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Ultimately Russia's actions are largely to distract the internal audience from domestic issues, the effect on relations with other nations being a distant secondary concern. The Russian government is facing economic disaster and budgetary shortfalls for years. Russia is overly reliant on resource exports, making her hugely vulnerable to market moods and commodity pricing swings. Russia produces little in the way of manufactured goods or services for export to the rest of the world for a power of her size (and particularly little that isnt of a military nature), and has the export base of a developing nation, ultimately meaning she has to import, steal or license things like microprocessors and other cutting edge electronics and devices. These are issues Russia is having to contend with, and its easier to distract the population from that by causing international ruckuses and claiming to be the victim than having to directly confront those issues as Putin's regime likely would not survive that. As such, US policy avenues are limited, as anything we do will not be the primary factor in the Russian decisonmaking process.

 BigWaaagh wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
In this thread, we argue that we need to vote for Donald Trump because it's important to preserve American Jurisprudence.

In other news, today Donald Trump argued that the lawyers who represented Hillary Clinton also need to go to jail.

I mean, what the actual feth can you even say to someone who can reconcile those 2 ideas?

Mostly I just feel sad, because this is so terribly embarrassing, like watching someone who gak their pants and doesn't even realize it.

I find it even sadder that his supporters continually look at said self-gakked pants and say, "Those are lovely! I want a pair!"

ya there seems to be no limit to the depths his supporters will sink to. Trending today #repealthe19th Because without the womens vote trump would win.

Clearly trump has so much respect for women, he just wants to end their suffrage.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The thing is, Russia doesn't have to be our foe. In fact, you want to know one of the reasons why they're our foe? Because the GOP has told you they are, because having a boogeyman has always been useful for politics, because when a big chunk of the US government keeps saying you are the enemy and won't treat you fairly, what reason do you have to be friends?. Maybe we wouldn't be in the situation we are now if we actually engaged with Russia, rather than having an entire political party continually trash them.

What? Russia has engaged in wars of expansion in breach of international law. They have recently committed war crimes in order to dismantle peace deals so that their man in Syria can resume killing civilian populations loyal to the resistance. Russia should be actively and aggressively opposed as long as they continue to be a negative actor on the world stage.

This doesn't mean forever war against Russia, of course, and they should always be given opportunity and reason to change their behaviour and return to the international community. But their current status has nothing to do with Republican doctrine or Obama decisions, and everything to do with Putin's actions in Ukraine and Syria.

.

Aaaaand, you completely missed the point. The point being that things didn't have to get this far, if we actually cared about trying international diplomacy rather than just building up political boogeymen to scare the voters with.

To be frank I am with Sebster on this point.

Russia has engaged in a series of international military affairs including the "anti-terrorist" war in Grozny, the annexation of the Crimea, shooting down a passenger jet, and the war crime of bombing a humanitarian aid convoy in Syria, as well as supporting the war crimes of the Syrian government.

On top of that are the cyber incursions of the US political process, intended to bias the election result in Russia's favour.

There is also the mysterious murder of a Russian journalist in London by the use of radioactive Polonium.

We could also look at Russian internal affairs, which are their own business until they infringe on human rights, such as freedom of sexuality (the current repression of homosexuals.)

Let's not kid ourselves that the Russians are just mis-understood OK Guys that our government is setting up for a bogeyman. We've got a real bogeyman in the form of ISIL and the GWoT to worry about already.

And my point is still being missed. Since I clearly didn't articulate myself well enough to get it understood after two attempts, it's probably best to move on from this tangent, because i don't think a third try will work, either.

It seems like this election is going to be a good example of just how far some people will go to justify their team's choice.

radioactive Polonius

I think we have created a new comic book.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 BigWaaagh wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
In this thread, we argue that we need to vote for Donald Trump because it's important to preserve American Jurisprudence.

In other news, today Donald Trump argued that the lawyers who represented Hillary Clinton also need to go to jail.

I mean, what the actual feth can you even say to someone who can reconcile those 2 ideas?

Mostly I just feel sad, because this is so terribly embarrassing, like watching someone who gak their pants and doesn't even realize it.

I find it even sadder that his supporters continually look at said self-gakked pants and say, "Those are lovely! I want a pair!"

ya there seems to be no limit to the depths his supporters will sink to. Trending today #repealthe19th Because without the womens vote trump would win.

