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Hey everyone, I need some advice as to the future of my army.

My problem is that the local GW I usually play at play smaller games at 1000 points. Now obviously this is rather limiting to how my deathwatch can perform. I've been running 3 kill teams fairly kitted and all had 75 point terminators in them. I was running 300+ points in 5 models.....yeah I know.

There are large holes in the deathwatch, I'll admit that. The largest of which in my army is survivability.

So I have 2 ideas of how to go with my army. Every idea has to fit the theme and my play style which is death star/alpha strike.

I have two choices; raven wing strike force or inquisitorial detachement

---------------------

Ravenwing would consist of either sammael or a chaplain on bike, 2x bike squads with grav guns and a command squad with the banner and an apoc.

My deathwatch here would likely be 2 Aquila kill teams each with a ML1 lib to cast psychic shriek and if I'm lucky invis.

This route gives me fast and hard hitting units. Speed of the Raven would allow me to get into position and be very survivable for that first turn, or allow me to hit hard against GMCs and elites.

Theme wise I would do my bikes not as Ravenwing but much as the deathwatch is, each bike customised to be from different chapters, all riding together. This makes me question as to whether to use sammael from a model standpoint though, it doesn't really fit.

---------------------------

The inquisition would consist of several squads of henchmen; most likely 3 squads of 5 crusaders, a priest and a Psyker each. These would go and tie up large targets in a tar pit, use psychic shriek and hold points.

I would then get coteaz and stick him in one, probably maxed out kill team with 4xfrag cannons and a few storm shields. If I have the points I'll throw in a Corvus.

This solves a lot of the survivability issue but leaves me very slow.

-----------------

I'm really lost as to how to proceed. I look at the SKYHAMMER annihilation force but could get it to really work in 1000 considering I want those juicy grav cannons.

Any advice or opinions would be great, even if it's to just throw your vote one way or another.

Cheers all,

Qwerty

Why do you need the allies? At 1000 points, you're already stretching thin.

Just trim down your squads, remember, a basic vet is still a very, very strong model. You can fit 3x10 capacity aquilla squads in pods and an HQ at 1000 pts. That strikes me as pretty potent. If you went CAD with no mixed squads, you could drop 30 vets split into 6 squads, with 2 combis per squad.

At our vets base cost, and no reduced prices for upgrades, they're just really inefficient to put melee wargear on.

You could also go CAD and take a handful of individual bikes/terminators, bring 3 pods, maybe 1 of which is empty, and drop 2 pods turn 1. Then you have mobile individual bikes, solid fire support from the termies, and 2/4 squads right in their face.

Hey Trace,

I'm trying to do the maths here an the cheapest way i can do an aquilla kill team with 2x frag cannons that fits in a DP is 245 pts. At max I could get 4 of those squads and that 20 space marine and 4 terminators on the board, I could remove 1 DP, have 2 arrive full first turn and one empty second turn and have all units on the board turn 1, 2 in the enemies deployment and 2 in my deployment.

My thoughts are this though; offensively yeah vets are super strong and versitile, I'm a huge advocate of this army. However I'm still just a marine, I get one turn to shoot and then I'm in a LOT of trouble. I still have very few models on the board with mediocre survivability.

That list about is also just lumping formations together sadly. No HQ and no Black spear and no ObSec.

Make no mistake I'm grateful for the advice, I'm just having trouble getting it to work. I use close to this list on the board already and I get to hit hard...once.....but it's never enough and I'll lose the two forward elements the next turn and then it's a slow loss.

I was simply thinking at this many point it would be better to take just one large and kitted team and pay less DP/termi tax, then bring in other elements to plug holes.

Cheers though, I've been refreshing all day for advice!

Qwerty2jam wrote:
Hey Trace,

I'm trying to do the maths here an the cheapest way i can do an aquilla kill team with 2x frag cannons that fits in a DP is 245 pts. At max I could get 4 of those squads and that 20 space marine and 4 terminators on the board, I could remove 1 DP, have 2 arrive full first turn and one empty second turn and have all units on the board turn 1, 2 in the enemies deployment and 2 in my deployment.

My thoughts are this though; offensively yeah vets are super strong and versitile, I'm a huge advocate of this army. However I'm still just a marine, I get one turn to shoot and then I'm in a LOT of trouble. I still have very few models on the board with mediocre survivability.

That list about is also just lumping formations together sadly. No HQ and no Black spear and no ObSec.

Make no mistake I'm grateful for the advice, I'm just having trouble getting it to work. I use close to this list on the board already and I get to hit hard...once.....but it's never enough and I'll lose the two forward elements the next turn and then it's a slow loss.

I was simply thinking at this many point it would be better to take just one large and kitted team and pay less DP/termi tax, then bring in other elements to plug holes.

Cheers though, I've been refreshing all day for advice!

You're right. They are very expensive for what they give you, but making a large kitted team isn't going to alleviate that weakness, it's only going to make it worse. Storm shields don't help you survive mass shooting. You're not going to get a decent squad of DW for less than 250-300, it's just the nature of the beast with 22 pt marines.

Perhaps you should consider doing a vanilla marine CAD or formation for tac marines/scouts if you want more bodies?

Skyhammer is a good way to get 30 more marines for ~700~1000 pts, but that won't fit into a 1k DW list.

I think you might be best served running a CAD with ML2 Libby and 3x10 vets, with 4x combi per squad in drop pods. That setup is 980, so you could flex a little on equip. Allows you to combat squad down into 6 squads with 2 combis each, lets you alpha, lets you hit hard. You could swap 1 squad from combis to 2x frag cannons.

The strength of DW is offensive shooting, not durability.

The real question is....is the offensive shooting enough to hurt the enemy so as they cannot overcome the army's lack of durability.

