Things my Ultramarine friend has claimed...

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**Selym**

I have a friend. He has played Ultramarines since 4th edition. He plays 40k regularly, and has fought against a wide variety of opponents. He rarely loses, and has a fairly large SM collection.

He's also a nutcase with no understanding of how 40k works.

Meet Dave. I'm calling him Dave so that if he comes across this thread, he won't have a fit. (He's not really called Dave)

Dave, in my numerous conversations with him, has made a large number of statements regarding what he feels is underpowered and overpowered in the current edition of 40k. Here, I shall detail just some of his claims. What will follow will be a unit or wargear name, followed by some points that he feels make it either overpowered or underpowered.

Overpowered:

Spoiler:

Underpowered:

Spoiler:

**pm713**

My heart is bleeding.

**Selym**

I have attempted to make Dave see reason, but any arguent I've tried has largely been discounted by him. Essentially, if it can reliably kill space marines it's op, but if it's in C:SM it's fine.
Unless it's CSM or IG, then it's OP by default.

**pm713**

There's someone like Dave at my store. I've given up. The one at my store was at a beginner game where you took two units. He thought that his list of 10 Wraithguard and 10 Scatbikes was fine. He attempted to add a Wraithknight because someone against him had a pair of Rhinos alongside their sternguard veterans.

**Verviedi**

So... Why did you post this here? This really seems like a personal problem for you to deal with together. Posting personal things like this on a public forum does not end well.

**AncientSkarbrand**

Dude thinks CSM are op? Jeeeeeeeezus.

A quick game with him using csm would very quickly revise his opinion. If it doesn't, he's completely hopeless and unreasonable and has no idea about what makes a unit good.

Seriously... tell him to write the cheesiest csm list he can come up with and then dust him with a completely average ultramarine list. If he doesn't get it there's no hope.

It's offensive to sensibilities that anyone could claim csm are in a good place right now, let alone OP!

**General Kroll**

-facepalm-

Dave needs to play against marines with a weaker faction and see if marine units are underpowered.

**Selym**

Verviedi wrote:
So... Why did you post this here? This really seems like a personal problem for you to deal with together. Posting personal things like this on a public forum does not end well.

*reads first post again*

*realise that I missed a sentence*

I meant to add a line to the effect of "what arguments could I use to counter these assertions"...

Been trying since 2007...

**AncientSkarbrand**

Best argument is have him use the units he thinks are overpowered in a game. Without amazing rolls he simply has to notice he was wrong.

**Selym**

Last time I tried that, he refused the game. I would try to get him to build a CSM list, but I sold my CSM stuff ages ago. May try it with IG, but after dozens of games between my IG and him, he's still claiming that I'm not using cover properly.
Which makes no sense given that you can't deploy sufficient firepower and have space to maneuver as IG.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I crunch'd numbers, and I am going to do an experiment.

I wrote this:

Spoiler:

It details the chances of a Vindicare assassin successfully injuring an unupgraded SM captain, if both models were in a vacuum. Given that Dave vehemently despises the Vinidcare for being "able" to one-shot a SM captain, and that this guy is proud of his statistics qualifications, I am going to present him with the evidence.

Evidence that a 150 point Vindicare is not OP.
If he refutes the argument, then he is not worth talking to about 40k ever again. If he follows it, then we may be getting somewhere.

**Jewelfox**

"They laughed, when I said Space Marine Privilege was a thing. Then they met Dave. Now they're not laughing anymore ... "

Srsly though, this ties in pretty well to the discussion going on in the "Is 40k too Space Marine centric?" thread. And on that note, Dantes_Baals' suggestion may work better than giving a numerical breakdown: Try trading armies with "Dave" for a few games, and see what he thinks is OP after that.

**Mr. Burning**

Are Dave and Traditio ever in the same room together?

Trade armies, and if that fails try and ignore him or be friends that don't discuss 40k.

**Verviedi**

Perhaps Dave is Traditio...

**pm713**

Not enough whining about Eldar.

**oldzoggy**

I have a friend who seems to think that OP and Traditio are two sides of the same coin

**Selym**

oldzoggy wrote:I have a friend who seems to think that OP and Traditio are two sides of the same coin

I write much better than Traditio.

Verviedi wrote:Perhaps Dave is Traditio...

Dave can't write sentences worth a damn.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Not enough whining about Eldar.

Oddly, he is perfectly fine with Wtaithguard.