Clearly trump has so much respect for women, he just wants to end their suffrage.

"Yes, my businesses are filled with sexual harassment. I've been accused of sexual harassment. But you have to realize, this is some of the best sexual harassment in the world. Top notch sexual harassment. You're gonna love our sexual harassment. It's the best."

And this guy is going to give us the better scotus pick. There should be gold medals for mental gymnastics and leaps of logic.

 curran12 wrote:
And this guy is going to give us the better scotus pick. There should be gold medals for mental gymnastics and leaps of logic.

Well obviously the 19th Amendment is just the price that must be paid to protect the 2nd from Hillary Clinton. [/sarcasm]

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The thing is, Russia doesn't have to be our foe. In fact, you want to know one of the reasons why they're our foe? Because the GOP has told you they are, because having a boogeyman has always been useful for politics, because when a big chunk of the US government keeps saying you are the enemy and won't treat you fairly, what reason do you have to be friends?. Maybe we wouldn't be in the situation we are now if we actually engaged with Russia, rather than having an entire political party continually trash them.

What? Russia has engaged in wars of expansion in breach of international law. They have recently committed war crimes in order to dismantle peace deals so that their man in Syria can resume killing civilian populations loyal to the resistance. Russia should be actively and aggressively opposed as long as they continue to be a negative actor on the world stage.

This doesn't mean forever war against Russia, of course, and they should always be given opportunity and reason to change their behaviour and return to the international community. But their current status has nothing to do with Republican doctrine or Obama decisions, and everything to do with Putin's actions in Ukraine and Syria.

.

Aaaaand, you completely missed the point. The point being that things didn't have to get this far, if we actually cared about trying international diplomacy rather than just building up political boogeymen to scare the voters with.

To be frank I am with Sebster on this point.

Russia has engaged in a series of international military affairs including the "anti-terrorist" war in Grozny, the annexation of the Crimea, shooting down a passenger jet, and the war crime of bombing a humanitarian aid convoy in Syria, as well as supporting the war crimes of the Syrian government.

On top of that are the cyber incursions of the US political process, intended to bias the election result in Russia's favour.

There is also the mysterious murder of a Russian journalist in London by the use of radioactive Polonium.

We could also look at Russian internal affairs, which are their own business until they infringe on human rights, such as freedom of sexuality (the current repression of homosexuals.)

Let's not kid ourselves that the Russians are just mis-understood OK Guys that our government is setting up for a bogeyman. We've got a real bogeyman in the form of ISIL and the GWoT to worry about already.

And my point is still being missed. Since I clearly didn't articulate myself well enough to get it understood after two attempts, it's probably best to move on from this tangent, because i don't think a third try will work, either.

Perhaps there is no "meeting of minds".

It seems to me that you consider that Russia is being demonised as a new "culture enemy" to replace the lost Soviet Union of the cold war. There is some value in this viewpoint, however the GWoT is now considered to fill that slot in the political spectrum.

Russia as a nation state acts on the world stage and is involved in diplomacy in the normal manner, and is throwing its weight around internationally and domestically in ways that conflict with western values and long term political objectives.

What I mean to say is that Russia genuinely does invade other countries, murder political opponents abroad, commit war crimes in support of allies, etc and at the very least opposes western liberal values of democracy and the rule of law and so on. If you wanted to confect a bogeyman from nothing, you do not have to use Russia, because Russia genuinely exhibits various "bogeyman" behaviours.

Despite all the above, the west does not simply outlaw Russia as a pariah nation. We don't really do that to anyone, not even North Korea. The west engages diplomatically with Russia in many ways, ranging from trade agreements to the GATT, G7, UN and so on. The most recent example being the quickly defunct ceasefire agreement in Syria.

If I have mistaken your thoughts on the issue I would be be glad to hear them again.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The thing is, Russia doesn't have to be our foe. In fact, you want to know one of the reasons why they're our foe? Because the GOP has told you they are, because having a boogeyman has always been useful for politics, because when a big chunk of the US government keeps saying you are the enemy and won't treat you fairly, what reason do you have to be friends?. Maybe we wouldn't be in the situation we are now if we actually engaged with Russia, rather than having an entire political party continually trash them.

