Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

BA assaults actually have a good chance at killing IG in CQC...

I mean, T3 Sv5+ I3 isn't exactly a fighting chance vs T4 Sv3+ I4 when they have 3 attacks on the charge (ASM) or 2 otherwise. Especially when marines basic guns ignore their armor before getting into cqc.

 Wolfblade wrote:
BA assaults actually have a good chance at killing IG in CQC...

I mean, T3 Sv5+ I3 isn't exactly a fighting chance vs T4 Sv3+ I4 when they have 3 attacks on the charge (ASM) or 2 otherwise. Especially when marines basic guns ignore their armor before getting into cqc.

BA don't live to get there. Because meqs are bad in 7th.

Clearly he is just out of touch with the state of the game. Ask a SW friend to run 6 ThunderCav with a bike librarius and a bike Wyrdstorm brotherhood attached. Makes the unit T5 with a 2++ rerollable if you get two powers (with 20 rolls, not unlikely) and after that, add Invis and Endurance. Ask him why Guardsmen are cheesy.

Then, have him play against Eldar. Once he starts taking ranged D shots on everything he knows and loves, light him up with 100 scatterlaser shots from your fortuned jetbikes.

Flyrant spam. Barkbark star. Superfriends. Riptide Wing. Knights. Skyhammer. Daemons. Decurions. Void Shield Generators. Battle Companies. WarConvos.

Your friend is probably winning most of his games because he's not playing against competitive armies, and thus has no sense of what is OP in the game. None of what I included above even mentions FW units, because it can get even worse from there.

Most FW stuff is tame compared to base stuff now.

Martel732 wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
BA assaults actually have a good chance at killing IG in CQC...

I mean, T3 Sv5+ I3 isn't exactly a fighting chance vs T4 Sv3+ I4 when they have 3 attacks on the charge (ASM) or 2 otherwise. Especially when marines basic guns ignore their armor before getting into cqc.

BA don't live to get there. Because meqs are bad in 7th.

If they spam guardsmen like you suggest, they're not doing any damage anyways.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IG are not terrible at stoping rhino rush or killing sterngard marines with grav guns.

IG really aren't bad against any form of space marines.

Please provide examples of IG units and builds that can actually handle Marines (AKA the faction that is second only to Eldar).

@Selym:

This Dave of yours sounds a lot like my Timmy (maybe ill go more into him later, lets see).
Timmy does not like to lose and will often complain bitterly about things being overpowered because they can kill Marines.
Timmy does not like an IG army that contains lots of Infantry and calls it cheesey spam and complains about the volume Lasgun shots and time taken per turn.
Timmy also hates IG armies with tanks in and calls six Leman Russ hulls "cheesey tank spam".
Timmy has a dislike for Baneblade hulls and feels they are overpowered.
Timmy cannot believe that Storm Troopers have AP 3 Lasguns.

I could go on, but does this sound familiar?

Spot on. Dave is a guy that, after being convinced to play against a Helhammer, killed it within 3 turns with less than half his usual compliment of AT firepower, lost only about 200 points of stuff to it, and still called me a tfg for using it.

 Wolfblade wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
BA assaults actually have a good chance at killing IG in CQC...

I mean, T3 Sv5+ I3 isn't exactly a fighting chance vs T4 Sv3+ I4 when they have 3 attacks on the charge (ASM) or 2 otherwise. Especially when marines basic guns ignore their armor before getting into cqc.

BA don't live to get there. Because meqs are bad in 7th.

If they spam guardsmen like you suggest, they're not doing any damage anyways.

I guess all my models dying was just my imagination. IG shoot units with average or below average durability dead. Their inability to deal with deathstars is what really limits them. Not some meq losers.

You mean, above average toughness like say, marine bikers? Or anything with a lib conclave? Or smashfether? Or a fist of medusa? Or anything that can put out a lot of wounds like 3x whirlwinds (ignores cover + shred = dead IG)

It takes 18 lasgun shots to kill ONE marine on foot. Hardly amazing firepower. a squad of 50 with FRFSRF can expect 8.33 marines dead. Slightly more with overpriced special weapons obviously, less if the marines are IH (IH would drop it to 6.944)

That's 280pts for that one squad of 50 + the PCS before ANY upgrades, to kill 8.33 marines, who cost a grand total of 116.2 points.

