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Noir wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

Where we come unstuck is hacking programs, but once we found the quick reference pages that got a lot faster as well.

Have you looked a Captains Spuds Hacker Helper. Have not used the book for hacking since I found it. it can even be used offline.

Just wanted to reiterate how awesome this is.
Another example of CB allowing fans and 3rd parties to enrich their IP imo.

On the other hand, overly relying on community to fix your own problems is not a good selling point.

A small company trying to do to many things is often a good way to destroy a small company.

In this specific example the hacking system is perfectly functional there just happens to also be a great reference tool as well.
Not jumping into terrain creation, or tokens and working with partners to optimize their strengths and resources is one of the most impressive things CB has done.

 plastictrees wrote:
A small company trying to do to many things is often a good way to destroy a small company.

In this specific example the hacking system is perfectly functional there just happens to also be a great reference tool as well.
Not jumping into terrain creation, or tokens and working with partners to optimize their strengths and resources is one of the most impressive things CB has done.

Plastictrees dig this...

Corvus has helped give smaller companies a market for product types they were already creating and didn't really have a big market for anyway Corvus is supporting the "independent" war gaming industry more than any other company right now if you really think about it.

Plenty of other companies do that as well you know? CB ain't exactly forging new ground by doing that. "More than any other company" is massive hyperbole if you look around at other companies and genres (historicals, for example)

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Plenty of other companies do that as well you know? CB ain't exactly forging new ground by doing that. "More than any other company" is massive hyperbole if you look around at other companies and genres (historicals, for example)

Yup, just like saying relying on fans to fix CB problems is massive hyperbole.

N3, with HSN3 'finishing' it, is a cleaner and smoother experience (And better balanced) than N2. The only rule that really got more complex is Hacking, which became a list of abilities/weapons rather than just a WIP roll. Personally, I think it could have been done a little smoother, but they provide tools to make this clear.

Namely, since CB hired the guys who did their initial army builder app as fans, then made it the official thing the game uses (also to release new profiles), that helps immensely. Most of the bugs are worked out, so the thing prints almost all the reference you need.

I've played for a few years, so by now just the army list is what I need to play since it comes with weapon and hacking and special rule references (ie, metachemistry or booty tables). Cornercase rules questions do pop up from time to time, but that's no more different than any other games' in my experience in the general level of how cornercase they are.

Does army 6 (or whatever it's up to now) print with the incidental rules that will come up for your list, like ammo types, available hacking programs, etc? Because that would make it exceptionally useful.

It can do hacking programs (I don't bother with that checkbox, though - I have the QSR sheet tables).

Don't think it provides the rules for different ammo types, though. Or skills.

ONLY the builder part of that links to the wiki, not the finished output.

Ash at GMG has put together a 'Recon' ruleset which bridges the starter set and full ITS, at max 150 points, which could be the solution for those wanting quicker, less complicated games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av29ieyiO0U

End of the day N3, outside of hacking getting more complex (but actually being useful) is a cleaner, better explained, and easier to understand game.

They did a lot to standardize and formalize things. Fewer places where the rules are wholly unlike other similar situations or where their are specific exceptions. More flat modifiers and static values used (dispersion, infiltration, impersonation, etc.). In that regard I find it easier to learn and teach than 2nd Edition was. In some ways it is more verbose, but only because it explains its intent and gives more examples.

For a lot of us 2nd Edition was a familiar blanket that we came to memorize the oddities of over the course of many years and many games. This is what makes N3 so hard for us. It is simultaneously a thing that we are super familiar with, but something that we really should be re-learning from the ground up just like we did with 1st and 2nd Edition. But most of us went in with the bad habits that those editions taught us and it made N3 seem that much more insurmountable to people who feel like they should have been able to get up and running in no time flat. This is always the hardest part about a new edition that seeks to fix fundamental flaws that folks have gotten used to. Change too much and you risk alienating the veterans who will have a tough time transitioning because their brain has already gotten used to and subsumed the old flaws so that they feel more like features than bugs at this point.

