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 StygianBeach wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

I'm generally a rules-lite, fast-play kind of guy and in practice the dials are actually a really fast way to note actions and carry out a hidden-command system. The action choosen on the dial also affects initiative order which is a pretty cool mechanic that makes your choices even more consequential. The game plays faster than most current games.

If FF make the rules freely available (or sell separately) and the dials actually speed up play, then I may have to give the rules a test run.

It's likely that the rules wil be free, but unlikely that the dials will be free. I could be wrong, but I think that with X-wing the only way to get dials and cards was to buy units. I haven't looked deep enough into X-wing to see if the dials ended up on pirated sites or if anyone ever made a "Dial Maker" program as -IIRC- folks have made for clix games.

On the other hand, The information from the dials is on the back of the rulebook, but not indial form. Might still be enough to give the rules a brief shot if you can find a list of the attack dice (from the unit cards) that each unit has.

 Eilif wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

I'm generally a rules-lite, fast-play kind of guy and in practice the dials are actually a really fast way to note actions and carry out a hidden-command system. The action choosen on the dial also affects initiative order which is a pretty cool mechanic that makes your choices even more consequential. The game plays faster than most current games.

If FF make the rules freely available (or sell separately) and the dials actually speed up play, then I may have to give the rules a test run.

It's likely that the rules wil be free, but unlikely that the dials will be free. I could be wrong, but I think that with X-wing the only way to get dials and cards was to buy units. I haven't looked deep enough into X-wing to see if the dials ended up on pirated sites or if anyone ever made a "Dial Maker" program as -IIRC- folks have made for clix games.

On the other hand, The information from the dials is on the back of the rulebook, but not indial form. Might still be enough to give the rules a brief shot if you can find a list of the attack dice (from the unit cards) that each unit has.

Rules are always free. FFG posts them up for every game.

Youd have to print the stat cards, if they shown any from the articles or ask on BGG.

The dials, if popular will be made from third parties. X wing has lots of third parties that make dials, tokens, stands, etc.

The issue is its going to be a lot of work just to test the game. Either try the real thing in a store that has a demo copy, buy one yourself, or test at a convention.

It would literally not be worth all the effort/time/money printing what you need

I'd put all the symbols that are on the dials on a piece of card and then cover it with some clear tape. Then use a dry erase marker to circle your selection on each half and put the card face down behind the unit. Much easier than making dials for a test game.

Had a look at the main box the other day at work.

Mini's are a solid Meh in terms of quality.Not terrible but if you weren't buying them for the game you probably wouldn't pick them up over something else.

The didn't have too much of a skim through the rules but i did notice that on the back of the getting started booklet was a page of frequently forgotten rules. Not a good sign in my book if your quickstart guide has to have a prompt sheet, it suggests that the rules might be clunky or not as elegantly grafted to thje x-wing framework as some may like.
The lore book is a nice addition, although if you're looking for a game with a unique and rich setting to play fluffy games in then you may need to add your own fluff since it's all a little bit generic fantasy place names.

Everything else was well presented and nicely produced as you would expect, But overall I was underwhelmed.

(I'll say outright that this game probably isn't aimed at players like me, But i don't go into any game wanting to hate it.I want to like every fantasy game because i love me some fantasy.)

 nicromancer wrote:
Had a look at the main box the other day at work.

Mini's are a solid Meh in terms of quality.Not terrible but if you weren't buying them for the game you probably wouldn't pick them up over something else.

The didn't have too much of a skim through the rules but i did notice that on the back of the getting started booklet was a page of frequently forgotten rules. Not a good sign in my book if your quickstart guide has to have a prompt sheet, it suggests that the rules might be clunky or not as elegantly grafted to thje x-wing framework as some may like.
The lore book is a nice addition, although if you're looking for a game with a unique and rich setting to play fluffy games in then you may need to add your own fluff since it's all a little bit generic fantasy place names.

I think you're mostly correct about the minis and fluff. They're fine, but it's true that folks aren't going to be buying this for cutting edge minis or original background. However, one thing the "Terrinoth" universe does have going for it is that it is shared with other games like Runebound, Descent, Battlelore, Dungeon Quest and Rune Age. Still nothing as deep as WHFB, Iron Kingdoms, etc but there's more than just Runewars for information on the universe.

