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feeder wrote: They are both bad. If the US election was a walk to work, HRC would be like getting bird poop on your hat. Trump would be like getting hit by a car. See? Both bad.
No, Clinton would be like... actually having to go through the hassle of walking to work. Annoying not really the way you'd like to do things, but given the basic concept it's how things have to be, and it's kind of foolish to think they're going to be any different.
Hey! I like my walk to work. Except when I get bird poop on my hat, or get hit by a car.
sebster wrote:
feeder wrote: Right, unless she doesn't, in which case people who have been pushing the "BOTH BAD!" angle need to take a long, hard drink of water and think about what they have done.
Republicans blamed Obama when they overturned his veto and put a piece of bad legislation in place. I have no problem believing that in the event of a Trump presidency lots of people that voted for Trump would immediately decide that it is Clinton's fault that they voted for Trump.
You're probably right about that. I meant to specifically refer to those people who are protest voting 3rd party because "both are equally as bad" (they're not)
They are both bad. If the US election was a walk to work, HRC would be like getting bird poop on your hat. Trump would be like getting hit by a car. See? Both bad.
Even your example shows massive difference in scale.
Frazzled wrote:
feeder wrote: It's not liberal bias to think Trump is a worse candidate that HRC in every possible way.
Hitler vs. Mussolini is still a bad choice.
Its about time the American people had a better choice, a Selma Hyack vs. Elizabeth Hurley kind of choice.
A Mexican or a Englishwoman? I like your thinking Frazz. America has lost her way, and needs an outside guiding hand
BigWaaagh wrote:
That's nice to say, but if the 3rd parties want legitimacy, they need to do better than Gary Johnson and Dr. Jill Stein. Both candidates and their parties have shown very little that is attractive to the mainstream other than a "rage" option for their vote this fall.
What I'd like to see, and what I think we will see more frequently, is more Sanders-like Independents who aren't beholding to strict party-line dogma.
Yeah, no kidding. Johnson only compares favorably to Trump because he seems like a decent guy. Decent in the way I'd shoot a round of pool with him, not that I'd want him running the country.
whembly wrote:This isn't a *new* phenomenon. What *is* new, is the ubiquitous of social media that makes these things "louder" in a sense.
This is very true. The echo chambers are louder than ever. I only really discuss politics in here (and my local radio station's FB page) because there is a nice cross section of views. I can't stand the places where people are falling over each other to congratulate themselves on how much they agree on things.
Frazzled wrote:I remember the Democrats saying a vote for Reagan was a vote for nuclear war.
The first political thing I remember being exposed to was this music video. It gave eight year old feeder nightmares.
We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
I'm not a huge fan of the monster clown analogy (appropriate as the words are to describe Trump...) If I can bring up the one thing more disappointing than this election cycle, I think a better comparison might involve the Star Wars prequel movies.
Clinton's got a bit of a Valorum vibe going; lots of high-profile mud-slinging from opponents, ties to the bureaucratic establishment, very strongly for business as usual politics, opposed by someone who touts himself as a strong man in a difficult time. Not particularly popular with a lot of people, but in hindsight would almost certainly be way, waaaay better than her opponent.
whembly wrote:This isn't a *new* phenomenon. What *is* new, is the ubiquitous of social media that makes these things "louder" in a sense.
This is very true. The echo chambers are louder than ever. I only really discuss politics in here (and my local radio station's FB page) because there is a nice cross section of views. I can't stand the places where people are falling over each other to congratulate themselves on how much they agree on things.
Although, things have gotten worse over the years. What used to be people ranting on the fringe with a newsletter and maybe even an obscure radio show now get to make appearances on national news channels. It seems like there's even less respect or even decorum, as well. You have people actually interrupting the State of the Union address. You have senators writing public letters to another government to intentionally undermine international diplomacy. You have people sitting in protest (or even fleeing the state to prevent a vote). We have government shutdowns because someone is an attention whore. I know there are examples of things like this further in the past, but it just feels worse today, somehow. Like everything is happening all at once.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/06 17:29:33
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Kilkrazy wrote: Things are getting worse. For example, the records on filibusters show that they are used a lot more now than they were before.
The records also show that Republicans use more filibusters than Democrats, for what that is worth.
Republicans using the filibuster more often recently probably has more to do with the fact that they have been the minority party in the Senate for a majority of the last decade or so than an ideological desire to filibuster more. Filibusters are typically a minority tactic because the majority party shouldn't need to filibuster since they can just dismiss legislation with nay votes.
The same week that Trump indicated he still believes that the Central Park 5 were guilty (and, presumably should be executed according to the ad he took out at the time) despite subsequent DNA evidence excluding them and matching a man that confessed to the rape in 2002, despite their exoneration, and despite a $41 million settlement. That's horrible, and seems to reinforce the attack that by "law and order" he means go after the minorities.
Meanwhile, HRC is encouraging Florida to extend voter registration deadlines in light of the incoming storm. Will be interesting to see the response.
The same week that Trump indicated he still believes that the Central Park 5 were guilty (and, presumably should be executed according to the ad he took out at the time) despite subsequent DNA evidence excluding them and matching a man that confessed to the rape in 2002, despite their exoneration, and despite a $41 million settlement. That's horrible, and seems to reinforce the attack that by "law and order" he means go after the minorities.
Meanwhile, HRC is encouraging Florida to extend voter registration deadlines in light of the incoming storm. Will be interesting to see the response.
Sorry...what?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
No. I'm old enough to remember the rancor back in H.W. Bush's run. (see... I'm old, but not Frazzled old! )
Romney WAS demonzied by the left during the election season. I've posted numerous examples of that back in 2012 on this very site. The conservative media hound him during the primary season, but once he was the candidate, they all rallied behind him.
