Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am converting my Overkill (mostly squad Donatus) miniatures so they are more Kill Team appropriate. The DA is getting his weapons replaced (Sword is being switched out for a Bolter, plasma pistol is being switched out for a Xenophase Blade) and being made a Sergeant. The Iron Hands Marine is either going to get a Stalker Bolter or a regular Bolter instead of a combi-Melta. The Space Wolf is losing his Chainsword to be compliant with the Veterans rules (he has one too many CCWs and his knife is unsheathed so it stays). The others are compliant so they will go to appropriate Kill Teams. The HQs are perfectly legal, as are the VVs(though the BA is probably going to never see play) and Terminator.

I've traditionally run drop pod armies, sometimes with 80 some guys in an 1850 list, with as many as 9 drop pods.

While the number of bodies is good, the humble bolter is best en masse and against soft targets. I've always wished I could throw extra special weapons on my tactical squads.

So we have Sternguard/DWVets. Sternguard were always decent on the drop, but because of their cost I've always thought they were a suicide squad. Especially since they couldn't hold/contest an objective. Since they were still ordinary marines, they die just the same and since you couldn't take a lot of them, due to the objective holding restriction, you were in trouble.

But...with Pedro and now the DW rules, you can have obsec objective holders. With powerful, mobile heavy weapons. A 10 man squad with 2 heavy weapons and a couple of special weapons (meltas), coupled with the special ammo is a great drop squad. You can split them into 2 squads and have a reasonable chance to wipe out a larger squad, vehicle etc, especially with a str 8 melta shot and 2 str 9 frag shots. ( I only am putting 2 frag cannons in a 10 man squad due to points)/template shots and the poisoned rounds or vengeance rounds. Don't count out the effectiveness of the special ammo, with all the special weapons available it is tempting to spend points on them when you don't need to.

Kill teams are more powerful, but they limit your use of drop pods, they aren't obsec and you won't be able to split the squad.

I want to drop around 30 marines onto the enemies side, preferably where I can gang up on part of his army, and where he will have a hard time counter attacking me. This is where drop pods are great, while you can shoot through them ( which I have always thought was iffy) they prevent most enemies from getting to you.

In my 1850 list this leaves me with 3 5 man squads, and some points leftover. the 3 5 man squads are objective holders. One is actually a 7 man squad, with the libby attached, and 4 frag cannons. It's job is to drop and erase a squad, and hold onto a major objective.

This leaves with around 100 or so points. I could add more guys to some of the camping squads, but I think a unit of bikers held in reserve would be a great choice. They are mobile, twin linked and can use special ammo. They can effectively clear anyone who has strayed into my backfield ( in conjunction with the other camping squads. )

My list is one that I came up with and similar to one that Reecius at Frontline Gaming used at Adepticon to great effect. His list, as he put it, was designed to fight the meta ( anti Eldar), and was good at killing infantry and weak against armor. The main differences between his list and mine is that I don't have Pedro, and a 4 frag cannon unit in place of GravCents, is 1 unit less in terms of the main force, no melta bike, and no culexus ( though I could have the latter instead of the bikes). My list has anti armor in the form of frag cannons and melta, and while I am one unit less, all my units have obsec except the bikers.

In place of the bikers, I could add some hth elements, though I don't think they are needed. I could add some more shooters, or special weapons. I could add the culexus, or an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor.

Now I just need the darn frag cannons to come in !

So, wording. Possible interesting oversight on page 91 for the Aquila kill team.

The special rule states that they can re roll any to wound rolls and AP rolls of 1.

So... Do they get to re roll AP rolls of one, as well as -any- to wound roll? The literal interpretation could go that way, but I'm liking the possibility even if it's just a grammatical oversight.

I'm not sure what's confusing there, they can reroll any to wound rolls of one, and any armor pen rolls of 1.

SBG wrote:
So, wording. Possible interesting oversight on page 91 for the Aquila kill team.

The special rule states that they can re roll any to wound rolls and AP rolls of 1.

So... Do they get to re roll AP rolls of one, as well as -any- to wound roll? The literal interpretation could go that way, but I'm liking the possibility even if it's just a grammatical oversight.

No there'd be a comma after the first "rolls" indicating a separate clause. This is all one piece of information.