Martel732 wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
BA assaults actually have a good chance at killing IG in CQC...

I mean, T3 Sv5+ I3 isn't exactly a fighting chance vs T4 Sv3+ I4 when they have 3 attacks on the charge (ASM) or 2 otherwise. Especially when marines basic guns ignore their armor before getting into cqc.

BA don't live to get there. Because meqs are bad in 7th.

MEQ's are a hell of a lot better than GEQ's Martel. Just because the BA codex is not quite as up to scratch and new as the C:SM codex, does not change this fact.

I'd say bikers are still average. Yes, marine tricks put them over. But the tricks put the over against almost every list.

IG are tough for DA and BA played correctly. That's how they really stack up vs meqs.

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
IG are not terrible at stoping rhino rush or killing sterngard marines with grav guns.

IG really aren't bad against any form of space marines.

Please provide examples of IG units and builds that can actually handle Marines (AKA the faction that is second only to Eldar).

@Selym:

This Dave of yours sounds a lot like my Timmy (maybe ill go more into him later, lets see).
Timmy does not like to lose and will often complain bitterly about things being overpowered because they can kill Marines.
Timmy does not like an IG army that contains lots of Infantry and calls it cheesey spam and complains about the volume Lasgun shots and time taken per turn.
Timmy also hates IG armies with tanks in and calls six Leman Russ hulls "cheesey tank spam".
Timmy has a dislike for Baneblade hulls and feels they are overpowered.
Timmy cannot believe that Storm Troopers have AP 3 Lasguns.

I could go on, but does this sound familiar?

Spot on. Dave is a guy that, after being convinced to play against a Helhammer, killed it within 3 turns with less than half his usual compliment of AT firepower, lost only about 200 points of stuff to it, and still called me a tfg for using it.

Ack, I feel for you then Selym. Timmy/Dave players are a scourge on us all.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
BA assaults actually have a good chance at killing IG in CQC...

I mean, T3 Sv5+ I3 isn't exactly a fighting chance vs T4 Sv3+ I4 when they have 3 attacks on the charge (ASM) or 2 otherwise. Especially when marines basic guns ignore their armor before getting into cqc.

BA don't live to get there. Because meqs are bad in 7th.

MEQ's are a hell of a lot better than GEQ's Martel. Just because the BA codex is not quite as up to scratch and new as the C:SM codex, does not change this fact.

Are they better for the points? When you're getting hit with ion accelerators, it doesn't matter anymore.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
BA assaults actually have a good chance at killing IG in CQC...

I mean, T3 Sv5+ I3 isn't exactly a fighting chance vs T4 Sv3+ I4 when they have 3 attacks on the charge (ASM) or 2 otherwise. Especially when marines basic guns ignore their armor before getting into cqc.

BA don't live to get there. Because meqs are bad in 7th.

MEQ's are a hell of a lot better than GEQ's Martel. Just because the BA codex is not quite as up to scratch and new as the C:SM codex, does not change this fact.

Are they better for the points? When you're getting hit with ion accelerators, it doesn't matter anymore.

That's not just a MEQ/GEQ problem though, that's an anyone problem. the IA only struggles against WKs/fliers really. And only fliers if the riptide didn't take the skyfire upgrade.

(also, a terrifying squad of 50 guardsman + PCS is 280 points, and will kill roughly 8.33 marines, or 6.944 if they're IH, for a total of 116.2pts at best) IG are not a tough match up for any of the top armies really, because guardsmen are overpriced and under performing.

Also, we're massively off topic now.

" IG are not a tough match up for any of the top armies really"

Yeah, that's why IG are in the lower middle. But it's a shooting edition. That's my point.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Also, we're massively off topic now.

Personally, I'd consider this conversation relevant to the thread.

then why argue IG are a tough match up for MEQ if they're not?