McCain was emphatheticaly hammered by the left... and part of it was the Bush fatigue.
This isn't a *new* phenomenon. What *is* new, is the ubiquitous of social media that makes these things "louder" in a sense.
My point was that, in living memory decent GOP Presidential candidates were demonized in such a way, that the voters grew numb to those kinds of characterizations. Such that, using the same demonization techniques on Trump... it has fallen on deaf ears.
Three things: Firstly, I made a mistake when I said conservative pundits unfavorably compared Romney to Hillary. It was actually McCain they compared unfavorably to Hillary. That's what I get for posting at, like, 2 AM.
Secondly, I, too, am old enough to remember H.W. Bush's presidential run. Were there dirty advertisements deployed during the election (Willie Horton, anyone)...? Yes. Did people say mean things about both candidates? Yes. Were they occasionally mocked? Yes (Dukakis in a tank). But there was nowhere near the level of vitriol and insane rage that one sees in a contemporary election.
Thirdly, you use the word "demonize" a lot, but I think you are maybe not using it correctly, or you are exaggerating a tad. McCain, Romney, H.W. Bush and Dole were criticized, some of them quite a lot, but they were not demonized. Demonizing is something far stronger than mere criticism. Many people said a President McCain or a President Romney would be bad for America, but nobody worth listening to was saying either of them would *end* America. Even on the right, most of the criticism of Kerry (Swift Boat bullgak aside) was that he would be bad for America, not that he would destroy it. The criticism of both Obama and Hillary is of the "they will destroy America" kind. That is demonization. We've really only seen that since the 2000 election, first from the left regarding Dubya, and then from the right regarding anyone in politics with a 'D' after their name.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
It was fairly straightforward so maybe you should be more clear in what you are having trouble understanding about it.
central park five?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
It was fairly straightforward so maybe you should be more clear in what you are having trouble understanding about it.
central park five?
basically trump went on a witch hunt against innocent people again. and by innocent I mean innocent people trump assumed were guilty because of he's a massive racist. making their lives a living hell.
No. I'm old enough to remember the rancor back in H.W. Bush's run. (see... I'm old, but not Frazzled old! )
Romney WAS demonzied by the left during the election season. I've posted numerous examples of that back in 2012 on this very site. The conservative media hound him during the primary season, but once he was the candidate, they all rallied behind him.
McCain was emphatheticaly hammered by the left... and part of it was the Bush fatigue.
This isn't a *new* phenomenon. What *is* new, is the ubiquitous of social media that makes these things "louder" in a sense.
My point was that, in living memory decent GOP Presidential candidates were demonized in such a way, that the voters grew numb to those kinds of characterizations. Such that, using the same demonization techniques on Trump... it has fallen on deaf ears.
Three things: Firstly, I made a mistake when I said conservative pundits unfavorably compared Romney to Hillary. It was actually McCain they compared unfavorably to Hillary. That's what I get for posting at, like, 2 AM.
Secondly, I, too, am old enough to remember H.W. Bush's presidential run. Were there dirty advertisements deployed during the election (Willie Horton, anyone)...? Yes. Did people say mean things about both candidates? Yes. Were they occasionally mocked? Yes (Dukakis in a tank). But there was nowhere near the level of vitriol and insane rage that one sees in a contemporary election.
Thirdly, you use the word "demonize" a lot, but I think you are maybe not using it correctly, or you are exaggerating a tad. McCain, Romney, H.W. Bush and Dole were criticized, some of them quite a lot, but they were not demonized. Demonizing is something far stronger than mere criticism. Many people said a President McCain or a President Romney would be bad for America, but nobody worth listening to was saying either of them would *end* America. Even on the right, most of the criticism of Kerry (Swift Boat bullgak aside) was that he would be bad for America, not that he would destroy it. The criticism of both Obama and Hillary is of the "they will destroy America" kind. That is demonization. We've really only seen that since the 2000 election, first from the left regarding Dubya, and then from the right regarding anyone in politics with a 'D' after their name.
According to an ad by a pro-Obama Super PAC, Priorities USA, Romney was responsible for the cancer death of a worker’s wife who lost his job following a Bain Capital restructuring of his employer. The Obama campaign refused to condemn the ad even though the worker’s wife died five years after the plant closed, she still had her own health insurance after her husband lost his job, and Romney was no longer at Bain when this all occurred.
2. ‘Put y’all back in chains’
According to Joe Biden, Mitt Romney is seeking to reintroduce slavery to the nation. In remarks to an audience in Danville, Va., the gaffe-prone Biden let loose with a comment that had people questioning his mental capacity. “Romney wants to let the—he said in the first 100 days, he’s going to let the big banks once again write their own rules,” Biden sputtered. “Unchain Wall Street. They’re going to put y’all back in chains.”
3. Didn’t pay taxes for 10 years
According to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) “the word is out” that Romney didn’t pay any income taxes for ten years. Reid refused to name his source, saying, “I don’t think the burden should be on me. The burden should be on him. He’s the one I’ve alleged has not paid any taxes.” He even brought Romney’s dead father into his smear, saying, “His poor father must be so embarrassed about his son.”
4. Romney is a ‘felon’
Obama Deputy Campaign Manager Stephanie Cutter told reporters in July that Romney likely committed a felony regarding his departure from Bain Capital. “Either Mitt Romney, through his own words and his own signature, was misrepresenting his position at Bain to the SEC, which is a felony,” Cutter said. Considering Romney was running the 2002 Olympics during the time in question, what part of “leave of absence” does Cutter not understand?
5. High school bullying
The Washington Post reached back some 50 years to find examples of Romney being a bully in high school. The media went on a feeding frenzy, as if Romney was guilty of a crime against humanity. Headlines screamed, “Why the Romney bullying story matters” and “Romney’s empathy problem.” Had the media vetted certain 2008 presidential candidates with the same enthusiasm, we wouldn’t be in this mess today.