I'm right there with everyone. I've played since 1st Edition dropped, I was the person who taught my gaming group and built the small Infinity community here. N3 was really hard for me to get in to. I've consumed a lot of rule sets in my life, and few are as multifaceted and complex as Infinity. 2nd Edition was mostly just a bit of housekeeping with a few changes to things like initiative and didn't throw me for a loop. But I can also spend hours listing off the flaws of the old editions and the places where they broke and failed. I learned them back-to-front and by the time N3 came around, I just felt a sort of fatigue about having to re-learn a fairly complex game that I had for so long had an authoritative knowledge of.

So to a lot of us vets, N3 feels harder because we were so familiar with the long-standing previous edition even though objectively, I'd say N3 is probably easier to grok in every way shape and form.

HOWEVER[i][u]

This isn't a huge help to new players and I think this is probably going to hinder long-term growth of N3. Back in ye olden days, those of use who learned 1st and 2nd edition did so before the mass proliferation of profiles. We ran intro games back when there were only a handful of released models. We learned the game slowly and in steps and because of that we got familiar with it as it built up (like a frog in heated water if you will). This allowed us to be bastions of knowledge for new players coming in at more complex points in the game's history.

2nd Edition+Human Sphere is a vastly more complex game than we started with, but we worked the basics until we were running as efficiently as a Swiss time piece and we could easily teach others because of this.

But with N3 dropping we veterans are no longer these fonts of indepth knowledge. N3 didn't start small and simple, it was already established and when it dropped it did it with a full line of releases at its back. N3 had the unenviable task of needing to hit the ground running to appease players who had gotten used to the game we had at the end of 2nd Edition (a really complex game) but needed to still make fundamental improvements to the game's structure that would cause those familiar with it to have an uphill struggle re-learning so much of it.

So the newbies coming in to this highly complex game no longer get to fall back on the knowledge and experience of veterans that know the whole thing (warts and all) back to front. We're all newbies again, but the game is no longer a little waif of a thing with scant number of releases. The player base aged and got used to a big, meaty, complex game. But they only got their by building up slowly from the initial release. N3 started there and was sprinting to catch up to the game we had at the end of 2nd so that it could be "complete" again.

So in fixing the ills of 2nd Edition, in giving better explanations and standardizing things out they have shaken up veteran players who need to relearn much of what they have spent years memorizing while also making the learning curve for the initial game higher because not only are the people who used to ease people in still grappling with the new rule set, but the new rule set is every bit as opaque and impenetrable as it was at the end of 2nd Edition.

Good intro products like Icestorm and Red Veil will help this, and with luck a second generation of veterans will step up to the plate and help things along. But with that said CB needs to be very careful to prevent rules bloat as more supplements come out because too much change could push things over the edge.

There are one very specific things I think they need to streamline

That is MetaChemistry

Its a rule inwhich you roll a d20 at the start of the game. For each model that has it, meaning several rolls if you bring several models with it, that provides a specific bonus from a list of nearly 20 different bonuses. Then you need to remember what each bonus does, and which model had which bonus.

It is easily the most tortuous mechanic to use in this game, and makes the model that has MetaChemistry one of the most rarely used because of how awful this mechanic is. They SLIGHTLY fixed this by releasing MetaChemistry L2, which works in a similar style but the amount of different bonuses on the chart was reduced to like 5 potential options. Except that they released a new model with MC2 and models with MC1 will still use the old awful chart...

And let's not forget the decision to constantly make same named abilities with a L# appended to it, but is otherwise a mostly separate ability entirely.

 Vertrucio wrote:
And let's not forget the decision to constantly make same named abilities with a L# appended to it, but is otherwise a mostly separate ability entirely.

That's OK with me, since L2 abilities usually also confer L1 abilities.