 Wolfblade wrote:
then why argue IG are a tough match up for MEQ if they're not?

Because to Martel, MEQ = BA and/or DA.

SW, CSM, C:SM and infantry that have marine-like stats are not MEQ.

 Wolfblade wrote:
then why argue IG are a tough match up for MEQ if they're not?

Because for marines that lack access to any 7th Ed toys, don't have enough bodies and what they do have isn't useful until they make assault (and is totally overpriced ). The exception would be Ravenwing, but against any other nonvanilla marines, IG IF PLAYED PROPERLY should crush them. I facepalm ed two black eyes reading this thread. Some people really underestimate buckets of dice. Especially when there is divination involved.

If you run guard in a competitive meta and

- use more than 1 unit of russes
- Don't run platoons
- Don't run psykers
- deploy like an idiot
- Don't use tarpit like you're getting paid to

... you should use the time you spend complaining, adapting. When you've adapted and you're still getting rolled, ask for and apply advice given. Still not working ? THEN you get to complain. From those of you running 5th edition tank parks and foot veterans who have the tools and advice to run your armies effectively I'm fething sick of hearing about how OP marines are (and strangely how marine players are TFG as a result).

There's a saying from my old neighborhood that would serve you well.
"If you ran into an donkey-cave this morning, you ran into an donkey-cave. I'd you run into donkey-caves all day long, there's a good probability that you're the donkey-cave".

Now before reds8n deletes this, I'm not insulting anyone. Merely disseminating a long overdue advice/opinion.

Idk why you think none ofbus do those things.

 Selym wrote:
Idk why you think none ofbus do those things.

I can't speak for the other IG players, but one in particular has actually argued to keep his tank parks, psyker-less armies and lackluster deployments. Im sure there are other frustrated guard players that haven't yet (that are hopefully open to suggestions). I'm equally sure that there are others that are willing to settle and whine about a problem that can be fixed. Finally there are vets that have been there, done that brought it home and opened it. You seem to fall into the 3rd category. From your tactics related posts you seem to know what you're doing. Your biggest problem seems to be certain SM chapter tactics and psychic powers.

 Selym wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:
then why argue IG are a tough match up for MEQ if they're not?

Because to Martel, MEQ = BA and/or DA.

SW, CSM, C:SM and infantry that have marine-like stats are not MEQ.

Almost no marine power list actually involves meqs. Even unbuffed bikers aren't that hot, despite all the bitching an moaning. It's always some non-meq unit like cents combined with psychic powers. Gladius is a weird exception, but it's method of winning is VERY different, and it's a style that IG stacks up well against.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:
then why argue IG are a tough match up for MEQ if they're not?

For meq, they are tough. Not for top lists that happen to come from C:SM that don't actually use meqs. A big, big difference.

Tip one for IG players: take all your Russes and put them in long-term storage. That change alone will help you a lot.

No! Martel! Down! *sprays with water bottle*

We're talking Vanilla Icecream with blue cheese here, not Raspberry Ripple with toast.

In all seriousness, can you expect anything more from the faction that has basically been GW's sheltered baby? At least the eldar have an in-lore reason for being haunty and rude.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
(incidentally I have seen Vanilla and Blue Cheese Icecream before. Once. Just once. In some random Quebec Town)

In World of Warcraft we have a saying when someone complains about a particular class or spec being overpowered in PvP. It boils down to, "Paper is OP, Scissors is fine, Rock's okay but could use a small buff. By the way I play Rock." This Dave guy sounds like he'd complain about Scissors being OP too.

To answer the 4chan TFG points:

>That Guy never brings his own food, and always steals everyone else's.
Yes. The other day, I was out walking around with him. We visited a chippie. He noted that he was a little hungry. I offered to buy him some chips. He said he'd just get something at home. I bought my chips. Almost as soon as we left the chippe, he started reaching for my chips. Got somewhat offended when I told him that if he wanted chips, he should have taken the offer of his own share.

>That Guy always always does loud and bad imitations when he plays. K-Booom! Dakka-dakka-dakka! WAAAAAGH!
Thankfully no.