6. Death squads
The Huffington Post ran a story in early August that Romney founded Bain Capital in 1983 with money from Central American oligarchs who had bankrolled “right-wing death squads.” The left has been fantasizing about unsavory ties between Republicans and Latin America “oligarchs” ever since the Iran Contra affair.
7. Bain outsourcing
The day after the Obama campaign charged that Romney that he outsourced jobs while at Bain, the Washington Post came out with a breathless headline: “Romney’s Bain Capital invested in companies that moved jobs overseas.” The paper’s own fact-checker later walked back the accusation, as any Bain outsourcing came after Romney left the firm.
8. Ann’s horse
The media lapped up the revelation that Ann Romney owned a horse that earned a spot on the U.S. Olympic equestrian team as it fit nicely with the theme that Mitt Romney is an out-of-touch elitist. The DNC even used footage of Ann’s horse Rafalca prancing in an ad attacking Romney for “dancing around” the release of his tax records. It turned out that Mrs. Romney had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and horseback riding was therapeutic in easing her condition.
9. Mormonism
The media is starting to portray Romney’s Mormonism as plain weird. Of course to most of the mainstream media, any display of religious faith is alien. Never mind that the same group of editors and reporters didn’t find it newsworthy in 2008 that Barack Obama sat for decades in the pew of a church with an American-hating pastor.
10. Wealth
Romney’s wealth fits right into Obama’s strategy of turning the race into a class-warfare campaign as he constantly attacks the rich. The Obama campaign is pushing hard for Romney to release his tax records, hoping in his maze of financial records there is something to spin, and is making wild claims about secret Cayman Island accounts. One thing we do know about Romney’s tax records: His charitable giving puts the Democratic ticket to shame.
Those are simply criticisms?
If so, you & I have different definitions of what we meant by 'demonized'.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/06 23:20:49
No. I'm old enough to remember the rancor back in H.W. Bush's run. (see... I'm old, but not Frazzled old! )
Romney WAS demonzied by the left during the election season. I've posted numerous examples of that back in 2012 on this very site. The conservative media hound him during the primary season, but once he was the candidate, they all rallied behind him.
McCain was emphatheticaly hammered by the left... and part of it was the Bush fatigue.
This isn't a *new* phenomenon. What *is* new, is the ubiquitous of social media that makes these things "louder" in a sense.
My point was that, in living memory decent GOP Presidential candidates were demonized in such a way, that the voters grew numb to those kinds of characterizations. Such that, using the same demonization techniques on Trump... it has fallen on deaf ears.
Three things: Firstly, I made a mistake when I said conservative pundits unfavorably compared Romney to Hillary. It was actually McCain they compared unfavorably to Hillary. That's what I get for posting at, like, 2 AM.
Secondly, I, too, am old enough to remember H.W. Bush's presidential run. Were there dirty advertisements deployed during the election (Willie Horton, anyone)...? Yes. Did people say mean things about both candidates? Yes. Were they occasionally mocked? Yes (Dukakis in a tank). But there was nowhere near the level of vitriol and insane rage that one sees in a contemporary election.
Thirdly, you use the word "demonize" a lot, but I think you are maybe not using it correctly, or you are exaggerating a tad. McCain, Romney, H.W. Bush and Dole were criticized, some of them quite a lot, but they were not demonized. Demonizing is something far stronger than mere criticism. Many people said a President McCain or a President Romney would be bad for America, but nobody worth listening to was saying either of them would *end* America. Even on the right, most of the criticism of Kerry (Swift Boat bullgak aside) was that he would be bad for America, not that he would destroy it. The criticism of both Obama and Hillary is of the "they will destroy America" kind. That is demonization. We've really only seen that since the 2000 election, first from the left regarding Dubya, and then from the right regarding anyone in politics with a 'D' after their name.
According to an ad by a pro-Obama Super PAC, Priorities USA, Romney was responsible for the cancer death of a worker’s wife who lost his job following a Bain Capital restructuring of his employer. The Obama campaign refused to condemn the ad even though the worker’s wife died five years after the plant closed, she still had her own health insurance after her husband lost his job, and Romney was no longer at Bain when this all occurred.
2. ‘Put y’all back in chains’
According to Joe Biden, Mitt Romney is seeking to reintroduce slavery to the nation. In remarks to an audience in Danville, Va., the gaffe-prone Biden let loose with a comment that had people questioning his mental capacity. “Romney wants to let the—he said in the first 100 days, he’s going to let the big banks once again write their own rules,” Biden sputtered. “Unchain Wall Street. They’re going to put y’all back in chains.”
3. Didn’t pay taxes for 10 years
According to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) “the word is out” that Romney didn’t pay any income taxes for ten years. Reid refused to name his source, saying, “I don’t think the burden should be on me. The burden should be on him. He’s the one I’ve alleged has not paid any taxes.” He even brought Romney’s dead father into his smear, saying, “His poor father must be so embarrassed about his son.”
4. Romney is a ‘felon’
Obama Deputy Campaign Manager Stephanie Cutter told reporters in July that Romney likely committed a felony regarding his departure from Bain Capital. “Either Mitt Romney, through his own words and his own signature, was misrepresenting his position at Bain to the SEC, which is a felony,” Cutter said. Considering Romney was running the 2002 Olympics during the time in question, what part of “leave of absence” does Cutter not understand?
5. High school bullying
The Washington Post reached back some 50 years to find examples of Romney being a bully in high school. The media went on a feeding frenzy, as if Romney was guilty of a crime against humanity. Headlines screamed, “Why the Romney bullying story matters” and “Romney’s empathy problem.” Had the media vetted certain 2008 presidential candidates with the same enthusiasm, we wouldn’t be in this mess today.