I can't stress enough though that based (admitedly on one game...) the rules don't seem clunky at all and generally feel quite elegant. The "frequently forgotten rules" are just a few reminders for beginners. My buddy and I have tons of minis and lots of rules already, but it was a play through the Runewars rules that made us say, "let's invest in this game".

I could be wrong and who knows what future expansions will to do the system but I think that initially this is a game that folks are going to buy precisely for the fast-playing, smooth rules.

 nicromancer wrote:

The didn't have too much of a skim through the rules but i did notice that on the back of the getting started booklet was a page of frequently forgotten rules. Not a good sign in my book if your quickstart guide has to have a prompt sheet, it suggests that the rules might be clunky or not as elegantly grafted to thje x-wing framework as some may like.

That's actually a fairly common element of rule books, it's done in SAGA for instance (which is a bloody brilliant set of rules). I think actually pretty useful, it helps highlight some of the smaller things that you might well miss on a first read-through, but have some impact on how the game plays.

So actually, I think it's a sign that a game has been pretty well playtested and balanced (they've put the game through focus groups/playtesting, those were the kind of things that are likely missed by new players)

Dials are such a permanent and clumsy mechanic for games. Kinda wish they'd go away.

One of the biggest drawbacks to X-Wing is the dial. Its physical size means there are a finite number of maneuvers a ship can do before they just won't literally fit on the dial. And then, once the dial is printed, that dial's contents are set in stone. You look at early-wave ships like the A-Wing and Interceptor and wonder why they can't do maneuvers a clumsy bomber can do? Simple, they were released before that maneuver even existed in the game.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Dials are such a permanent and clumsy mechanic for games. Kinda wish they'd go away.

One of the biggest drawbacks to X-Wing is the dial. Its physical size means there are a finite number of maneuvers a ship can do before they just won't literally fit on the dial. And then, once the dial is printed, that dial's contents are set in stone. You look at early-wave ships like the A-Wing and Interceptor and wonder why they can't do maneuvers a clumsy bomber can do? Simple, they were released before that maneuver even existed in the game.

I wonder if that's more the fault of the company not updating dials than it is the fault of the dial itself? Seems like what FFG should do is allow folks to exhange their old dials for new ones. Sort of how you could (possibly still can?) exchange your old Dark Age rulebooks for new ones or how Warmachine will sell you new unit cards for your armies.

However, the command tool -and the accompanying rigidly defined movement and turning templates- do bring to the fore the question of "How much control should a player have in a given wargame?" Is absolute control absolutely necessary or can limitations improve the tactical nature of a game. It's an argument that predates command dials by a few decades, but Runewars certainly falls on one side of the argument.

Generally I fall on the side of more control even if it's "gamey". I'm not a huge fan of reaction systems like Two Hour Wargames and Tomorrow's War in which orders can be given, but the way troops obey and react isn't guaranteed. Kings of War is a system that generally represents my prefferences and even though Song of Blades requries you to gamble for activations once you activate you can pretty much choose what to do.

For some reason, though I really liked the dual dial action and modifier system which gives more options than a single X-wing dial but still has limitations largely because of the defined templates which require you to move the full distance exactly and if moving and turning only allow proscribed distance and degree of turn. I also like the fundamental idea of hidden orders, but find writing them out tedious, something the command tool simplifies and standardizes.

The physical dials and boardgame style components are a problem in the long term, but the gameplay aspects they add when used properly are often worth it.

I've been considering sets of generic specialty dice, and command tokens/dials that work in a similar way that can reference easily printed and updated rules. I actually think some generic icon based dice for use by custom rules sets would be a good thing for rules writers across the industry, much like how role playing games use fudge dice and such.

A good example is Wargods, the game is excellent despite the miniature line and support being glacial, archaic, and poorly managed. They have a command system not unlike Runewars where you must give your units a command token, face down, at the start of a round. This determines whether they're charging, moving, or doing any other actions. Then units move by initiative values set. There's more to it, but the system worked even if it was basic. Using components, Rune Wars has run with that and added the ability to set individual initiative values per action, and even included modifiers for common actions that give units their own flavor of those actions.

Selecting an order from a list and putting down a dial or token and then later revealing it has been around in a lot of games for a while. It seems to come in and out of fashion as the decades go by.

I like it a lot and will keep tabs on Runewars as a result, but I really don't like the puzzle piece bases or the look of those giant dial standees on the table, so the odds of me getting into it and playing it straight are really low.

I do wish they had "edgers" for the puzzle-fit bases so they would look squared off.