The other way to handle it (40k for example) is to say that Universal Special Rule A also confers Universal Special Rule R, Y, and Z, all of which are listed on completely separate pages, and may themselves confer other USRs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talamare wrote:
There are one very specific things I think they need to streamline

That is MetaChemistry

Its a rule inwhich you roll a d20 at the start of the game. For each model that has it, meaning several rolls if you bring several models with it, that provides a specific bonus from a list of nearly 20 different bonuses. Then you need to remember what each bonus does, and which model had which bonus.

It is easily the most tortuous mechanic to use in this game, and makes the model that has MetaChemistry one of the most rarely used because of how awful this mechanic is. They SLIGHTLY fixed this by releasing MetaChemistry L2, which works in a similar style but the amount of different bonuses on the chart was reduced to like 5 potential options. Except that they released a new model with MC2 and models with MC1 will still use the old awful chart...

This is how Booty works too. Silly mechanic IMO.

If you regularly run multiple troopers with Metachemistry (i.e. you're playing Nomads or Bakunin) it's pretty easy to do some little unit sheets that have the Metachemistry table on, and stick them in card sleeves.

Also, if I'm being picky, 12 is not 'nearly 20'. :(

"Oh no I have to remember single special abilities!"

Heaven forbid you just write it down.

As for the complexity making it hard to know all the rules... Don't. One of the things I enjoy is learning new rules for another faction as I play and studying it afterwards. Know your own rules and troopers and get to playing!

Easiest way to fix most of this; make unit cards.

I don't think Infinity has more or less equipment, skills or special rules than any other game on the market. Does it have tons of possible interactions? Yes. But in this edition most of them are fairly cut and dry.

That said, the information requires time to access. A lot of games have pushed towards 'all the information in front of you' accessories. I think Unit Cards would go a long way solving this.

You could easily fit most of the relevant per-model information on a single card, including special skill synopsis (just highlights of the tags and effects, can use symbology), weapons and ranges, stats.

As I think I've said, expanding the amount of information that the army builder can include for you could fulfill that role. It already can do weapon and hacking info, if they made it able to include skill summaries it would basically do what unit cards would do.

 Achilles wrote:
Easiest way to fix most of this; make unit cards.

I don't think Infinity has more or less equipment, skills or special rules than any other game on the market. Does it have tons of possible interactions? Yes. But in this edition most of them are fairly cut and dry.

That said, the information requires time to access. A lot of games have pushed towards 'all the information in front of you' accessories. I think Unit Cards would go a long way solving this.

You could easily fit most of the relevant per-model information on a single card, including special skill synopsis (just highlights of the tags and effects, can use symbology), weapons and ranges, stats.

Having used a printout from Army 6 on the weekend, I'd say it's a better option than unit cards with the caveat that you need to pre-prepare a list. It lists all profiles, weapon range bands and stats and hacking programs that your hackers have access to. All it needs to do now is bundle in ammo, skill and equipment rules into a quick reference style table and it would be absolutely perfect.

Unit cards would be nice, but the huge range of profiles which you can take multiple times, some without restriction, would make them somewhat unweildy.

Their mobile device really needs a print to PDF option that opens the same PDF output in a web browser (if it doesn't already, my friend uses it but has a lot of problems with cycling through the pages), that way you wouldn't need to pre-prepare a list.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
As I think I've said, expanding the amount of information that the army builder can include for you could fulfill that role. It already can do weapon and hacking info, if they made it able to include skill summaries it would basically do what unit cards would do.

The skills are clickable and hyperlinked to the wiki.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

 TheWaspinator wrote:
As I think I've said, expanding the amount of information that the army builder can include for you could fulfill that role. It already can do weapon and hacking info, if they made it able to include skill summaries it would basically do what unit cards would do.

The skills are clickable and hyperlinked to the wiki.

That'll be perfect once you explain to me how to use hyperlinks on a printout.

The only problem with unit cards is languages - they've mentioned not doing them before and I stand with them on that. It's just not cost effective for them to do.

They'd need Spanish, English, Russian, French, German, etc for each of them (as well as metric and imperial measures).