6. Death squads
The Huffington Post ran a story in early August that Romney founded Bain Capital in 1983 with money from Central American oligarchs who had bankrolled “right-wing death squads.” The left has been fantasizing about unsavory ties between Republicans and Latin America “oligarchs” ever since the Iran Contra affair.
7. Bain outsourcing
The day after the Obama campaign charged that Romney that he outsourced jobs while at Bain, the Washington Post came out with a breathless headline: “Romney’s Bain Capital invested in companies that moved jobs overseas.” The paper’s own fact-checker later walked back the accusation, as any Bain outsourcing came after Romney left the firm.
8. Ann’s horse
The media lapped up the revelation that Ann Romney owned a horse that earned a spot on the U.S. Olympic equestrian team as it fit nicely with the theme that Mitt Romney is an out-of-touch elitist. The DNC even used footage of Ann’s horse Rafalca prancing in an ad attacking Romney for “dancing around” the release of his tax records. It turned out that Mrs. Romney had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and horseback riding was therapeutic in easing her condition.
9. Mormonism
The media is starting to portray Romney’s Mormonism as plain weird. Of course to most of the mainstream media, any display of religious faith is alien. Never mind that the same group of editors and reporters didn’t find it newsworthy in 2008 that Barack Obama sat for decades in the pew of a church with an American-hating pastor.
10. Wealth
Romney’s wealth fits right into Obama’s strategy of turning the race into a class-warfare campaign as he constantly attacks the rich. The Obama campaign is pushing hard for Romney to release his tax records, hoping in his maze of financial records there is something to spin, and is making wild claims about secret Cayman Island accounts. One thing we do know about Romney’s tax records: His charitable giving puts the Democratic ticket to shame.
Those are simply criticisms?
If so, you & I have different definitions of what we meant by 'demonized'.
well #4 was definity true so that would be a criticism, and #9 we heard all about obamas pastor, that did make the headlines.
but other than that with the smear campaigns getting worse every year and anyone being able to buy commericals with no money trail, all of that is just normal election stuff.
According to an ad by a pro-Obama Super PAC, Priorities USA, Romney was responsible for the cancer death of a worker’s wife who lost his job following a Bain Capital restructuring of his employer. The Obama campaign refused to condemn the ad even though the worker’s wife died five years after the plant closed, she still had her own health insurance after her husband lost his job, and Romney was no longer at Bain when this all occurred.
2. ‘Put y’all back in chains’
According to Joe Biden, Mitt Romney is seeking to reintroduce slavery to the nation. In remarks to an audience in Danville, Va., the gaffe-prone Biden let loose with a comment that had people questioning his mental capacity. “Romney wants to let the—he said in the first 100 days, he’s going to let the big banks once again write their own rules,” Biden sputtered. “Unchain Wall Street. They’re going to put y’all back in chains.”
3. Didn’t pay taxes for 10 years
According to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) “the word is out” that Romney didn’t pay any income taxes for ten years. Reid refused to name his source, saying, “I don’t think the burden should be on me. The burden should be on him. He’s the one I’ve alleged has not paid any taxes.” He even brought Romney’s dead father into his smear, saying, “His poor father must be so embarrassed about his son.”
4. Romney is a ‘felon’
Obama Deputy Campaign Manager Stephanie Cutter told reporters in July that Romney likely committed a felony regarding his departure from Bain Capital. “Either Mitt Romney, through his own words and his own signature, was misrepresenting his position at Bain to the SEC, which is a felony,” Cutter said. Considering Romney was running the 2002 Olympics during the time in question, what part of “leave of absence” does Cutter not understand?
5. High school bullying
The Washington Post reached back some 50 years to find examples of Romney being a bully in high school. The media went on a feeding frenzy, as if Romney was guilty of a crime against humanity. Headlines screamed, “Why the Romney bullying story matters” and “Romney’s empathy problem.” Had the media vetted certain 2008 presidential candidates with the same enthusiasm, we wouldn’t be in this mess today.
6. Death squads
The Huffington Post ran a story in early August that Romney founded Bain Capital in 1983 with money from Central American oligarchs who had bankrolled “right-wing death squads.” The left has been fantasizing about unsavory ties between Republicans and Latin America “oligarchs” ever since the Iran Contra affair.
7. Bain outsourcing
The day after the Obama campaign charged that Romney that he outsourced jobs while at Bain, the Washington Post came out with a breathless headline: “Romney’s Bain Capital invested in companies that moved jobs overseas.” The paper’s own fact-checker later walked back the accusation, as any Bain outsourcing came after Romney left the firm.
8. Ann’s horse
The media lapped up the revelation that Ann Romney owned a horse that earned a spot on the U.S. Olympic equestrian team as it fit nicely with the theme that Mitt Romney is an out-of-touch elitist. The DNC even used footage of Ann’s horse Rafalca prancing in an ad attacking Romney for “dancing around” the release of his tax records. It turned out that Mrs. Romney had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and horseback riding was therapeutic in easing her condition.
9. Mormonism
The media is starting to portray Romney’s Mormonism as plain weird. Of course to most of the mainstream media, any display of religious faith is alien. Never mind that the same group of editors and reporters didn’t find it newsworthy in 2008 that Barack Obama sat for decades in the pew of a church with an American-hating pastor.
10. Wealth
Romney’s wealth fits right into Obama’s strategy of turning the race into a class-warfare campaign as he constantly attacks the rich. The Obama campaign is pushing hard for Romney to release his tax records, hoping in his maze of financial records there is something to spin, and is making wild claims about secret Cayman Island accounts. One thing we do know about Romney’s tax records: His charitable giving puts the Democratic ticket to shame.
Those are simply criticisms?
If so, you & I have different definitions of what we meant by 'demonized'.