I'm looking forward to playing in the next few weeks.

Definitely not new, but the current crop of dedicated/traditional miniature wargames seems to have avoided them.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Dials are such a permanent and clumsy mechanic for games. Kinda wish they'd go away.

One of the biggest drawbacks to X-Wing is the dial. Its physical size means there are a finite number of maneuvers a ship can do before they just won't literally fit on the dial. And then, once the dial is printed, that dial's contents are set in stone. You look at early-wave ships like the A-Wing and Interceptor and wonder why they can't do maneuvers a clumsy bomber can do? Simple, they were released before that maneuver even existed in the game.

How is this different than a Codex printing of stats? The only difference is that GW will later print another Codex that you have to purchase again. And what maneuvers are you talking about? Or maybe you just aren't that familiar with the tactical aspect of X-Wing, because the A-Wing and Interceptor have some of the best, and for another matter, thematically accurate dials in the game. Dials and templates are some of the best recent trends in modern competitive miniature gaming, in my opinion. I don't understand how a system without them can even compete nowadays for the competitive gamer. Look at high level Warmahordes, which was always billed as taking the tournament gamer market away from GW, when you need to pre measure focus areas, use dummy bases and movement templates anyway, because failing a charge is a matter of millimeters on your tape measure... Honestly, I'm not even interested playing a game with a tape measure in competitive facet.

These type of critiques, taken any more than some random Joe's personal taste, are totally mindboggling. The fact that a huge chunk of posts in here are even questioning what the market could be for this game, when there are about a million kickstarters for miniature games every day that people happily throw money at, almost lead me to be that people have ulterior motives for critiquing this product. And this is all coming from me, who isn't even sure if they are going to buy the game. But lets at least have an honest discussion on it, in the freaking Runewar thread

I'm liking the lack of distinct game phases. Once it gets going, it seems like it'll be fast to,play, which is great. Seems like it fits somewhere between armada and x wing on how fiddly and long it is, which might be a sweet spot for some people. The movement is really quick, which is generally where things bog down a bit with armada.

What's really got me excited though are the deployment and objective cards. They're simple but change each game enough to hopefully keep it interesting. Playing every game as a "pitched battle" seems to be a trap most miniature games fall into, and it gets boring and also leads to a stale meta.

WUWU wrote:
And what maneuvers are you talking about?

Maybe the Tallon Roll and the Segnor's Loop?

Or maybe you just aren't that familiar with the tactical aspect of X-Wing

Apparently more familiar than you are, lol.

because the A-Wing and Interceptor have some of the best, and for another matter, thematically accurate dials in the game.

Well, except for the aforementioned maneuvers, and the ability to do all of the 1 speed maneuvers. Guess because the accelerator was greased up a bit too much on the low end.

On a different note, don't even worry about the slightly bent plastic pieces. Ease of assembly makes up for it, and straightening spears, swords etc. is a breeze:



Quick boiling water dip, adjust to your specs, then a slightly longer cold water immersion. No worries.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

WUWU wrote:
And what maneuvers are you talking about?

Maybe the Tallon Roll and the Segnor's Loop?

Or maybe you just aren't that familiar with the tactical aspect of X-Wing

Apparently more familiar than you are, lol.

because the A-Wing and Interceptor have some of the best, and for another matter, thematically accurate dials in the game.

Well, except for the aforementioned maneuvers, and the ability to do all of the 1 speed maneuvers. Guess because the accelerator was greased up a bit too much on the low end.

You may not agree with the design decisions but: http://loremasters-wargames.proboards.com/thread/351/dial-wing-creators-talk-dials
I thought it was nice that they even bothered answering design questions and obviously put thought into it other than the usual GW, "Well, we put loads of miniatures on the table and threw a bunch of dice around and just guessed at what we wanted stats and point values to be....look, beer and pretzels!"

I can always point out parts of game rules where I'm scratching my head, in any system, but meh, it's a game. If an A-Wing could do every maneuver an x-wing could, what'd be the point in having an x-wing?

Vertrucio wrote:The physical dials and boardgame style components are a problem in the long term, but the gameplay aspects they add when used properly are often worth it.

I've been considering sets of generic specialty dice, and command tokens/dials that work in a similar way that can reference easily printed and updated rules. I actually think some generic icon based dice for use by custom rules sets would be a good thing for rules writers across the industry, much like how role playing games use fudge dice and such.