>That Guy always smells bad and wears clothes that expose his overweight asscrack.
Actually pretty fit. Seems to shower often.

>That Guy never shares his Cheetos, and he always gets orange dust all over everything. He doesn't clean his hands off before touching YOUR minis and books, either.
Never been in a situation to which this could apply.

>That Guy will always bring so much cheese to the table that the other players instantly become lactose intolerant and choke (fun fact, cheese doesn't have much lactose so this probably wouldn't happen(ALSO choking IS NOT a symptom of lactose intolerance)).
Doesn't bring much cheese, but always, ALWAYS list tailors. I mean really. It's almost impossible to stop him.

>That Guy never bothers to learn the rules, but will happily crash play to a halt every single turn.
Knows the rules (apart from sometimes thinking that 4E rules apply. Even when it benefits nobody). But does spend far more time arguing about rules than playing the game.

>That Guy will exploit every loophole in the rules to his advantage or require an utterly anal level of rule following whenever it suits him.
Yeppers. Once argued for nearly half an hour about whether or not his 3+ save marine gets a cover save against an Ap - lasgun.

>That Guy will try to fight against the party and consider himself clever (because he's "winning", but will ragequit when the party kills him.
Will attempt to railroad narratives to massivley benefit Ultramarines.

>That Guy always has to play his own homebrew race and class, both of which are horribly overpowered.
Thankfully (or not), he's too much of an Ultramarine fanboy to do this. Will not let balanced and playtested alternative units play though. Only accepts GW certified stuff, even if it's horrendously broken. Claiming that GW is good at writing rules.

>That Guy inserts his creepy fetishes into everything, and is the reason men are banned from playing women in your group.
Too uptight about sexuality to do this.

>That Guy has tendency to get really mad over nothing.
Damn near constantly. Got enraged that a Vindicare Assassin has BS8. Completely ignored the fact that a Vindy is actually pretty crap.

>That Guy fires into melee combat without the proper feats and abilities.
Too much of a rules lawyer to allow this.

>That Guy swears loudly in a public (Cons, FLGS, someone else's house.)
Hates swearing.

>That Guy either doesn't paint his models or paints them too much.
Fully painted. No to the best standard, but painted.

>Hey... feth THAT GUY!!!
Some days.

Martel732 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:
then why argue IG are a tough match up for MEQ if they're not?

For meq, they are tough. Not for top lists that happen to come from C:SM that don't actually use meqs. A big, big difference.

Tip one for IG players: take all your Russes and put them in long-term storage. That change alone will help you a lot.

Not really, and I tried that Martel. Do you know what happened to the several hundred man blob with psyker support? Well shall we just say there is a reason I do not agree with your suggestions.

As it turns out;

Fabulous tactical diagram!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
No! Martel! Down! *sprays with water bottle*

We're talking Vanilla Icecream with blue cheese here, not Raspberry Ripple with toast.

In all seriousness, can you expect anything more from the faction that has basically been GW's sheltered baby? At least the eldar have an in-lore reason for being haunty and rude.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
(incidentally I have seen Vanilla and Blue Cheese Icecream before. Once. Just once. In some random Quebec Town)

You mean space wolves right?

 Selym wrote:
As it turns out;

Spoiler:

Plus



Equals

Yep. However, IG blobs plus Azrael is pretty damn fun

Marine butt hurt has long been the driving force of 40k...
I mean, just look what happened to the poor Chaos Marines when those players accidently "won" the campaign they weren't supposed to win!

I still will NEVER forgive the vast majority of GK players for their behaviour during late 5th/early 6th edition towards Daemons in general...
Yeah, it was "perfectly balanced" and "completely fair" for them to be able to 100% prevent Daemons from even legally deploying a single damn model on the table!

Now though? Ever since the 6th ed Daemon book hit, they won't shut up about how bonkers & OP Daemons are, and that we "broke 40k forever" with summoning and re-rolled 2++ deathstars.
(note: Imperial re-rolled 2++ deathstars are however, perfectly fine according to a number of the local Loyalist scum, because theirs at least requires 2 different codices to function! )