If that truly is the best "Top Ten" that you could find, it's rather telling that I only ever heard of four of them (3, 8, 9, 10).
Anyway, I ask you this: of this year's crop of GOP candidates for president, which of them would have shown the same level of decency and respect as McCain did?
Spoiler:
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
It was fairly straightforward so maybe you should be more clear in what you are having trouble understanding about it.
central park five?
Five teens (between 14 and 16) were wrongful accused and convicted of gang rape. The police are reported to have intimidated them into confessing to a crime they did not commit. They were later exonerated when the perpetrator (who was serving a life sentence) admitted to it, and DNA deviance proved it at such. They got a large cash settlement form NYC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Park_jogger_case http://www.nydailynews.com/services/central-park-five
ulgurstasta wrote: I do agree that people should take action, but it´s not so simple. You dont build an organization over night, that takes time and effort, especially in the US political system where the two main parties hold such enormous power.
Time and effort are no barrier when the cause really matters. There are countless political causes where members didn't just have to put in effort, but faced ortracization, exile, imprisonment and death, yet people worked for that cause for generations. Its because the cause was all important, it was essential to basic liberty and equality.
In the US, time and effort are real barriers because the cause is so minor.
I´m all for the people getting active, but this isn´t a problem you can solve by complaining about people voting for the wrong people, as the people dont have any choice in what candidates they get to vote for in the first place! It requires serious work and dedication to organize in such a way that you can change the system in a meaningful way.
No, the people chose the candidates. That's what the primaries are all about. And you might complain that the parties control who runs in the primaries but Trump is pretty clear evidence that the parties have no such control. Clinton and Trump were chosen by the people.
What we're seeing, I think, is people starting to develop an idea that a candidate must exactly match everything they personally want in a candidate, or otherwise the system is horrible and broken and needs to be reformed. But politics isn't Starbucks, you don't get to customize to make it soy milk, and add pumpkin spice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sirlynchmob wrote: no kidding, the 3rd parties have been trying since perot. but it's amazing how people are so entrenched in the 2 parties owned by the 1% they don't even realize they still have the power, and they're rather vote for the banks candidates instead of the other parties. this should be the year for the 3rd parties, let's end the insanity.
Two things - the presidential election is not the place to build a new party. This is like deciding your first game of football should be as a starting quarterback in the superbowl.
Second up, people maybe need to start considering that maybe the major parties get most of the vote because they address more relevant issues than minor parties?
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Frazzled wrote: There's enough blame to go around. We have two entrenched parties that have legally manipulated the structures to their advantage (for example-the debates only featuring them, gee maybe its because the commission only and D and Rs).
Your example is terrible. Anyone person that gets 15% of the vote gets on the debate stage. The reason Johnson and Stein didn't make it is because they couldn't get 15% of people to say they'd vote for them. That isn't a problem with the system, it's a problem for Johnson and Stein because they can't get any more than a small minority of people to say they'll vote for them.
SLightly differnt bent but I find this article particularly cogent on why Trump is popular. Both parties have in many ways forgotten the working class. At the "end of the day" we may be seeing the birth of a powerful worker's party. If Sander's basement dwellers and Trump's laid off factory workers get together they could run the table on both parties.
If Trump voters were actually the laid off workers that his PR machine claims, you might be on to something. But polling has shown time and again that Trump supporters earn higher than the national median wage. They aren't the economically disaffected people that lots of people have assumed (myself included for a long time). They are culturally disaffected.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/07 01:53:49
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
sebster wrote: What we're seeing, I think, is people starting to develop an idea that a candidate must exactly match everything they personally want in a candidate, or otherwise the system is horrible and broken and needs to be reformed. But politics isn't Starbucks, you don't get to customize to make it soy milk, and add pumpkin spice.
Absolutely this. Somewhere along the line many people forgot that voting for a candidate meant you were compromising at least some of your values -- there's no way you agree with that candidate on everything. But now we have individuals who have to create this false identity to even have a hope of election. People complain that good candidates don't run, and they're right. The part that's being missed is that we are as much at fault as the politicians themselves in creating that problem. Sure the issue can't be solved overnight but if US voters decided tomorrow they were going to vote based on facts and history rather than following their media/party bias of choice then we'd see a completely different country within 10 years.
Polonius wrote: For all of the conservative complaints about the direction of this country, it's important to remember that they control the congress, held a majority of SCOTUS until Scalia's death, and control the majority of State Houses and governerships.
Outside of the White House, the GOP runs this country.
This is also something to remember when people* talk about the decline of the Republican party. The GOP has got all kinds of problems with future demographics - get a list of demographics that Republicans do best in, and a list of declining demographic groups, and the lists are the same. But right now it isn't showing up in electoral results. Republicans are winning more than their share of elections, because they do so well at getting their declining base out to vote. This is a particular advantage in mid-terms.
I mean, this year they've got Donald fething Trump as their candidate, and they've still managed to convince all of their voting groups to get behind. They've got 80% of evangelicals to support the adulterous, twice divorced, candidate who couldn't name a bible verse, and said he's never asked for forgiveness because he'd never done anything wrong. That's amazing.
*And by people I mean me
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whembly wrote: This is beyond ridiculous. Clinton's email scandal is nothing like those previous events. By the way, there were all recovered.
Oh, so if emails are recovered then there was nothing wrong with deleting them in the first place. Okay then.
It wasn't even a scandal.
Nine senior staff including the Attorney General resigned over the issue. I know you said above you don't believe your opinions are reality, but maybe you should look to include some reality in your opinions
Extremely minor in comparison?
Yes, setting up a private email server to skirt around transparency laws is quite minor compared to ordering DoJ officials to fund dirt on the other side of politics, and firing them if they don't come back with the good stuff.
This is a fething obvious thing.
