Scout Sargent cyrus directly come to mind, Telion remains in the 10th to keep training.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
What if the Veteran Sergeant is also a Scout?

Sargent are the same rank wise, or authority wise across all companies

IE a scount Sgt = battle company Sgt, same with vet sgt

Scout Sergeants have a lot less experience than a Battle Company Sergeant. They are technically still Neophytes.

Never seen that suggested in any modern lore. If anything Scout Sergeants are usually described as some of the most experienced because their job is so important.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
What if the Veteran Sergeant is also a Scout?

Sargent are the same rank wise, or authority wise across all companies

IE a scount Sgt = battle company Sgt, same with vet sgt

Scout Sergeants have a lot less experience than a Battle Company Sergeant. They are technically still Neophytes.

Never seen that suggested in any modern lore. If anything Scout Sergeants are usually described as some of the most experienced because their job is so important.

This, if anything i would even suggest they are more skilled then battle company Sgt's simply because they need to train the new guys.

Its one thing to know a subject, its an entirely different thing to teach it.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
What if the Veteran Sergeant is also a Scout?

Sargent are the same rank wise, or authority wise across all companies

IE a scount Sgt = battle company Sgt, same with vet sgt

Scout Sergeants have a lot less experience than a Battle Company Sergeant. They are technically still Neophytes.

That is so wrong, they are being trusted with one of the most important chapter resources the scouts. The scouts are the future of the chapter, they wouldn't be trusted to some new sgt. Some of the most trusted Sargent's in the chapter would be leading the neophytes into battle for their first time.

Exactly so. Scout sergeants are invariably very experienced veterans.

Chapter Master outranks First Captain outranks Captain outranks Sergeant outranks Battle-brother.

There is no 'formal' chain of command other than this, but any officer can delegate command of any part of his force to anyone below him.

It is, for example, not unusual for a sergeant to select a nominated veteran battle-brother, who is the commander of the 'other' combat squad. Such an individual has no specific authority himself, but the sarge said he's in charge, so he is.

Equally, a librarian can't specifically take command of part of a battle company. If the Chapter Master says "Epistolary XYZ, take command of this strike force", then turns to his third captain and says "I'm giving him a tactical detachment from your company" he's in command of those squads.

I think of the chain of command as something like this:
-Chapter Master
-1st Company Captain
-Every other captain
-Veterans (of any kind, incl. vet sarge)
-Regular sergeant (across all companies)
-Battle bros (regular guys and scouts)

That's how I see it. Of course, other chapters might work a little differently, especially DA and SW.

P.s: I probably incorrect with this, but it just makes more sense to me this way.

one thing to keep in mind is the chain of command isn't nesscarily a straight line. a sergent of the 3rd company is rarely going to be in a POSITION to order around someone from the 2nd company. and in the times he is I imagine there are some pretty clear set ups there.

that said remember space marines are warrior monks, a brotherhood. "pulling rank" generally isn't something thats done. I suspect in cases where there's any kind of question, they just naturally fall into following the smartest most experianced brother.

one thing to keep in mind is the chain of command isn't nesscarily a straight line. a sergent of the 3rd company is rarely going to be in a POSITION to order around someone from the 2nd company. and in the times he is I imagine there are some pretty clear set ups there.

Indeed. Which is another reason Veterans don't order Sergeants around; in addition to being outranked, a force deployed by a space marine chapter is generally drawn from a battle company - either the full company, a demi-company or a strike force element like a skyhammer - with 'bolt-ons' from the veteran, reserve and scout companies.

The 'core force' is the battle company elements, so command starts with the Captain (or his delegate - a chaplain, librarian, first sergeant, whatever) and passes down the line from there. An attached veteran squad, no matter their battle experience, are attached support troops outside that line of succession unless the captain has specifically said "if I get horribly mutilated by a genestealer, that dude over there is in charge".

