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 oldzoggy wrote:

Spoiler:

Here are some examples that would be perfectly fine examples of a professional store manager in my opinion while they can still can be quite negatively about GW or their product.

1)
Customer: Can I buy A.

Store: I would love to sell it to you but the supplier does no longer allow me to sell A.

2)
Customer: Can I order B

Store: Yes you can but there is a high risk of the supplier not shipping it in time. They tend to do that the last few months / years.


3)
Customer: Whut you still have a stock of C the supplier claimed it was sold out in minutes.

Store: Well It doesn't sell that good at all, most other local stores also have a huge stock off it. I have no idea why hey claimed it was such a success really.

4)Customer: I would like to buy D

Store: You could buy that, I am obligated to sell it in the store by the supplier. But I also sell X that is a better product really [insert reasons why here], why not give it a try.

I'd steer clear of sales based jobs if I were you.

 Easy E wrote:
Price Matching is all about creating the IMAGE that you have the lowest price, not that you actually do have the lowest price. It is a marketing ploy, especially if your entire "strategy" is based on low prices.

Protip: Do not make your strategy about lowest price. There is always someone willing to sell it for less.

Price matching is pretty predominant and works if you're a white goods store, or some other place selling mostly big ticket items. On something the scale of model kits, it doesn't seem a sensible expectation.

Someone upthread mentioned the FLGS also being more of a social location and hangout place than a usual store, and that can be part of the problem, if the ones running it stay in the mindset of they're amongst like-minded friends, and not customers as well.

 JamesY wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Gw abused flgs across the world I know several that are done with gw held a sale and have since broken all content.

One guy was so angry he nearly punched out the sales rep when he came around the next time.

Also know an arts supply store owner that used to sell some gw stuff and dumped it due to their business practices, he can rant for hours.

You reap what you sow.

That really isn't relevant, customers don't need to hear about a manager's problems with suppliers anymore than they need to hear about the fallout they had with their missus before coming to work. Offering an alternative if the first choice isn't available is best practice, pointing them in the right direction to a more suitable store if nothing you have is suitable comes next. Moaning should never happen.

It is entirely relevant - the game store owner has reason to kvetch about GW.

He is not kvetching despite them treating him well, he is kvetching because they are treating him poorly.

One might even say that GW is acting... unprofessionally. Treating the retailers that carry your products as competitors is not professional.

If I were a game store owner, I would have nothing to do with them.

The Auld Grump

It is irrelevant to the customer. Customers don't need to hear about gripes the manager is having with a supplier. If the customer asks about it and is interested, then fine, share the difficulties that the supplier is creating. There's absolutely no reason to divulge that information though just because you have been asked for a product, that isn't professionalism.

It IS relevant to the customer. Letting the customer know about how GW treats small businesses is an important sales tactic, especially in areas where small businesses are a valued community asset. I know no less than 4 stores within 50 miles of me that have lost big money as a direct result of GWs policies. I play 40k not because I like GW and want to support them (I've only bought 3 boxes of models NIB, the rest I have bought from other players), but because it is simply the most successful wargame (and I want a "safe" investment in my hobby) in my area. If WMH picks up here, I will fore sure switch BECAUSE of how GW treats their retail partners. THAT IS relevant, and many small business enthusiasts would be happy to know about it.

Also- I think a former GW employee might have a slight bias against the "unprofessional" FLGS, eh?...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Amendment:
The guy was a bad salesperson, and should have qualified/steered the customer first. I am not making a claim that he did "the right" thing, only that the information he provided is relevant to a good majority of customers.

JuicyPVP wrote:


It IS relevant to the customer. Letting the customer know about how GW treats small businesses is an important sales tactic

So, it's relevant to the store, but not the customer. The customer does not need to hear about problems with a supplier to be sold an alternative.

The words could simply be "I don't have X, but would you like to take a look at Y? They're very similar in design [or something like this]."