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gorgon wrote: EVENTUALLY, the GOP will make course corrections. They'll have to. And I don't think it'll be as monumental a task as some believe.
It depends how you look at it. In terms of actually changing their policies, Republicans won't have to change much. Most of the really harmful stuff is actually just signalling stuff, not real policy goals.
But I think actually making those changes will be much harder than you think. Because it will require politicians taking significant personal risk, in order to do something that will benefit the party in the long term. Very few people are able to make those decisions.
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whembly wrote: This isn't a *new* phenomenon. What *is* new, is the ubiquitous of social media that makes these things "louder" in a sense.
No political party will ever have a monopoly on gakky politics. What marks the Republican party as different is the absence of anything but gakky politics. There is no constructive agenda. There is just hatred for the democrats, and a pie in the sky tax plan.
This is not good, and it isn't going to get better until loyal party members like yourself recognise this, and start to demand something better from your party.
You're probably right about that. I meant to specifically refer to those people who are protest voting 3rd party because "both are equally as bad" (they're not)
I suspect those people will talk in great detail how it isn't their fault because they voted for Johnson/Stein. Then they won't even notice when the mid-terms happen, and four years from now they'll find some new reason to claim they are pure for removing themselves from being a useful part of the democratic system.
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Prestor Jon wrote: Republicans using the filibuster more often recently probably has more to do with the fact that they have been the minority party in the Senate for a majority of the last decade or so than an ideological desire to filibuster more.
No, Republicans have used them more per session than Democrats have used them per session when they've been in minority. So it isn't just the length of time as the minority.
That said, the count of filibuster is still an imperfect measure, because use of the filibuster is dependent on both the minority willing to filibuster, and the majority party putting up legislation that will get filibustered. Honestly, I think the increase in filibuster is more related to the 24 hour news cycle. Back in the day a filibuster would have been a page 5 item in the Washington Post, it wouldn't have been worth the effort just for the political show. But these days there's 24 hour coverage of the mechanics of government, everything is political theatre, and so putting up a bill you know the other side will filibuster shows your side you're fighting for their special causes, while filibustering allows the other side to show it's fighting the good fight as well.
Actually figuring out who is to blame for the obstructionism requires sitting down and actually looking at the nuts and bolts of who has done what. For my money, the side that put out memos saying 'our plan is to obstruct everything', and who has used government shutdown and the debt ceiling as measures to extort concessions is pretty obviously the side at fault, but I'm sure the conservatives on this board have different opinions.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/10/07 02:52:34
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
No. I'm old enough to remember the rancor back in H.W. Bush's run. (see... I'm old, but not Frazzled old! )
Romney WAS demonzied by the left during the election season. I've posted numerous examples of that back in 2012 on this very site. The conservative media hound him during the primary season, but once he was the candidate, they all rallied behind him.
McCain was emphatheticaly hammered by the left... and part of it was the Bush fatigue.
This isn't a *new* phenomenon. What *is* new, is the ubiquitous of social media that makes these things "louder" in a sense.
My point was that, in living memory decent GOP Presidential candidates were demonized in such a way, that the voters grew numb to those kinds of characterizations. Such that, using the same demonization techniques on Trump... it has fallen on deaf ears.
Three things: Firstly, I made a mistake when I said conservative pundits unfavorably compared Romney to Hillary. It was actually McCain they compared unfavorably to Hillary. That's what I get for posting at, like, 2 AM.
Secondly, I, too, am old enough to remember H.W. Bush's presidential run. Were there dirty advertisements deployed during the election (Willie Horton, anyone)...? Yes. Did people say mean things about both candidates? Yes. Were they occasionally mocked? Yes (Dukakis in a tank). But there was nowhere near the level of vitriol and insane rage that one sees in a contemporary election.
Thirdly, you use the word "demonize" a lot, but I think you are maybe not using it correctly, or you are exaggerating a tad. McCain, Romney, H.W. Bush and Dole were criticized, some of them quite a lot, but they were not demonized. Demonizing is something far stronger than mere criticism. Many people said a President McCain or a President Romney would be bad for America, but nobody worth listening to was saying either of them would *end* America. Even on the right, most of the criticism of Kerry (Swift Boat bullgak aside) was that he would be bad for America, not that he would destroy it. The criticism of both Obama and Hillary is of the "they will destroy America" kind. That is demonization. We've really only seen that since the 2000 election, first from the left regarding Dubya, and then from the right regarding anyone in politics with a 'D' after their name.
According to an ad by a pro-Obama Super PAC, Priorities USA, Romney was responsible for the cancer death of a worker’s wife who lost his job following a Bain Capital restructuring of his employer. The Obama campaign refused to condemn the ad even though the worker’s wife died five years after the plant closed, she still had her own health insurance after her husband lost his job, and Romney was no longer at Bain when this all occurred.
2. ‘Put y’all back in chains’
According to Joe Biden, Mitt Romney is seeking to reintroduce slavery to the nation. In remarks to an audience in Danville, Va., the gaffe-prone Biden let loose with a comment that had people questioning his mental capacity. “Romney wants to let the—he said in the first 100 days, he’s going to let the big banks once again write their own rules,” Biden sputtered. “Unchain Wall Street. They’re going to put y’all back in chains.”
3. Didn’t pay taxes for 10 years
According to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) “the word is out” that Romney didn’t pay any income taxes for ten years. Reid refused to name his source, saying, “I don’t think the burden should be on me. The burden should be on him. He’s the one I’ve alleged has not paid any taxes.” He even brought Romney’s dead father into his smear, saying, “His poor father must be so embarrassed about his son.”