I'd put it as:
• Chapter Master
• 1st Captain
• 2nd - 5th and 10th Company Captains
• 6th - 9th Company Captains
• Veteran Sergeant
• Sergeant
• 1st company Veteran
• Line company Veteran
• Battle brother
• Scout

Experience counts too. If you have a veteran who has alot of say ice world combat experience, a Sgt who has less, the Sgt would be wise to use the skills the veteran has.

Experience. Vs the enemy and terrain. Depending on a fluid mix whoever is best experienced may find themselves a temporary figure of authority.

You're also missing out Force Commander, who would outrank everyone in a specific force. Somewhere between the captain 's and the vet sarges. Also missing out the members of the Librarium and Chaplaincy.

The fluff has always been curiously quiet about "lieutenants" or other junior officers between Squad leaders and company commanders. I'm guessing it's to keep charts clean, and also to keep the Century --> Legion analogy alive.

As is pretty common when you get into the nitty gritty, the fluff is inconsistent if not out right contradictory about some of the details of how a chapter is organized. The biggest question is if there is a difference between regular squad sergeants and veteran sergeants. There used to be such a difference in game terms, and the old fluff usually limited each company to a handful of Veteran Sergeants, meaning squad leaders that were also members of the veteran company.

The Lbirarians, Techmarines, and Chaplains lead strike forces pretty rarely, and usually when a fairly high ranking specialist is present with no captain. Chaplains are more likely to be battle leaders, as don't forget that even Space Marines are uncomfortable with the Librarians.

Generally, the way I see most chains of command are: Chapter Master -> Captains (with 1st captain the senior) -> Mission Leader (either auxiliary officer or senior sergeant appointed to leave a mission) -> Senior Sergeants -> Squad Sergeants -> Battle Brothers.

The way I see, Veteran status is based purely on combat prowess, while Sergeants are appointed based primarily on leadership. When combined, you have Veteran Sergeants, but even the most grizzled Veteran would follow the lead of a Sergeant.

Given that the Marines Errant are led by Lieutenant Commander Anton Narvaez, it must happen. That is a rank equivalent to a major. I assume he has not been promoted to full chapter master due to concerns about his inexperience and the fact the Marines Errant are well below strength.

In my own personal head fluff, chapter master and captain are compulsory codex ranks. Majors at chapter level and lieutenant at company level are optional codex ranks. Different chapters may or may not have them, and it probably changes over time. Of course, that is only head fluff, but it doesn't violate stuff closer to canon, and canon doesn't exist anyway.

Well, common sense that an elite military organization would have a chain of command that goes beyond base 10. In reality, you need somebody that can take over if a captain or Chapter master is lost.

I think one poster pointed out that there is probably a deface pecking order, with the 1st Company Captain probably servicing as the chapter's overall #2, and in charge of any task force the Master isn't with. The nature of the reserve companies is such that they are rarely deployed en masse, so I'm guessing they serve either as the #2 in a major deployment, or entrusted with a smaller scale independent command.

Realistically, chapters are unlikely to have more than four company sized commitments at once. Having four battle companies, and four reserve companies means that you likely have larger than company sized affairs, with the battle companies reinforced by Veterans, Scouts, and reserve units. The specialization of the reserve companies means they're likely not going to be deployed on their own, but giving a reserve Captain some of his own men, and then units from the other companies would allow a captain to gain experience leading independent operations.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, keep in mind the rationale for having layers of officers. In real life, military units are organized around relatively small numbers of men. The "monkey-sphere" theory holds that the human brain can only handle 150 or fewer relationships at once, at least at any real detail. Keeping companies (a building block of militaries even during times of mass linear combat) under that size allowed everybody to know everybody, and have a good idea of strengths, weaknesses, and the complicated relationships between everybody.

Space Marines are going to be a little different. First, they live longer, and have more time to get to know people. Second, they are more homogenous. They're all drawn from a similar culture, and then trained (brainwashed) into a new one, with their own genetic structure flattened by a common gene seed. A space marine captain would likely have a good relationship with all other officers and sergeants in the chapter along with the brothers of his own company, but also a pretty decent one with all brothers. Nobody is really a stranger. So you can place a reserve company captain in charge of a mixed task force without as large a loss in efficiency as you'd experience in real life.