What? Russia has engaged in wars of expansion in breach of international law. They have recently committed war crimes in order to dismantle peace deals so that their man in Syria can resume killing civilian populations loyal to the resistance. Russia should be actively and aggressively opposed as long as they continue to be a negative actor on the world stage.

This doesn't mean forever war against Russia, of course, and they should always be given opportunity and reason to change their behaviour and return to the international community. But their current status has nothing to do with Republican doctrine or Obama decisions, and everything to do with Putin's actions in Ukraine and Syria.

.

Aaaaand, you completely missed the point. The point being that things didn't have to get this far, if we actually cared about trying international diplomacy rather than just building up political boogeymen to scare the voters with.

To be frank I am with Sebster on this point.

Russia has engaged in a series of international military affairs including the "anti-terrorist" war in Grozny, the annexation of the Crimea, shooting down a passenger jet, and the war crime of bombing a humanitarian aid convoy in Syria, as well as supporting the war crimes of the Syrian government.

On top of that are the cyber incursions of the US political process, intended to bias the election result in Russia's favour.

There is also the mysterious murder of a Russian journalist in London by the use of radioactive Polonium.

We could also look at Russian internal affairs, which are their own business until they infringe on human rights, such as freedom of sexuality (the current repression of homosexuals.)

Let's not kid ourselves that the Russians are just mis-understood OK Guys that our government is setting up for a bogeyman. We've got a real bogeyman in the form of ISIL and the GWoT to worry about already.

And my point is still being missed. Since I clearly didn't articulate myself well enough to get it understood after two attempts, it's probably best to move on from this tangent, because i don't think a third try will work, either.

Your point is a little silly.

You were essentially blaming the GOP for unreasonably labeling Russia as some serious geo-political foe.

Mine/Seb/KK's point was that Russia has always been an entity that does warrant scrutiny and care.... not because the GOP "built up a boogeyman".

EDIT: damn... ninja'ed by kk

Ok this Repeal the 19th is the worst thing I've seen yet from Trump supporters, even worse are his (most likely few) female supporters that are tweeting in support of having a hard fought right taken away.

Suffragettes are rolling in their graves

Reminds me of the whole "If only people who payed taxes voted" thing, that was actually a "If only white people voted" map.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Ok this Repeal the 19th is the worst thing I've seen yet from Trump supporters, even worse are his (most likely few) female supporters that are tweeting in support of having a hard fought right taken away.

Suffragettes are rolling in their graves

Basically brainwashed. You have women saying a woman shouldn't be president because how emotionally unstable they are and how they could "just wake up and start a war!"

Also, have you guys seen the NYT response to Trump's suit?
https://www.scribd.com/document/327479319/Nyt-Letter

It is in every way the legal equivalent of "Go feth yourself".

 whembly wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The thing is, Russia doesn't have to be our foe. In fact, you want to know one of the reasons why they're our foe? Because the GOP has told you they are, because having a boogeyman has always been useful for politics, because when a big chunk of the US government keeps saying you are the enemy and won't treat you fairly, what reason do you have to be friends?. Maybe we wouldn't be in the situation we are now if we actually engaged with Russia, rather than having an entire political party continually trash them.

What? Russia has engaged in wars of expansion in breach of international law. They have recently committed war crimes in order to dismantle peace deals so that their man in Syria can resume killing civilian populations loyal to the resistance. Russia should be actively and aggressively opposed as long as they continue to be a negative actor on the world stage.

This doesn't mean forever war against Russia, of course, and they should always be given opportunity and reason to change their behaviour and return to the international community. But their current status has nothing to do with Republican doctrine or Obama decisions, and everything to do with Putin's actions in Ukraine and Syria.

.

Aaaaand, you completely missed the point. The point being that things didn't have to get this far, if we actually cared about trying international diplomacy rather than just building up political boogeymen to scare the voters with.

To be frank I am with Sebster on this point.

Russia has engaged in a series of international military affairs including the "anti-terrorist" war in Grozny, the annexation of the Crimea, shooting down a passenger jet, and the war crime of bombing a humanitarian aid convoy in Syria, as well as supporting the war crimes of the Syrian government.

On top of that are the cyber incursions of the US political process, intended to bias the election result in Russia's favour.

There is also the mysterious murder of a Russian journalist in London by the use of radioactive Polonium.

We could also look at Russian internal affairs, which are their own business until they infringe on human rights, such as freedom of sexuality (the current repression of homosexuals.)