4. Romney is a ‘felon’
Obama Deputy Campaign Manager Stephanie Cutter told reporters in July that Romney likely committed a felony regarding his departure from Bain Capital. “Either Mitt Romney, through his own words and his own signature, was misrepresenting his position at Bain to the SEC, which is a felony,” Cutter said. Considering Romney was running the 2002 Olympics during the time in question, what part of “leave of absence” does Cutter not understand?
5. High school bullying
The Washington Post reached back some 50 years to find examples of Romney being a bully in high school. The media went on a feeding frenzy, as if Romney was guilty of a crime against humanity. Headlines screamed, “Why the Romney bullying story matters” and “Romney’s empathy problem.” Had the media vetted certain 2008 presidential candidates with the same enthusiasm, we wouldn’t be in this mess today.
6. Death squads
The Huffington Post ran a story in early August that Romney founded Bain Capital in 1983 with money from Central American oligarchs who had bankrolled “right-wing death squads.” The left has been fantasizing about unsavory ties between Republicans and Latin America “oligarchs” ever since the Iran Contra affair.
7. Bain outsourcing
The day after the Obama campaign charged that Romney that he outsourced jobs while at Bain, the Washington Post came out with a breathless headline: “Romney’s Bain Capital invested in companies that moved jobs overseas.” The paper’s own fact-checker later walked back the accusation, as any Bain outsourcing came after Romney left the firm.
8. Ann’s horse
The media lapped up the revelation that Ann Romney owned a horse that earned a spot on the U.S. Olympic equestrian team as it fit nicely with the theme that Mitt Romney is an out-of-touch elitist. The DNC even used footage of Ann’s horse Rafalca prancing in an ad attacking Romney for “dancing around” the release of his tax records. It turned out that Mrs. Romney had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and horseback riding was therapeutic in easing her condition.
9. Mormonism
The media is starting to portray Romney’s Mormonism as plain weird. Of course to most of the mainstream media, any display of religious faith is alien. Never mind that the same group of editors and reporters didn’t find it newsworthy in 2008 that Barack Obama sat for decades in the pew of a church with an American-hating pastor.
10. Wealth
Romney’s wealth fits right into Obama’s strategy of turning the race into a class-warfare campaign as he constantly attacks the rich. The Obama campaign is pushing hard for Romney to release his tax records, hoping in his maze of financial records there is something to spin, and is making wild claims about secret Cayman Island accounts. One thing we do know about Romney’s tax records: His charitable giving puts the Democratic ticket to shame.
Those are simply criticisms?
If so, you & I have different definitions of what we meant by 'demonized'.
well #4 was definity true so that would be a criticism, and #9 we heard all about obamas pastor, that did make the headlines.
but other than that with the smear campaigns getting worse every year and anyone being able to buy commericals with no money trail, all of that is just normal election stuff.
#7 is very true. I'm quite familiar with Bain.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
@Sebster
You make a good point about filibusters and the current 24 hour news cycle. Another relation between the two is that it's another avenue for the attention whores to get their spotlight. Even if it isn't about fighting the good fight, it's still a way for certain individuals to say "look at me!" so they can get even more exposure for themselves and their politics.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
According to an ad by a pro-Obama Super PAC, Priorities USA, Romney was responsible for the cancer death of a worker’s wife who lost his job following a Bain Capital restructuring of his employer. The Obama campaign refused to condemn the ad even though the worker’s wife died five years after the plant closed, she still had her own health insurance after her husband lost his job, and Romney was no longer at Bain when this all occurred.
2. ‘Put y’all back in chains’
According to Joe Biden, Mitt Romney is seeking to reintroduce slavery to the nation. In remarks to an audience in Danville, Va., the gaffe-prone Biden let loose with a comment that had people questioning his mental capacity. “Romney wants to let the—he said in the first 100 days, he’s going to let the big banks once again write their own rules,” Biden sputtered. “Unchain Wall Street. They’re going to put y’all back in chains.”
3. Didn’t pay taxes for 10 years
According to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) “the word is out” that Romney didn’t pay any income taxes for ten years. Reid refused to name his source, saying, “I don’t think the burden should be on me. The burden should be on him. He’s the one I’ve alleged has not paid any taxes.” He even brought Romney’s dead father into his smear, saying, “His poor father must be so embarrassed about his son.”
4. Romney is a ‘felon’
Obama Deputy Campaign Manager Stephanie Cutter told reporters in July that Romney likely committed a felony regarding his departure from Bain Capital. “Either Mitt Romney, through his own words and his own signature, was misrepresenting his position at Bain to the SEC, which is a felony,” Cutter said. Considering Romney was running the 2002 Olympics during the time in question, what part of “leave of absence” does Cutter not understand?
5. High school bullying
The Washington Post reached back some 50 years to find examples of Romney being a bully in high school. The media went on a feeding frenzy, as if Romney was guilty of a crime against humanity. Headlines screamed, “Why the Romney bullying story matters” and “Romney’s empathy problem.” Had the media vetted certain 2008 presidential candidates with the same enthusiasm, we wouldn’t be in this mess today.
6. Death squads
The Huffington Post ran a story in early August that Romney founded Bain Capital in 1983 with money from Central American oligarchs who had bankrolled “right-wing death squads.” The left has been fantasizing about unsavory ties between Republicans and Latin America “oligarchs” ever since the Iran Contra affair.
7. Bain outsourcing
The day after the Obama campaign charged that Romney that he outsourced jobs while at Bain, the Washington Post came out with a breathless headline: “Romney’s Bain Capital invested in companies that moved jobs overseas.” The paper’s own fact-checker later walked back the accusation, as any Bain outsourcing came after Romney left the firm.
8. Ann’s horse
The media lapped up the revelation that Ann Romney owned a horse that earned a spot on the U.S. Olympic equestrian team as it fit nicely with the theme that Mitt Romney is an out-of-touch elitist. The DNC even used footage of Ann’s horse Rafalca prancing in an ad attacking Romney for “dancing around” the release of his tax records. It turned out that Mrs. Romney had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis and horseback riding was therapeutic in easing her condition.