I'm not finding a problem with the Army 6 printout.

All the units that you're using on one sheet of A4, no unnecessary stuff or alternative equipment loadouts to distract you.

Weapons and Hacking programmes on the back of it - just the stuff that you need and no other guff.

The concept of having to cart around a mountain of cards for every single unit with all the loadouts on them and remember what model is equipped with what (Ghulam card would be hideous!).

No, no and thrice, no...

 Achilles wrote:
That said, the information requires time to access. A lot of games have pushed towards 'all the information in front of you' accessories. I think Unit Cards would go a long way solving this.

You could easily fit most of the relevant per-model information on a single card, including special skill synopsis (just highlights of the tags and effects, can use symbology), weapons and ranges, stats.

Having seen many many people do Infinity unit cards over the years, most of the slightly more complex units will really struggle to fit onto a single card, even if you do one card per loadout (at a rough guess, 2000 cards) instead of one per unit (guesstimate 450 cards). :(

Taking a unit on the slightly higher end (but not as complex as a TAG):

Umbra Samaritan

Skills to summarise:
Fireteam: Haris (notes about the Xeodron+Xeodron+Samaritan Haris)
Hyper-Dynamics L1
Kinematika L2
Protheion L4
- V: Courage
- Stealth
- Surprise Attack (but no way to use it)
Super-Jump
V: NWI

Ammo types: (across all loadouts)
Breaker, Normal or Plasma depending on loadout
Flash
'Protheion'
Vorpal/Monofilament

Weapon profiles: (across all loadouts)
Breaker Combi
Flash Pulse
Pistol
Vorpal CCW
Plasma Carbine
Spitfire

Other:
EI Assault Hacking Device + Goodnight (11 Hacking programs)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. I think unit cards work fine for plainer units, but they're not the units that players would be wanting the summaries for.

I don't think unit cards are the way to go. They become obsolete too quickly.

The Army APP is the way to go. Everything at the tip of your finger.

I think it's the fate of any miniatures game to suffer rules bloat to some degree. At least to make a profit, the company is under pressure to come out with new units/factions and give them different rules to make them sexy. It's been happening to xwing as well, in a relatively simple game you now have a slightly bloated variety of different weapons and abilities. Even if they are printed on cards it still takes actually playing with the abilities to deal with them functionally in the game.

Have to be honest though as someone getting into the game and have been collecting the miniatures for years, I don't think i'd be nearly as interested if the rules weren't the way they are.

Yes there is a lot of information, but it's all in one place (no financial/physical barriers) and it takes some homework. I have a feeling that most of the people complaining, if they had to memorize the rules for a job or school it would be like no problem. What you get for the effort is a game that will take a very long time before its 'played out'... assuming a normal person schedule and some degree of inventiveness by the players. And i very much appreciate that i'm not being forced to pay money for rules in a drip-feed like system.

That being said, I think any system can be made more elegant and intuitive to use. I think it's important to do as much as possible with game aids, and if it takes printing out cards for infinity and using other novel game aids well so be it. As long as they don't scrap everything and come out with an overhaul every two years.

Companies can overcome the rules bloat problem by diversifying their offerings rather than constantly bolting more onto an existing offering. I think CB is aware of this, hence the shameless market research segment of the GenCon presentation.

I certainly would not want to see CB scrap everything. I want to see them keep the game manageable for casual/occasional players like me. Tha means remaining true to Infinity as a skirmish game about shooting. Keep the core mechanics of the game. Those work very well. Keep a good representation of weapons, and ammunition, and simply place the rest, all the marginal stuff, into the "optional for home play" category along with Mercenaries. Really do something about hacking. Pare it down considerably. The skills, the fireteam rules, and the equipment, not sure what can be done with those.

The army builder does help, moreso, I think, than unit cards would, and certainly more than writing things down. Why would I do that? Everything is written down already, in the books, in the PDFs, on the wiki... convenient access to the rules, this is not the problem. Routinely pausing the game to look things up, or double check things, and thus breaking the flow of the game, the immersion if you will, this is the problem. The mass of rules, and more importantly, their interactions, this creates the complications-- not complexity but complication-- that slow the game. Too many ingredients, like too many cooks, can spoil the soup.