A good example is Wargods, the game is excellent despite the miniature line and support being glacial, archaic, and poorly managed. They have a command system not unlike Runewars where you must give your units a command token, face down, at the start of a round. This determines whether they're charging, moving, or doing any other actions. Then units move by initiative values set. There's more to it, but the system worked even if it was basic. Using components, Rune Wars has run with that and added the ability to set individual initiative values per action, and even included modifiers for common actions that give units their own flavor of those actions.

Hidden token activation is a pretty common thing in games. However, if you want to use tokens for hidden orders then you've got to have alot of tokens. Runewars already has a fair number of tokens.

I've seen dice used for command actions, (maybe the new warpath? not sure..). Saga is kind of like this in that you roll dice and use them to activate actions. However, dice don't lend themselves well to hidden orders.

frozenwastes wrote:Selecting an order from a list and putting down a dial or token and then later revealing it has been around in a lot of games for a while. It seems to come in and out of fashion as the decades go by.

I like it a lot and will keep tabs on Runewars as a result, but I really don't like the puzzle piece bases or the look of those giant dial standees on the table, so the odds of me getting into it and playing it straight are really low.

I also agree about the puzzle piece bases. I defnitely see the advantage as far as movement, but my guess is that we're going to see alot of bare black base edges because any paint on those edges is inneveitably going to chip over time.

As for the standees, it's not too much of an issue IMHO, because you can always choose to place them by the unit cards at the table edge rather than by the unit itself.

If its a FFG game, it will have a dial. 90% of their games have at least one.

This isn't a problem with the game, its the company. For the case of X Wing, if something is outdated, it would make sense to release updated dials, but if they are going to go that route, they will just give you a new ship to buy also with a different dial.

As for the frequently forgotten rules, that's actually a good thing. It has nothing to do with the rules being clunky or not clear. FFG has some of the best books. Learn to play then the rules reference book for the in-depth details clearly laid out. FFR section just shows they tested the game a lot and its useful tips for remembering rules and such to help newbies. Its like in their Arkham Horror LCG, they suggest taking a mulligan for asset cards at the start of the game for a good opening hand. They don't have to do that, but it helps newbies.

Talking to friends more on it, and one of them owning copies for their store, they like it, but one of the biggest issues is the 2 factions. Id bet a good amount of people wont buy it for this reason alone. You cant do 2 factions for a miniatures game at release. It just wont take off anywhere when your setting is generic vanilla fantasy. Star Wars has the massive IP behind it so that's why it is going so strong still with now 3 factions.

Id consider this game in a weird purgatory state. Maybe its to give X wing players a fantasy game? Maybe its more like a board game with minis? But tis trying to do mass combat ranked file easy? Its not a skirmish game sooo? The game is not well defined what its purpose is to fill. I like it over all, but wont invent a penny into it as its all over the place. Sticking to 6mm KoW for ranked mass battles

 Eilif wrote:
As for the standees, it's not too much of an issue IMHO, because you can always choose to place them by the unit cards at the table edge rather than by the unit itself.

The strange thing is that for this game I wouldn't want the dials anywhere near the units in question, but for x-wing when people put the dials nowhere near the ships it annoys me.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
As for the standees, it's not too much of an issue IMHO, because you can always choose to place them by the unit cards at the table edge rather than by the unit itself.

The strange thing is that for this game I wouldn't want the dials anywhere near the units in question, but for x-wing when people put the dials nowhere near the ships it annoys me.

That is strange...

Isn't the basic table size 3' wide? So for most folks (with a 4' wide playing space) you can put the dials and cards and such at the edge of the table, roughly lined up with the units they refer to. I think these dials sound nifty.

 agnosto wrote:
[If an A-Wing could do every maneuver an x-wing could, what'd be the point in having an x-wing?

It's tougher, does more damage, and has the option for Astromechs, and therefore shield regeneration and other tricks?

There are plenty of mechanics in the X-Wing game to differentiate ships from one another.

Card design where icon size selections limit ships to 4 action types based simply on a limitation of physical space, and a dial that limits the total number of maneuvers simply based on limitation of physical space is bad game design, not differentiation, lol.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
[If an A-Wing could do every maneuver an x-wing could, what'd be the point in having an x-wing?

It's tougher, does more damage, and has the option for Astromechs, and therefore shield regeneration and other tricks?

There are plenty of mechanics in the X-Wing game to differentiate ships from one another.