9. Mormonism
The media is starting to portray Romney’s Mormonism as plain weird. Of course to most of the mainstream media, any display of religious faith is alien. Never mind that the same group of editors and reporters didn’t find it newsworthy in 2008 that Barack Obama sat for decades in the pew of a church with an American-hating pastor.
10. Wealth
Romney’s wealth fits right into Obama’s strategy of turning the race into a class-warfare campaign as he constantly attacks the rich. The Obama campaign is pushing hard for Romney to release his tax records, hoping in his maze of financial records there is something to spin, and is making wild claims about secret Cayman Island accounts. One thing we do know about Romney’s tax records: His charitable giving puts the Democratic ticket to shame.[/spoiler]
Those are simply criticisms?
Of everything you posted here, only #2 counts as "demonizing". Everything else on here was either a standard political attack that you always see during an election, always (#1,3,5,7,8,10) a muckraking political attack trying to connect the candidate to felonious actions or people who are felons (which is dirty, but has also been a part of elections since elections were invented (#4 &6) or a non-campaign thing that appeared in the media because it was "new" (#9). Obama didn't attack Romney because of his Mormonism and the media didn't attack him over it either. But he was the first Mormon candidate, so a lot of people talked about Mormonism and what it was and how it would/could shape Romney's outlook. It was only different in how every candidate's faith gets talked about every election only in that people were talking about Mormonism, a religion a lot of people in this country don't know very much about. Some of the talking heads may have drawn negative conclusions about Mormonism, but none of the news outlets I saw claimed that Mormonism made Romney unfit for the Presidency.
So... just a comment from Joe Biden that Romney would re-enslave black people. That was the only demonizing attack from the democrats in 2012 that you posted. And considering that Joe Biden said it, I stand by my earlier declaration that nobody worth listening to demonized Romney.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
And, shocking absolutely no one, Florida Gov. Rick Scott says he will not extend the deadline for voter registration in the state despite concerns over the impact of Hurricane Matthew. He had previously ordered evacuation saying that the storm "will kill you."
“I’m not going to extend it,” Scott said during a press conference Thursday evening. “Everybody’s had a lot of time to register. On top of that, we have lots of opportunities to vote, early voting and absentee voting, so I don’t intend to make any changes.”
Well that and a study that showed that there tended to be last minute pushes for registration, and those registrations tend to be largely Democrats.
South Carolina, which the storm also is forecast to hit, has already extended its voter registration deadline. They also have a Republican governor, but one with something resembling a shred of humanity.
jmurph wrote: And, shocking absolutely no one, Florida Gov. Rick Scott says he will not extend the deadline for voter registration in the state despite concerns over the impact of Hurricane Matthew. He had previously ordered evacuation saying that the storm "will kill you."
“I’m not going to extend it,” Scott said during a press conference Thursday evening. “Everybody’s had a lot of time to register. On top of that, we have lots of opportunities to vote, early voting and absentee voting, so I don’t intend to make any changes.”
Well that and a study that showed that there tended to be last minute pushes for registration, and those registrations tend to be largely Democrats.
South Carolina, which the storm also is forecast to hit, has already extended its voter registration deadline. They also have a Republican governor, but one with something resembling a shred of humanity.
Ah, Florida. The land of the dangling chads. Just keeping the POTUS election drama alive.
Tannhauser42 wrote: @Sebster
You make a good point about filibusters and the current 24 hour news cycle. Another relation between the two is that it's another avenue for the attention whores to get their spotlight. Even if it isn't about fighting the good fight, it's still a way for certain individuals to say "look at me!" so they can get even more exposure for themselves and their politics.
Agreed. When you look at the GOP senators in the primary, Rubio, Cruz and Paul they all participated in filibusters that got a lot of coverage on cable news networks. That's probably not a coincidence.
It figures that after I publicly lost confidence in Hillary, Trump puts together a bad week or two and backslides badly. Maybe I should do the country and world a favor and predict Trump in a landslide. Another issue for Trump is that early voting has begun during a time when Clinton is riding a crest.
I do think Hillary could lose some ground again after these debates, however. Too many people -- including a lot of people planning to vote for her -- just don't like her. And I still don't think she's made the case for herself very well. It's only because Trump is an historically bad candidate that running as "not the other guy" can be successful. In a normal election, you have to make the case for why YOU should be POTUS. See Kerry, John.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/07 20:31:40
Spinner wrote: I'm not a huge fan of the monster clown analogy (appropriate as the words are to describe Trump...) If I can bring up the one thing more disappointing than this election cycle, I think a better comparison might involve the Star Wars prequel movies.
Clinton's got a bit of a Valorum vibe going; lots of high-profile mud-slinging from opponents, ties to the bureaucratic establishment, very strongly for business as usual politics, opposed by someone who touts himself as a strong man in a difficult time. Not particularly popular with a lot of people, but in hindsight would almost certainly be way, waaaay better than her opponent.
squidhills wrote: So... just a comment from Joe Biden that Romney would re-enslave black people. That was the only demonizing attack from the democrats in 2012 that you posted. And considering that Joe Biden said it, I stand by my earlier declaration that nobody worth listening to demonized Romney.
If anyone in that quote was 'demonized' it was Biden as it is fairly obvious from context, and words, that he never said that Southern style slavery was going to be reintroduced but metaphorical economic slavery. Taking a comment about economic slavery and spinning it to make the speaker sound like they are accusing someone of reintroducing chattel slavery is both stupid and mean spirited. So par for the course with some political strategists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/07 20:48:10
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
) If I can bring up the one thing more disappointing than this election cycle, I think a better comparison might involve the Star Wars prequel movies.
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