I'd imagine that chapters that fought a lot of smaller actions would have more middling officers, while those that fought mostly as multiple company formations would use fewer.

 Fifty wrote:
Given that the Marines Errant are led by Lieutenant Commander Anton Narvaez, it must happen. That is a rank equivalent to a major. I assume he has not been promoted to full chapter master due to concerns about his inexperience and the fact the Marines Errant are well below strength.

In my own personal head fluff, chapter master and captain are compulsory codex ranks. Majors at chapter level and lieutenant at company level are optional codex ranks. Different chapters may or may not have them, and it probably changes over time. Of course, that is only head fluff, but it doesn't violate stuff closer to canon, and canon doesn't exist anyway.

doesn't really mean anything though as it's a well known fact that chapters sometimes use differant names for their ranks.

 Polonius wrote:
The fluff has always been curiously quiet about "lieutenants" or other junior officers between Squad leaders and company commanders. I'm guessing it's to keep charts clean, and also to keep the Century --> Legion analogy alive.

It was a statline thing. 1st edition had a trio of standard templates to apply to the base race statline: Champion, Minor Hero, Major Hero. The 1st edition marine army list had rank independent of statline, so you could have a junior Captain statted as a Minor Hero being ably led by his more experienced Lieutenant statted as a Major Hero. When 2nd edition rolled around they decided to tie rank to statline but there weren't enough statlines to go round so Veteran Sergeants were Champions, Captains were Minor Heros and Commanders Major Heros whilst Lieutenants and Lieutenant Commander were dropped. (The latter - when it existed - being the rank held by the commander of the 1st company, so named because he was the second in command to the Chapter Master who held the Adeptus Terra rank of Imperial Commander)

Experience counts too. If you have a veteran who has alot of say ice world combat experience, a Sgt who has less, the Sgt would be wise to use the skills the veteran has.

Agreed. But the sergeant would still command. One of the most important skills a junior officer can learn is how to take advantage of the fact he has a more experienced subordinate without basically surrendering his authority; it's a classic trope for navy midshipmen, army 2nd lieutenants and so on in books, films - and real life...

Space Marines are going to be a little different. First, they live longer, and have more time to get to know people. Second, they are more homogenous. They're all drawn from a similar culture, and then trained (brainwashed) into a new one, with their own genetic structure flattened by a common gene seed. A space marine captain would likely have a good relationship with all other officers and sergeants in the chapter along with the brothers of his own company, but also a pretty decent one with all brothers. Nobody is really a stranger. So you can place a reserve company captain in charge of a mixed task force without as large a loss in efficiency as you'd experience in real life.

Very much so. You can't have 1,000 close friends, but I think that since astartes can serve for hundreds of years, have heightened memory, and 'brotherhood' is a core value, I suspect it'd be unusual if a full battle-brother couldn't identify every other member of the chapter at least by sight and rank.

Not to mention that power armour - at least astartes power armour - is significantly more than just a can. It's an established fact in several books that an apothecary can monitor the vital signs of his patient via armour-to-armour link, even having the armour's musculature accept reprogramming to 'self-splint' a shattered limb (purging of Kadillus) and it's been mentioned in multiple books that a captain or sergeant has got a hugely efficient feed of the position and status of his troops - essentially power armour acts as a quite competent Command & control staff for the guy wearing it.

Follow the numbers

1. Chapter Master
Undisputed master of the chapter. Nuff Said.

2. First Captain. In most cases they are given the title of Regent, are the nominal successor to the CM, so stands to reason they are 2IC.

2 (also). Master of the Forge, Chief Librarian, Head Apothecary, Master of Sanctity

These positions would all have dominion and full command (subect to CM) over their respective detachments so would in theory would be equals to the First Captain.


2. Honour Guard

These guys have more honours and experience than 99% of Marines, and the Chapter Master values their council. They don't overrule Captains but if they say something you best listen. Dreadnoughts would also be in a similar position depending on age.