Committing everything to memory is not difficult, if you have the time to do it. Reinforcing the memories through constant play, also easy if you do play constantly. Hence my use of the term "lifestyle game". But this keeps the player base small, no? I'd like to see the player base grow.

 Red Harvest wrote:
Companies can overcome the rules bloat problem by diversifying their offerings rather than constantly bolting more onto an existing offering. I think CB is aware of this, hence the shameless market research segment of the GenCon presentation.

I certainly would not want to see CB scrap everything. I want to see them keep the game manageable for casual/occasional players like me. Tha means remaining true to Infinity as a skirmish game about shooting. Keep the core mechanics of the game. Those work very well. Keep a good representation of weapons, and ammunition, and simply place the rest, all the marginal stuff, into the "optional for home play" category along with Mercenaries. Really do something about hacking. Pare it down considerably. The skills, the fireteam rules, and the equipment, not sure what can be done with those.

The army builder does help, moreso, I think, than unit cards would, and certainly more than writing things down. Why would I do that? Everything is written down already, in the books, in the PDFs, on the wiki... convenient access to the rules, this is not the problem. Routinely pausing the game to look things up, or double check things, and thus breaking the flow of the game, the immersion if you will, this is the problem. The mass of rules, and more importantly, their interactions, this creates the complications-- not complexity but complication-- that slow the game. Too many ingredients, like too many cooks, can spoil the soup.

Committing everything to memory is not difficult, if you have the time to do it. Reinforcing the memories through constant play, also easy if you do play constantly. Hence my use of the term "lifestyle game". But this keeps the player base small, no? I'd like to see the player base grow.

Yes interactions can be a pain.

MSV2 guy shooting through a smoke. Does the target get an ARO because «he doesn't see anything»?

I get that question a lot. New players check the grenades first. Nope not there. Hum maybe its in MSV2? Nope not there. Finally they find the Visibility Zone section at the end of the books. Its all logical once you find it but it takes too long. That is the main complaint of people who love INFINITY but don't play regularly. They are super tired after a game of sifting through the rules. I also have a very low retention level with new players. At first all is great but when they get into the more advance interactions I loose them. I estimate only one-in-ten players will become a regular player. That is very low.

I don't want a 3.5. But I want a 4E that somehow manages to make remove a lot of the «rules hunting» from the equation.

Marc part of that can be mitigated by pairing those newer players with veteran gamers. By far, the most exhausting games I've ever played were as a new player, against new players. The entire game consists of looking up rules. Ideally though, two newer players could jump in without depending on the larger community.

 Red Harvest wrote:
A friend of mind who used to play has recently told me he has no interest in playing again because Infinity has become a "Lifestyle" game.

N3.5 would retain the complexity that arises in Infinity play, which is where the complexity should be, instead of in the choices made before the game.

Suggestions on how and where to trim the fat?

I do not play Infinity, although it is a game that I have always been interested in. The skirmish scale is good, the models are lovely. But I'm not about to start in on a 150-page rulebook with hair-splitting special rules and cross-referenced exceptions to those rules. I'm a casual gamer, and I'd only be interested in playing at a Quickstart level of rules complexity.

For comparison, this year, we finally got around to building our Flames of War: Open Fire set, and playing it. We played the quickstart game, and it was OK, although the tabletop scale ranges have issues. After glancing through the small print full rulebook, we agreed it would have added nothing to the experience, but only to have bogged it down. Subsequent to that, I bought the latest 36-page quickstart (32 pages of rules & 4 pages of missions) and the 40-page forces primer.

I would be interested in a similar (preferably lower) complexity version of Infinity (32 pages of rules & missions, 32 pages of forces), whereas the current 150-page N3 rulebook is a complete non-starter for me.