Card design where icon size selections limit ships to 4 action types based simply on a limitation of physical space, and a dial that limits the total number of maneuvers simply based on limitation of physical space is bad game design, not differentiation, lol.

You didn't read the interview, did you?

As always YMMV. I have much more fun with XWing and games like it than I do with games like 40K because they don't require me to parse badly written rules to as great an extent and allow me to have fun. Again, YMMV, but I want a beer and pretzels game to actually promote the presence of beer and pretzels rather than stacks of books, supplements, army lists, and case upon case of miniatures. I play games, I don't "hobby" and I play in the little free time that I have, I don't min-max or otherwise try to find exploits, I play what is fun to me and my friends who are like-minded. XWing works as do all of the other FFG studio games that I've played. Again YMMV but I find GW's rules to be much less intuitive and user friendly than FFG's and so that's what I play. YMMV.

 Eilif wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
As for the standees, it's not too much of an issue IMHO, because you can always choose to place them by the unit cards at the table edge rather than by the unit itself.

The strange thing is that for this game I wouldn't want the dials anywhere near the units in question, but for x-wing when people put the dials nowhere near the ships it annoys me.

That is strange...

I get you Frozen Wastes, oddly feel the same way. During my RW demos there was plenty of room for the the dials to be pulled to the back, away from the view of the clashing units. and that wasn't even on the standard 3' x 6' board. My group will just use our 4' x 6' F.A.T. mats and both players will have a good half a foot for their tokens, dials and other necessities without messing up the aesthetics of the table top.

My review and battle report of Runewars is up at the club's blog.
It's not a roll-by-roll report, but I go quickly through the course of the game and insert my thoughts and observations on the various aspects of the rules and gameplay as they came up for us. https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/04/06/runewars-first-game-and-review/
Beware though, we violated CSW's painted-only policy, so while there are plenty of picures, they are all of drab, grey hordes.
Oh, the Horror....

 Eilif wrote:
My review and battle report of Runewars is up at the club's blog.
It's not a roll-by-roll report, but I go quickly through the course of the game and insert my thoughts and observations on the various aspects of the rules and gameplay as they came up for us. https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/04/06/runewars-first-game-and-review/
Beware though, we violated CSW's painted-only policy, so while there are plenty of picures, they are all of drab, grey hordes.
Oh, the Horror....

Spoiler:

Cool write-up, thanks for sharing. I found the missed charge rule to be a bit underwhelming and would break any immersive play as you sit there and think "they were staring each other in the eyes, why in the world would they miss contact?"

That's where the XWing-like movement mechanics will fail most I think.

So the puzzle piece edges don't actually interact with the movement templates and are only for linking bases together? Interesting.

agnosto wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
My review and battle report of Runewars is up at the club's blog.
It's not a roll-by-roll report, but I go quickly through the course of the game and insert my thoughts and observations on the various aspects of the rules and gameplay as they came up for us. https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2017/04/06/runewars-first-game-and-review/
Beware though, we violated CSW's painted-only policy, so while there are plenty of picures, they are all of drab, grey hordes.
Oh, the Horror....

Spoiler:

Cool write-up, thanks for sharing. I found the missed charge rule to be a bit underwhelming and would break any immersive play as you sit there and think "they were staring each other in the eyes, why in the world would they miss contact?"

That's where the XWing-like movement mechanics will fail most I think.

You're very welcome, thanks!
For me, the pass-by was the most significant shortcoming of the rules. The rest of the rules seemed to work so darn well, that how one feels about the possibility for pass-by's may be the crux decision point for whether or not to commit to these rules.

I see two mitigating factors that can miminize, but not eliminate this. First, with more practice using the templates we can assume that far fewer pass-by's will occur. Second, if one side wants to charge and the other wants to pass by, it does allow for a nice "Chicken" factor as you try to guess which way your opponent will go. Still no matter how experienced the players are there is still a slim chance that two units could both try to charge each other and both could miss and that's something that's very hard to justify in any realistic manner.

frozenwastes wrote:So the puzzle piece edges don't actually interact with the movement templates and are only for linking bases together? Interesting.

They do interact. If you look at the movement temlate you'll see a little indent about a half inch from the start. The edge of the templates are designed specifically to line up strait alongside puzzle-piece style bases.

It looks like there's a gap to allow for the protruding puzzle piece but the actual anchor point is the base corner? Am I just not seeing it right?