Let's not kid ourselves that the Russians are just mis-understood OK Guys that our government is setting up for a bogeyman. We've got a real bogeyman in the form of ISIL and the GWoT to worry about already.

And my point is still being missed. Since I clearly didn't articulate myself well enough to get it understood after two attempts, it's probably best to move on from this tangent, because i don't think a third try will work, either.

Your point is a little silly.

You were essentially blaming the GOP for unreasonably labeling Russia as some serious geo-political foe.

Mine/Seb/KK's point was that Russia has always been an entity that does warrant scrutiny and care.... not because the GOP "built up a boogeyman".

EDIT: damn... ninja'ed by kk

Let me say it again, for the last time: NONE of you are understanding the point I was trying to make. This is clearly a failure on my part to properly communicate my thoughts, and for that I apologize. It is now time to move on instead of continuing to attack me.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Also, have you guys seen the NYT response to Trump's suit?
https://www.scribd.com/document/327479319/Nyt-Letter

It is in every way the legal equivalent of "Go feth yourself".

Oh wow, that really is the bluntest "bring it" legal document I've seen.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Also, have you guys seen the NYT response to Trump's suit?
https://www.scribd.com/document/327479319/Nyt-Letter

It is in every way the legal equivalent of "Go feth yourself".

Oh wow, that really is the bluntest "bring it" legal document I've seen.

But don't worry, Trump is all for protecting the constitution

I like that Trump is going with the "I wouldn't touch her, just look at her" defense.

Wasn't having a go with you tanner...
...
...
...
...
This is a great read from 538:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/senate-update-clinton-is-surging-but-down-ballot-democrats-are-losing-ground/

Best possible outcome in my opinion.

Kinda makes sense...

There are many traditional Republican voters who are simply not voting from Trump, but will indeed vote Republican down ballot.

Clinton will win... no doubt about it. The idea that those who worry about Clinton's Presidential actions ought to be offset and balanced by a Republican-led Congress has some merits. Whereas President Trump with a same-party Congress... has the makings of an epic gakstorm... thus the risk-averse among us ought to gravitate toward a Republican Congress to put a brake on the Clinton presidency.

By put a brake on you mean continue to oppose anything and everything just because, which is the exact kind of attitude that lead to the rise of Trump to becoming the nominee of your party.

 whembly wrote:
Wasn't having a go with you tanner...
...
...
...
...
This is a great read from 538:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/senate-update-clinton-is-surging-but-down-ballot-democrats-are-losing-ground/

Best possible outcome in my opinion.

Kinda makes sense...

There are many traditional Republican voters who are simply not voting from Trump, but will indeed vote Republican down ballot.

Clinton will win... no doubt about it. The idea that those who worry about Clinton's Presidential actions ought to be offset and balanced by a Republican-led Congress has some merits. Whereas President Trump with a same-party Congress... has the makings of an epic gakstorm... thus the risk-averse among us ought to gravitate toward a Republican Congress to put a brake on the Clinton presidency.

There was just an article posted here I believe that said the Democrats have a 60 percent chance of winning the senate (I am pretty sure IL will go back to having two Democrat senators at least)

Donald Trump Responds to Groping Allegations by Blaming a Global Conspiracy

Donald Trump is displeased with the media. He expressed this displeasure during his speech in West Palm Beach, Florida on Thursday. The problem is that the media has taken his own words about how he lunges at women and starts kissing and groping them, and turned up real-world instances of him allegedly doing so. Trump is used to getting away with this sort of chatter, these sorts of actions. He’s not getting away with it now, and it infuriates him.

So disruptive is this rare moment of accountability to everything Donald Trump’s ever known in 40-plus years of public life that he can’t just blame the media, either. He can’t just blame the Clintons. That he’s losing the presidential race, and facing public allegations of past sexual assault from more women every day is, in his mind, the sign of a global conspiracy. It's all he's got.

A conspiracy. As we’ve seen in the WikiLeaks hack, Trump said early in his speech, “Hillary Clinton meets in secret with international banks to plot the destruction of U.S. sovereignty in order to enrich these global financial powers, her special interest friends and her donors.” (Donald Trump's Jewish son-in-law Jared Kushner has assured us that he's not an anti-Semite.) After this line, the crowd began chanting “lock her up!”