**Traditio**

1. Nobody on dakka fora writes better than me. Let's be perfectly clear on that, Selym.

2. Selym has explicitly said he's been having these debates with his friend since 2007. I've not been playing warhammer 40k anywhere near that long.

3. There are a number of claims in the OP that I either haven't made, or else, even if I have, have since retracted.

Example: when have I ever made the claim that grav anything is anything other than a complete load of bull puckey?

At any rate:

There's OP bull gak in practically all of the popular codices, CSM included. That said, the only person who legitimately thinks that, on average, CSM is worse than SM is someone who is unfamiliar with the codex.

CSM have the option to take a heavy weapon and a special weapon if the squad numbers 10 models, but they can't combat squad.

On average, marines got much better and versatile in 6th edition because marines didn't have to form a 10 man squad any more to take a special or heavy weapon. Now you can take 5 and whichever weapon, special or heavy, you want.

Selym:

Would you mind posting your friend's usual army list?

And then post the usual army list that you use to play against him.

**pm713**

What's OP in Chaos?

**Traditio**

pm713 wrote:
What's OP in Chaos?

To my understanding, the heldrake was commonly complained about at least at one point, and it's still considered an auto-include in "competitive" CSM armies.

**pm713**

Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:
What's OP in Chaos?

To my understanding, the heldrake was commonly complained about at least at one point, and it's still considered an auto-include in "competitive" CSM armies.

So nothing. It was complained about then got nerfed hard. When something is bad it becomes an auto take in a codex of terrible.

**Traditio**

pm713 wrote:So nothing. It was complained about then got nerfed hard. When something is bad it becomes an auto take in a codex of terrible.

I don't know enough about it to comment. I only know that it's been complained about and is still an auto-include.

Flying daemon princes can be a gigantic pain in the butt (though nowhere near as much of a pain in the butt as a flyrant), but they're more of a gigantic pain in the butt in the chaos daemons and KDK books.

Really, the only reason why you don't see more complaints about flying MCs, and MCs in general, is because grav centurions exist.

**pm713**

Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:So nothing. It was complained about then got nerfed hard. When something is bad it becomes an auto take in a codex of terrible.

I don't know enough about it to comment. I only know that it's been complained about and is still an auto-include.

Flying daemon princes can be a gigantic pain in the butt (though nowhere near as much of a pain in the butt as a flyrant), but they're more of a gigantic pain in the butt in the chaos daemons and KDK books.

Daemon Princes are hardly difficult to deal with.

So you're making unsubstantiated claims basically.

**Traditio**

pm713 wrote:Daemon Princes are hardly difficult to deal with.

Relative to what?

**Selym**

Traditio wrote:

Selym:

Would you mind posting your friend's usual army list?

And then post the usual army list that you use to play against him.

I no longer know what constitutes a normal list for either of us, as in the last year and a half we've only been able to do kill team games. My game count for this year is one.

**pm713**

Traditio wrote:
pm713 wrote:Daemon Princes are hardly difficult to deal with.

Relative to what?

Well with points it doesn't matter. Everything is equal after all.

**Selym**

eh?

**Traditio**

Selym wrote:I no longer know what constitutes a normal list for either of us, as in the last year and a half we've only been able to do kill team games. My game count for this year is one.

Ok:

What was the last large scale battle you both played against each other? What did you both use?

**Selym**

Dave spammed as much SM armour and Dreadnoughts as possible, and I brought all my anti-armour stuff.

Which meant several Russes, a Valkyrie and Vet squads with melta. The guardsmen did nothing, as their Chimeras got popped on T1, and then they got bolter'd before getting within melta range, my Russes kept getting popped by well-aimed lascannons (I have horrible luck with them), Pask in Punisher failed to do anything, due to grenade toting scouts and tactical marines...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tabled by the end of T3.

**Traditio**

Selym wrote:
Dave spammed as much SM armour and Dreadnoughts as possible, and I brought all my anti-armour stuff.

Which meant several Russes, a Valkyrie and Vet squads with melta. The guardsmen did nothing, as their Chimeras got popped on T1, and then they got bolter'd before getting within melta range, my Russes kept getting popped by well-aimed lascannons (I have horrible luck with them), Pask in Punisher failed to do anything, due to grenade toting scouts and tactical marines...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tabled by the end of T3.

Let me guess:

He usually wins. He just doesn't like the fact that he has to remove an occasional model?

**Verviedi**

How much terrain do you usually play with?