3. Other Captains

They would also be technically equal to the specialists heads of command as they all have a place on the Chapter Council but would be under the First Captain

3.5. Specialist officers

Librarians, Chaplains, Techmarines, Apothecaries. Officers in technicality they rank above Vet Sgt (NCO) but depends on the rank again. An Epistolary may be more than capable of leading a company or strike force where a Techmarine or Codicer would differ to a Veteran Sergeant of the First Company accompanying the detachment. A grey area.

4. Veteran Sergeants

These are sergeants who have served in the First Company or in another company for a long enough time to be recognised as a higher rank and are typically successors to their captain.


5. Squad Sergeants

Marines who have been promoted from within their own squad as their new Sergeant following the previous one moving on in some capacity including death.


6. Company veterans
Those members of the Company Command Squad and specifically Company Veterans in the DA, members of the company with particular distinction and experience. Wouldn't be able to officially overrule a Sergeant but an inexperienced Sergeant would probably take their advice.


7. Experienced battle brothers and 2ICs

Those with more experience in the field would rank above newly promoted ones, and those named as ad-hoc Corporals in case of death of Sergeant would rank above. Likely it would also follow by notion that Tacticals rank above Assault and Devastator unless those Assaults or Devs have a particularly longer career than the Tactical.

8. Scouts rank at the bottom and have no operational command except when on their own with no other leader in sight.

9. Aspirants and serfs


10. Servitors and other menials, including NCOs of the Imperial Guard and other forces, unless a particularly high rank such as a SoB "Captain" equivilent who would rank above the likes of Sergeant but would likely differ to any other Space Marine in the vicinity except a scout or new battle brother.

locarno24 wrote:

Experience counts too. If you have a veteran who has alot of say ice world combat experience, a Sgt who has less, the Sgt would be wise to use the skills the veteran has.

Agreed. But the sergeant would still command. One of the most important skills a junior officer can learn is how to take advantage of the fact he has a more experienced subordinate without basically surrendering his authority; it's a classic trope for navy midshipmen, army 2nd lieutenants and so on in books, films - and real life...

As they say, there's nothing more dangerous than a fresh 2nd Lt with a map and compass. :-)

As for the marines they're IMO more like SpecOps than regular army. People have ranks because ranks are required, but it's much looser than in a normal regiment. Before battle they probably try to get input from everyone with applicable experience. Can the TechMarine get range for their artillery, can the Librarian handle enemy sorcerers, does some Veteran Brother have experience fighting these opponents? In battle they'll normally follow the orders of their commander, but being flexible a veteran or sarge might see something worth exploiting and call it in to the commander who then has to approve the action and change his plan if it looks like a good idea.

Spetulhu wrote:

locarno24 wrote:

Experience counts too. If you have a veteran who has alot of say ice world combat experience, a Sgt who has less, the Sgt would be wise to use the skills the veteran has.

Agreed. But the sergeant would still command. One of the most important skills a junior officer can learn is how to take advantage of the fact he has a more experienced subordinate without basically surrendering his authority; it's a classic trope for navy midshipmen, army 2nd lieutenants and so on in books, films - and real life...

As they say, there's nothing more dangerous than a fresh 2nd Lt with a map and compass. :-)

As for the marines they're IMO more like SpecOps than regular army. People have ranks because ranks are required, but it's much looser than in a normal regiment. Before battle they probably try to get input from everyone with applicable experience. Can the TechMarine get range for their artillery, can the Librarian handle enemy sorcerers, does some Veteran Brother have experience fighting these opponents? In battle they'll normally follow the orders of their commander, but being flexible a veteran or sarge might see something worth exploiting and call it in to the commander who then has to approve the action and change his plan if it looks like a good idea.

Or the Captain might have a plan of action but a sudden new development means the lower rank doesn't have time to ask permission and must act and suffer the consequences. Or the Captain might be making a fatal mistake and prompt disobediance