The customer doesn't "need" to hear anything, but it's as relevant as any other tangentially related thing a retailer might want to say to build a rapport.

If your goal is to steer people away from product X then letting people know the company or supplier of product X is terrible isn't the worst tactic in the world, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing the customer's interest or not letting the customer know about possible competing products.

I think hobbyists are probably more likely to be interested in such things anyway, it'd be less appropriate for someone working in a large chain store to speak of such things (but then the guys on the floor probably don't communicate with suppliers anyway).

We are talking about professionalism here. It is through that lense that I have been contributing to the discussion. Your goal as a retailer is to feed the till, that's it. I know very well that there are several ways to achieve this goal. There are many ways that work that might not be professional, and I'm not trying to say that they can't. However, you shouldn't be trying to "steer" customers too heavily. If you do, you may well make a sale, but you are unlikely to get repeat custom. Hobby stores need repeat custom to make a profit. It is too niche to exist on one off sales. Professionalism is the best way to ensure that a customer returns. On a first encounter, knowing nothing about a customer, you get as much information about what they are doing, what they want to do next, and what they'll need to do it as you can, and then show them what you have to meet those needs. If a salesmen started slating gw to me based off my request for their products, without finding out anything about my hobby first, they'd have absolutely no chance of a sale. They would have no idea how long I'd been in the hobby, what my hobby even is, why I was asking for the specific brand etc, and so would have no basis on which to sell me anything.

I have sold toy soldiers, I have sold £1000+ suits. The basics are the same, you ask questions, listen to the answers, and go from there as appropriate. If you can't sell your products from that alone, you can't sell. Slating anyone in some kind of back slapping conspiratorial way to try and sell something else is, to me, a desperate tactic, and a transparent one at that which only demonstrates a lack of confidence in the products they do sell.

 JamesY wrote:
We are talking about professionalism here. It is through that lense that I have been contributing to the discussion. Your goal as a retailer is to feed the till, that's it. I know very well that there are several ways to achieve this goal. There are many ways that work that might not be professional, and I'm not trying to say that they can't. However, you shouldn't be trying to "steer" customers too heavily. If you do, you may well make a sale, but you are unlikely to get repeat custom. Hobby stores need repeat custom to make a profit. It is too niche to exist on one off sales. Professionalism is the best way to ensure that a customer returns. On a first encounter, knowing nothing about a customer, you get as much information about what they are doing, what they want to do next, and what they'll need to do it as you can, and then show them what you have to meet those needs. If a salesmen started slating gw to me based off my request for their products, without finding out anything about my hobby first, they'd have absolutely no chance of a sale. They would have no idea how long I'd been in the hobby, what my hobby even is, why I was asking for the specific brand etc, and so would have no basis on which to sell me anything.

I have sold toy soldiers, I have sold £1000+ suits. The basics are the same, you ask questions, listen to the answers, and go from there as appropriate. If you can't sell your products from that alone, you can't sell. Slating anyone in some kind of back slapping conspiratorial way to try and sell something else is, to me, a desperate tactic, and a transparent one at that which only demonstrates a lack of confidence in the products they do sell.

Exalted.

The key is asking questions, listening to the answer, and then knowing what products fit those needs. That is a professional.

Maybe I'm biased by the fact I find 99% of salespeople an annoyance and a hindrance. Complaining about your suppliers ranks low (or even positive depending on the circumstances). The things I value in a salesperson are knowledge (rare) and honesty. If you can convey that everything else sinks in to being near meaningless.

 JamesY wrote:
We are talking about professionalism here. It is through that lense that I have been contributing to the discussion. Your goal as a retailer is to feed the till, that's it. I know very well that there are several ways to achieve this goal. There are many ways that work that might not be professional, and I'm not trying to say that they can't. However, you shouldn't be trying to "steer" customers too heavily. If you do, you may well make a sale, but you are unlikely to get repeat custom. Hobby stores need repeat custom to make a profit. It is too niche to exist on one off sales. Professionalism is the best way to ensure that a customer returns.