“So true,” Trump responded. “Honestly, she should be locked up. She should be.”

But back to the conspiracy. The vehicle through which this globalist “plot” is carried out, Trump asserted, is the “corporate media,” the “most powerful weapon deployed by the Clintons.” He then went on this rampage:

Donald Trump, Human Dumpster Fire wrote:The corporate media in our country is no longer involved in journalism. They're a political special interest no different than any lobbyist or other financial entity with a total political agenda. And the agenda is not for you, it's for themselves. And their agenda is to elect crooked Hillary Clinton at any cost, at any price, no matter how many lives they destroy.

For them, it's a war. And for them, nothing at all is out of bounds. This is a struggle for the survival of our nation. Believe me. And this will be our last chance to save it on November 8th. Remember that. This election will determine whether we're a free nation or whether we have only the illusion of democracy but are, in fact, controlled by a small handful of global special interests rigging the system. And our system is rigged. This is reality. You know it. They know it. I know it. And pretty much the whole world knows it.

The establishment and their media enablers wield control over this nation through means that are very well known. Anyone who challenges their control is deemed a sexist, a racist, a xenophobe and morally deformed. They will attack you. They will slander you. They will seek to destroy your career and your family. They will seek to destroy everything about you, including your reputation. They will lie, lie, lie. And then, again, they will do worse than that. They will do whatever's necessary. The Clintons are criminals, remember that, they're criminals.

He described all of the groping allegations flooding into media streams Wednesday evening as “false,” “vicious,” “fabricated,” “outright lies.” He seemed to signal that he would go on the offensive against each of them: “These events never, ever happened. And the people that said them fully understand. You take a look at these people. You study these people and you'll understand also.” In particular he singled out the New York Times and People magazine stories. Of the latter, he instructed his supporters to “take a look. You take a look. Look at her. Look at her words. You tell me what you think. I don't think so.” In other words, the People reporter who is alleging assault wasn't hot enough to be assaulted.

“These attacks are orchestrated by the Clintons and their media allies,” Trump said as he tried to move on. “The only thing Hillary Clinton has going for herself is the press.”

Outsider's perspective: 8 years of rallying around the flag of Obama taking away guns and destroying America is giving way to rallying around the flag of Hillary taking away guns and destroying America.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
By put a brake on you mean continue to oppose anything and everything just because, which is the exact kind of attitude that lead to the rise of Trump to becoming the nominee of your party.

Well if she puts out crap like Obama... yeah.

Congress isn't there to be a rubber stamp for the President.

Remember kids:
'
Congress campaigns on, and gets elected on, the "don't work with Obama" mandate. But it's Obama who is at fault for congress not working with him.

 d-usa wrote:
Remember kids:
'
Congress campaigns on, and gets elected on, the "don't work with Obama" mandate. But it's Obama who is at fault for congress not working with him.

truer words were never spoken.

Don't reelect anyone, get rid of the old blood and in with the new.

 whembly wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
By put a brake on you mean continue to oppose anything and everything just because, which is the exact kind of attitude that lead to the rise of Trump to becoming the nominee of your party.

Well if she puts out crap like Obama... yeah.

Congress isn't there to be a rubber stamp for the President.

True, but we expect them to actually do something for their pay, most of the time they really dont do anything substantive.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
By put a brake on you mean continue to oppose anything and everything just because, which is the exact kind of attitude that lead to the rise of Trump to becoming the nominee of your party.

Well if she puts out crap like Obama... yeah.

Congress isn't there to be a rubber stamp for the President.

True, but we expect them to actually do something for their pay, most of the time they really dont do anything substantive.

The converse is true as well...

Say the GOP maintains both houses... Hillary shouldn't be expected to rubberstamp their agenda as well.

At some point they'll have to come to the table and compromise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
Remember kids:
'
Congress campaigns on, and gets elected on, the "don't work with Obama" mandate. But it's Obama who is at fault for congress not working with him.

Aw horse pucket.

Obama had Congress around his pinky from 2008 to 2010.

Post 2010, GOP took Congress and Obama would rather drink cyanide than work with the heathens...

The Tea Party agenda was pretty reasonable, after all.

Or you know they override her Veto then turn around and go "Hey this was a bad idea, why didnt you tell us this was a bad idea"

TFW the person just admitted to voting for A to keep B from working complaints that B wouldn't work with A.