 HANZERtank wrote:

SBG wrote:
So, wording. Possible interesting oversight on page 91 for the Aquila kill team.

The special rule states that they can re roll any to wound rolls and AP rolls of 1.

So... Do they get to re roll AP rolls of one, as well as -any- to wound roll? The literal interpretation could go that way, but I'm liking the possibility even if it's just a grammatical oversight.

No there'd be a comma after the first "rolls" indicating a separate clause. This is all one piece of information.

Debatably, no. In a list, a comma before the final item's "and" is called an Oxford Comma. There's quite a debate on whether or not it should even be a rhing. In this instance it would be helpful as a default mechanism for determining the intent here, bit I doubt that GW would be particularly careful on the grammar and syntax front here when they never have before.

I see what you mean, ideally it would read like this I think.

"Reroll to wound rolls and armour penetration rolls, of a 1"

One thing that got brought up ive seen is why you would ever buy a combi melta for a veteran when a melta coststhe same and has unlimited shots. This isusing the swap your ccw for a bolter, and then one of your bolters for a special weapon.

I'm wondering if a Xenophase Blade is worth it on a Watch Sergeant or if I should just go with a Lightning Claw instead.

Gree wrote:
I'm wondering if a Xenophase Blade is worth it on a Watch Sergeant or if I should just go with a Lightning Claw instead.

Not worth it.

Yeah, DW, are bad in melee imo, too expensive for a bunch of T4 W1 3++ save models (for a storm shield and Lclaw or other power wep, it's 47ppm, and it only gets worse from there in terms of points). If you had to have a melee weapon on your watch sgt, I'd go with the Lclaw because it has shred.

I dunno, I like the Xenophase Blade. Making stuff reroll their Invulnerable is quite potent.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I dunno, I like the Xenophase Blade. Making stuff reroll their Invulnerable is quite potent.

I like it too though I'm finding that scoring wounds isn't super reliable and it does nothing to 2+ saves. If it were ap2 it would be a true winner. As is I take one just bc it looks cool.

It looks like a Mogu sword from Mists of Pandaria.

"And the Monkey King is blown away!"

SJ

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I dunno, I like the Xenophase Blade. Making stuff reroll their Invulnerable is quite potent.

It really isn't with strength 4. You're basically doubling your chances of getting the wound through the invulnerable save, but there are weapons which double (or triple) your chances of wounding, such as lightning claw and powerfist, and those work against all opponents, not only those with invulnerable saves.

Hmmm. In that case I might decide against taking as many Xenophase blades as I currently have planned.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 ChaosDad wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


Not enough model count, and foot slogging marines will get ripped apart fast.

Well, the formation rules gives everything deep strike, so I'm not sure how much footslogging there will be...
What do you suggest?

Landraiders? Drop Pods?

So they gonna come down on a warp spider or scatter bike spam army and kill maybe 2-3 units and then get picked part as they footslog.

The best suggestion is don't waste too much money to make a All DW army, rather use them as allied support

Yes, even tthe Eldar cannot picked them apart, the Eldar units that survived the alpha strike can easily run away from them and regroup, with their high mobility.
Or if they facing Tau, they will get shreded by 12 S7 and 12 S5 interceptor missiles before they can even fire a shot.
Or if they are facing Necrons, they landed in and fired all their shots but only killed a single wraith in the harvest formation or a couple of Necron Warriors, then got tied up by scarab swarms supportted by the spider for the rest of the game.

It is hard to make a pure DW either MSU type list or Deathstar / superfriend type list, they are mainly just normal foot slog marines with more shining toys and a few buffs in offensive powers, where the other top tier armies like Eldar, Tau, Necrons or Daemons just don't care.

On the other hand, if playing a Fun / casaul - semi competitive game, an ally of DW should be both ok-ish powerful and fun, since most of their new toys are coooool It is just a shame that a T4, W1, 3+ or 2+/5++ that costs 22pts (40pts for the later one) that only moves 6 inches at most cannot be qualified as good platform in the current meta.

So Watch Sergeants. What is everyone going to put on them? A Combi-Weapon seems like a better choice than a Melee weapon.

You don't actually need to take a Sergeant in a Vet squad.