Too true.

Exalted post.

CB

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Maybe I'm biased by the fact I find 99% of salespeople an annoyance and a hindrance. Complaining about your suppliers ranks low (or even positive depending on the circumstances). The things I value in a salesperson are knowledge (rare) and honesty. If you can convey that everything else sinks in to being near meaningless.

I do get where you are coming from, and I completely respect that you, and many others, are more than happy to have that conversation. My point is that if one customer is, and another isn't, as you don't know on the first visit, caution on loosing custom should prevail. As I've said before, having that conversation with an established customer is one thing. Not worth loosing a potential customer by being too forward though.

 JamesY wrote:

JuicyPVP wrote:


It IS relevant to the customer. Letting the customer know about how GW treats small businesses is an important sales tactic

So, it's relevant to the store, but not the customer. The customer does not need to hear about problems with a supplier to be sold an alternative.

I am a customer.

And it is relevant to me.

You can say, with accuracy, that it may not be relevant to all or possibly even most customers - but as a blanket statement, it is wrong.

As for professionalism, where would you say management discussing selling off the lease to a GW store less than three months after it opened falls? While there are customers in the store?

The Auld Grump - who was one of those customers. (And has the bottle of liquid green stuff to show for it.)

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

JuicyPVP wrote:


It IS relevant to the customer. Letting the customer know about how GW treats small businesses is an important sales tactic

So, it's relevant to the store, but not the customer. The customer does not need to hear about problems with a supplier to be sold an alternative.

I am a customer.

And it is relevant to me.

You can say, with accuracy, that it may not be relevant to all or possibly even most customers - but as a blanket statement, it is wrong.

As for professionalism, where would you say management discussing selling off the lease to a GW store less than three months after it opened falls? While there are customers in the store?


The Auld Grump - who was one of those customers. (And has the bottle of liquid green stuff to show for it.)

It isn't relevant in an opening conversation with a new customer, which is what the topic has been about in essence. Whatever individuals might prefer isn't the same as what is professional conduct. It didn't get the op purchasing anything in the store, they lost a potential customer. I can't imagine such cheap honesty would engage many new customers either. Professionalism is similar to manners, it's about making sure everyone you talk to feels comfortable in the conversation, not just hoping that the person you are talking to enjoys and is entertained by your negativity towards the brand they came in to buy.

Any discussion on the shop floor of that nature, positive or negative, I would consider unprofessional.

Again, that you enjoy that kind of dialogue is great for you personally, but that doesn't make it appropriate to use with every new face that walks into a store for the first time.

Edit also, I think there is an important distinction between what information is relevant, and what information is interesting. You might be interested in the details behind the options available in a particular shop, or not. All that is relevant is whether what you asked for is available or not.

 JamesY wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

JuicyPVP wrote:


It IS relevant to the customer. Letting the customer know about how GW treats small businesses is an important sales tactic

So, it's relevant to the store, but not the customer. The customer does not need to hear about problems with a supplier to be sold an alternative.

I am a customer.

And it is relevant to me.

You can say, with accuracy, that it may not be relevant to all or possibly even most customers - but as a blanket statement, it is wrong.

As for professionalism, where would you say management discussing selling off the lease to a GW store less than three months after it opened falls? While there are customers in the store?


The Auld Grump - who was one of those customers. (And has the bottle of liquid green stuff to show for it.)

It isn't relevant in an opening conversation with a new customer, which is what the topic has been about in essence. Whatever individuals might prefer isn't the same as what is professional conduct. It didn't get the op purchasing anything in the store, they lost a potential customer. I can't imagine such cheap honesty would engage many new customers either. Professionalism is similar to manners, it's about making sure everyone you talk to feels comfortable in the conversation, not just hoping that the person you are talking to enjoys and is entertained by your negativity towards the brand they came in to buy.

Any discussion on the shop floor of that nature, positive or negative, I would consider unprofessional.

Again, that you enjoy that kind of dialogue is great for you personally, but that doesn't make it appropriate to use with every new face that walks into a store for the first time.

Edit also, I think there is an important distinction between what information is relevant, and what information is interesting. You might be interested in the details behind the options available in a particular shop, or not. All that is relevant is whether what you asked for is available or not.

It is relevant. I kind of want to know why a given store does not carry a given company's product.

Sometimes it will be a reason that I agree with - 'GW are jerks. They treat their supporting retailers like dirt and dictate unacceptable terms.'

Other times it will be a reason that I disagree with - 'Reaper supports Kickstarters, so I don't carry them.'

Knowing why is entirely relevant.

In the case of the discussion on whether to close up a Warhammer store - it was between the store manager (and only employee) and a higher up at GW.

Not a conversation between manager and customer - but store manager and his immediate superior in the chain.

The store had not done nearly as well as they had hoped in the first month of operations, and they were already talking of selling off the lease.

They made no effort to hide the conversation - one would think that they would, at the least, have hung a sign on the window 'Closed for 1 Hour, Come Back Then! ' or the like.

They were also not talking about letting the manager go for not hitting the numbers, instead they were talking about giving up on the store entirely.

The store manager was, unsurprisingly, arguing against closing the shop so soon after the opening.

For what it is worth, the store is still there, some three months later, so they have not sold the lease yet - whether because they decided against it, or could not find a buyer for the lease. (There are other empty shops in the plaza, so it could be either.)

It is in an expensive area - right across from the largest mall in town.

They could have found a less expensive storefront, and a larger space. Instead they have a tiny space in a high traffic area.

The Auld Grump - I find GW having that discussion in a store while it was open to be less professional that a store manager saying why he is not willing to deal with a company.

*EDIT* In support of your argument, the most professional, and most successful store in the greater area does not have such discussions with their customers, unless the customer initiates it. (And even then they try to keep it short.) On the other hand, they also went so far as to promote the Reaper Bones Kickstarter.

A store local to me is winding down. For the last few years the owner has only been present for a few hours in the morning and then all the busy times have been with a string of inconsistent part time employees. And if an employee couldn't make it instead of showing up, the store would just close and people showing up for a scheduled games night would arrived to a locked door.

I'd take "unprofessional" over absentee in a heart beat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, now that I think about it, I think it's possible the employees might have been just taking off and seeing just how much they could get payed for without the owner learning the store was locked up. I wonder if he knew his store was even closer early.

@theauldgrump I think you nailed it with your last comment, if the customer initiates the dialogue, it's an entirely different matter, as they are controlling the direction of the conversation. Answering questions (and like you said, being honest without giving too much away) is very different to ranting about the problems you have had on being asked for a brand.

GW is a niche market. If there's no niche, no market. If the LGS discredits the company good luck establishing a market.

I have one local store that hates on GW. My home store is pretty good, but sells at hard MSRP. O well.

 JamesY wrote:
We are talking about professionalism here.

It pretty much come down to this. Whether the rant was about GW or the price of tea in China is not really relevant, the issue was that the guy went off on a rant that the customer did not want to be involved in, and that's simply unprofessional.

 Bookwrack wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
We are talking about professionalism here.

It pretty much come down to this. Whether the rant was about GW or the price of tea in China is not really relevant, the issue was that the guy went off on a rant that the customer did not want to be involved in, and that's simply unprofessional.

And we are all human and make mistakes. Heaven forbid you ever make a mistake. Wouldn't you like to be a le to have redemption?

Davor wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
We are talking about professionalism here.

It pretty much come down to this. Whether the rant was about GW or the price of tea in China is not really relevant, the issue was that the guy went off on a rant that the customer did not want to be involved in, and that's simply unprofessional.

And we are all human and make mistakes. Heaven forbid you ever make a mistake. Wouldn't you like to be a le to have redemption?