I would only take the upgrade if you need a challenge magnet.

 Selym wrote:
You don't actually need to take a Sergeant in a Vet squad.

I would only take the upgrade if you need a challenge magnet.

So then just a regular Boltgun for the Boltgun squads and a Stalker Boltgun for my Stalker Boltgun squad. I will think if I need a Challenge magnet or not.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So Watch Sergeants. What is everyone going to put on them? A Combi-Weapon seems like a better choice than a Melee weapon.

Combi-Plasma and Lightning Claw, just like how I run my Tactical Squad Sergeants. Serve as challenge magnet for the Librarian in my squad.

Hey guys, any of you had mich luck using storm bolters on veteran squads. Doublesthe damage output at longer ranges for only 5ppm.

The other one is bikes, thinking of using them as a fast flanking force with power weapons and twin linked bolters.

 HANZERtank wrote:
Hey guys, any of you had mich luck using storm bolters on veteran squads. Doublesthe damage output at longer ranges for only 5ppm.

The other one is bikes, thinking of using them as a fast flanking force with power weapons and twin linked bolters.

They are a terrible choice since you don't get special issue ammunition.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
Hey guys, any of you had mich luck using storm bolters on veteran squads. Doublesthe damage output at longer ranges for only 5ppm.

The other one is bikes, thinking of using them as a fast flanking force with power weapons and twin linked bolters.

They are a terrible choice since you don't get special issue ammunition.

Which is one of the real head-scratchers. Would make termies that little bit better.

 Blacksails wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 HANZERtank wrote:
Hey guys, any of you had mich luck using storm bolters on veteran squads. Doublesthe damage output at longer ranges for only 5ppm.

The other one is bikes, thinking of using them as a fast flanking force with power weapons and twin linked bolters.

They are a terrible choice since you don't get special issue ammunition.

Which is one of the real head-scratchers. Would make termies that little bit better.

Yeah. I was really hoping they'd give their Termis that boost. Disappointed with them in general actually. Was hoping to be able to mix their kit a bit more than they allow.

It just continues to baffle me. Its been a personal proposal/theoretical house rule of mine since 5th that termies (being vets) get access to the same ammo sternguard do.

Bah, as long as they don't FAQ the weapon swapping thing so I can have a shotgun and stalker toting squad, I'm mostly happy.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So Watch Sergeants. What is everyone going to put on them? A Combi-Weapon seems like a better choice than a Melee weapon.

Melta bombs. Maybe. Possibly an auspex, but we have Special Issue Ammo that ignores cover, so probably not even that.

 Blacksails wrote:
It just continues to baffle me. Its been a personal proposal/theoretical house rule of mine since 5th that termies (being vets) get access to the same ammo sternguard do.

Bah, as long as they don't FAQ the weapon swapping thing so I can have a shotgun and stalker toting squad, I'm mostly happy.

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

 Wolfblade wrote:

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

Which you can do. Or if you can't Space Marine bikers can't have special weapons.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
It just continues to baffle me. Its been a personal proposal/theoretical house rule of mine since 5th that termies (being vets) get access to the same ammo sternguard do.

Bah, as long as they don't FAQ the weapon swapping thing so I can have a shotgun and stalker toting squad, I'm mostly happy.

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

Is there a rule preventing this? I haven't found any explicitly stating as such, hence why people are wary about it, but going ahead anyways until GW says otherwise via FAQ.

 Crimson wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

You can have a stalker and bolter, or shotgun and bolter, but not stalker and shotgun as now you're trading optional wargear you've "bought" for more wargear

Which you can do. Or if you can't Space Marine bikers can't have special weapons.

That's really an errata fix, otherwise it falls into a grey area of "can you exchange bought wargear for more wargear", as nothing prohibits it or allows you to exchange wargear like that (as HIWPI/my interpretation of RAI is you can't do multiple exchanges of wargear like that)

 Blacksails wrote:

Is there a rule preventing this? I haven't found any explicitly stating as such, hence why people are wary about it, but going ahead anyways until GW says otherwise via FAQ.

It's a bit of a grey area, there's nothing telling you that you can or can't exchange the chainsword for the bolter, then the bolter for whatever.