You keep saying that Davour, but you are missing the point that, when you act professionally, you don't make mistakes of that kind. Yes we all make mistakes, but I'd be far more interested in whether the seller had learned from their mistake. No one is condemning him to hell for his error, just sympathizing with the op on a negative experience.

A new person walks into a store, asks specifically for a brand that the store doesn't carry.

Option #1: Act like a retail slave and try to sell the person something they didn't ask for.
Option #2: Address the "not (yet) a customer" like a person and tell them why they don't carry that brand.

I think there's just a fundamental disagreement concerning the role of the parties here.

Especially when the phrase is "friendly local game store", not "professional games supply sales point".

 solkan wrote:
A new person walks into a store, asks specifically for a brand that the store doesn't carry.

Option #1: Act like a retail slave and try to sell the person something they didn't ask for.
Option #2: Address the "not (yet) a customer" like a person and tell them why they don't carry that brand.

I think there's just a fundamental disagreement concerning the role of the parties here.

Especially when the phrase is "friendly local game store", not "professional games supply sales point".

Where is the friendliness in slating a company that some one enjoys the products of? There are many more options available than the two you have suggested. You can be friendly and professional at the same time. The guy in the op was neither.

Having spent many years in retail. There is a fine line between being helpful and professional in a bad situation, and being an arse.

Not everyone is cut out for serving people. It can be a literally hell, and I proudly say that retail turned me into the hateful nihilist that I am today. Mostly because people can be hell to work with, and plenty of customers believe that we operate on a bartering system and the price on the item is only a recommendation.

The retailer in the OP descended into Arse territory pretty quickly. He could have said many other things, but bitching to customers is never a good idea. Independant shops can't last that long if the person behind a till leaves a bad taste in their mouth. Because they will remember, and they will tell their friends, who also play, who will probably tell their friends too.

JamesY wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Bookwrack wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
We are talking about professionalism here.

It pretty much come down to this. Whether the rant was about GW or the price of tea in China is not really relevant, the issue was that the guy went off on a rant that the customer did not want to be involved in, and that's simply unprofessional.

And we are all human and make mistakes. Heaven forbid you ever make a mistake. Wouldn't you like to be a le to have redemption?

You keep saying that Davour, but you are missing the point that, when you act professionally, you don't make mistakes of that kind. Yes we all make mistakes, but I'd be far more interested in whether the seller had learned from their mistake. No one is condemning him to hell for his error, just sympathizing with the op on a negative experience.

I do, I really do understand the point. The thing is, this has been going on for what 4 pages now, and it's like the person committed murder or something.

No, you're categorising something so elementary for a professional to remember as a "mistake" when, as I said, it's equivalent to not soiling yourself or stabbing yourself in the face with your own cutlery.

Forgetting to not moan at a new customer isn't a mistake, no matter how understandable the retailer's reasons for doing so, it is simply unprofessional. It requires the deliberate disregard of a simple and fundamental rule, and anything done deliberately cannot be framed as a mistake.

All this thread is really doing is confirming my view that retail (as opposed to sales) is seen as a 'menial' job that anyone can do - which is *technically* correct, I guess - like cleaning, waiting, etc.

In reality, to be good at it it actually requires a skillset not all possess.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
This isn't a GW bashing thread, don't make it one.

That's hardly GW bashing, amigo. GW has a track record of business practices that rub small business owners the wrong way. You can argue about whether the FLGS are justified, but it's not a smear to say it happens--it's a fact. Trying to offer a reasonable explanation for your experience doesn't seem off topic or out of line.
....
If the FLGS operator has a problem with a company, their service, or their product, I'd prefer they told me the truth. The FLGS should be a nexus for the community. If the operator there is just a shill trying to bilk me out of my money by foisting garbage off onto me, then they definitely don't deserve my business.

That's really not relevant at all, unless you're actually interested in the "GW is bad" conversation with the store operator and have engaged with him for that purpose. If a store owner or employee joins in on a thread on a forum, then it can be enlightening to get their perspective and experience in a thread. If you go there specifically looking for AoS or 40k, then there really is no reason to carry on about GW or any other company to a customer who has specifically gone in there to purchase something.

An interesting topic. I honestly don't think that was too far out of line.

That said, one could just say: "We had issues with GW in the past, so unfortuantly we do not carry this range. However, we do carry x, y, z would you like me to give you an overview/rundown of these systems?" If the customer then asks what kind of problems you can elaborate.

I prefer this approach to just trying to sell me stuff no matter what. To go on for minutes is maybe a bit much.

It is also true that working in retail or any customer facing role is (emotionally) demanding. One does need peoples skills and should a customer be difficult deescalation techniques and the right combination of being understanding, but also not taking it personal is not easy to achieve.

Working in such a role made me aware of this and i adjusted my interactions with retail staff etc. accordingly and I am now trying to always be positive and calm should there be a problem,a fter all it is not the person I talk to that is at fault, rather the company they work for.

hobojebus wrote:
Pfft you've clearly never worked in retail, dealing with people every day soon makes you hate your customers especially during sales and holidays.

Not sure where you are located but I generally find independent game stores in the US are a bit different. Generally, store owners are Hobbyists that decide it would be fun to own a game store. Staff tend to be gamers who are working the shop part time to support their addiction hobby. This means I generally find the people in independent stores know more about the games and the hobby than they do about retail or customer service. That's generally where I encounter problems with the FLGS. I'll spend 20 minutes talking to a staff member about some new release, ask them to order me one, and then when I go into the store a week or two later find out they never put the order in. Or they put my order out on the shelf and someone else bought it. Or they don't know how to operate the store's inventory and ordering system and got me the wrong thing. Or they mismanaged the store finances so badly that the had to close up while I was waiting for my order.

hobojebus wrote:
Pfft you've clearly never worked in retail, dealing with people every day soon makes you hate your customers especially during sales and holidays.

People talk down to you just because your behind a till, lie to your face and in general act like aholes you can't work retail any amount of time in a shop without losing your humanity or your mind.

So yes you may get professional service but it's not from humans just soulless husks dead inside and filled with hate for the living.

And when you get home and your stuffs broken or damaged we did that and laughed about it.

Yours
Every retail worker ever.

Well, you're not wrong, the trick to working retail well is to keep in mind not to apply that deep hatred towards new customers and again to push it aside when dealing with the few... fun... customers. Save it for venting with co-workers afterwards when there's no customers around, every bad customer truly just becomes another fun story for retail workers to share amongst themselves. If more people realised that then maybe retail would be a better thing to work in. I wouldn't go as far as to make their shopping experience worse, no need to be a jerk back to someone being a jerk back to you cause that would only lead to more frustration making them be an even bigger jerk to someone else. Also in most cases if they're the loud annoying to deal with kind, if they got home and found their stuff broken even if it wasn't the fault of anyone at the store, they would come back and make a fuss about it.

It's not hard to keep your kindness, mean all retail does is help you realise that a vast majority of people are not so great thinkers, they act fast and let their brain catch up which is fairly normal for everyone when you don't have to focus on stuff like an exam or researching whatever. You're not thinking, rather just doing. Like just the other day I had to deal with one trying to convince me that the bottle of 180 vitamin pills they wanted only contained 60. The bottle says there's 180 in it; the bottle is the same size as another vitamin the same company makes but only holds 60 in them. Obviously the pills are different sizes and neither of which are clear allowing you to see the contents, but it was enough to convince them that this bottle that I, the shelf and the label had said contains 180 only had 60 in it. Possibly they hadn't read it and assumed from the size of the bottles, need to take that extra care to not make them feel like an idiot or talk down to anyone. Retail just needs patience really and honestly I can see a lot of parallels between retail and child care work; just the scary thought that quite a few of these people bashing into things with shopping carts are actually allowed to drive a car.