My main army before this has been an Imperial Fist/s/SOT drop pod army. I'm bringing down 5 drop pods turn 1, 50 marines. Then 4 more pods, with a dev squad on the board.

It's been a fun, effective army, but not an overpowering, win everytime list. But it had good durability ( until I met 6th edition eldar wraithguard with flame weapons and wave serpents).

So, as a point of comparison, my drop pod DW army is about 50 or so guys, 40 less than the IF's. Is the firepower of 50 DW guys that much better than 90 IF's? Can I wipe out enough of my enemy to overcome having fewer models?

I'm no math hammer expert, but here are some musings.
10 IF guys vs 10 DW guys, short range. SOT rules for the If. 20 bolter shots, 12 hits, 8 misses, then with rerolls you get another 6 hits for a total of 18 hits. That's 9 wounds, maybe 3 fails. So 3 dead.
10DW guys vs 10 IF guys, short range. 20 bolter shots, 12 hits, we'll say of the 8 misses 4 of them are 1's, so 4 rerolls, 3 more hits. 15 total.
Now, if we went with the S4, AP3 rounds, that's 7-8 dead IFMarines. If we went with the wounds on 2's rounds, thats 4-5 dead.



BUT....winning is not done soley through the use of offensive fire power. You need more units to sieze objectives, you need to be able to take and survive a punch from the enemy. That's where a larger force has an advantage.

So the more accurate matchup above would be 10 DW guys vs 20 IF guys, roughly, since the IF has more bodies and units. And firepower wise, they then almost match in terms of 6 vs 8 dead marines scored for the two sides, give or take.

So roughly, if we have double the number of Imperial Fists, we still don't match the potential of the DW. And we're not even including the different special weapons. But, losing 6 guys hurts the DW more than losing 8 IF's.

You can still buy the transports for your units in the black spear since the basis is veterans. Will help give you some additional cheap durability and additional units.

General Hobbs wrote:

The real question is....is the offensive shooting enough to hurt the enemy so as they cannot overcome the army's lack of durability.

My main army before this has been an Imperial Fist/s/SOT drop pod army. I'm bringing down 5 drop pods turn 1, 50 marines. Then 4 more pods, with a dev squad on the board.

It's been a fun, effective army, but not an overpowering, win everytime list. But it had good durability ( until I met 6th edition eldar wraithguard with flame weapons and wave serpents).

So, as a point of comparison, my drop pod DW army is about 50 or so guys, 40 less than the IF's. Is the firepower of 50 DW guys that much better than 90 IF's? Can I wipe out enough of my enemy to overcome having fewer models?

I'm no math hammer expert, but here are some musings.
10 IF guys vs 10 DW guys, short range. SOT rules for the If. 20 bolter shots, 12 hits, 8 misses, then with rerolls you get another 6 hits for a total of 18 hits. That's 9 wounds, maybe 3 fails. So 3 dead.
10DW guys vs 10 IF guys, short range. 20 bolter shots, 12 hits, we'll say of the 8 misses 4 of them are 1's, so 4 rerolls, 3 more hits. 15 total.
Now, if we went with the S4, AP3 rounds, that's 7-8 dead IFMarines. If we went with the wounds on 2's rounds, thats 4-5 dead.



BUT....winning is not done soley through the use of offensive fire power. You need more units to sieze objectives, you need to be able to take and survive a punch from the enemy. That's where a larger force has an advantage.

So the more accurate matchup above would be 10 DW guys vs 20 IF guys, roughly, since the IF has more bodies and units. And firepower wise, they then almost match in terms of 6 vs 8 dead marines scored for the two sides, give or take.

So roughly, if we have double the number of Imperial Fists, we still don't match the potential of the DW. And we're not even including the different special weapons. But, losing 6 guys hurts the DW more than losing 8 IF's.

This brings up the crux of the problem with DW.

DW is 100% a honeyd*ck codex. There are so many cool bells and whistles, but in reality, the workhorse is the basic vet. A handful of cheap upgrades (Combi weapons) can give a squad enough extra punch to take down some hard targets, but aside from that, there's not a whole lot of good upgrades. In most situations, you're just better off with more bodies. Like you pointed out, while the DW does the damage of basically 2x the number of tac marines, they're also half the wounds and half the board coverage.

Frag cannons are really strong, but they're also really expensive. 2 lascannon shots at 12" is nice, but you're putting a 47 point marine directly on top of your opponent. A grav dev from skyhammer is only 49 points. The template is quite strong, but is it something an army that has armywide ignores cover really needs to pay so much for? The things DW will have trouble killing are exactly what Grav excels at, GC, SHV, anything that needs low AP high ROF. The double templates are definitely strong, but I'm not convinced they fill a role that particularly needs filling.

All the melee upgrades are a waste. Honor Guard are 25 points for 2+ and a BP+PW, one of the most cost efficient melee units in the game. Why would you want to start at 37 points just for a power weapon?

Infernus is cool, but way too many points.

Heavy Flamer is a legit option, although it falls into the same category as the frag cannon in my eyes.

Storm Shields are almost half the cost of a marine, while only increasing survivability by 66% in situations where the weapon is AP2/3, and you do not have a cover save.

Stalkers are a decent choice. Compare 5 vets with 10 scouts. 135 vs 120. 10 special ammo sniper rounds vs 10 sniper rounds. 5 wounds vs 10 wounds. Standard marine vs infiltrate and scout. 3+ vs 4+. I feel like stalkers are moderately more damaging while being moderately more fragile. Turning a stalker team into a formation makes it even less cost efficient just to pick up rerolls on the wounds. Again, honeyd*cking.

In my opinion, the best upgrades for vets are combis to give them a bit more oomph and flexibility without removing their SA. Frag cannons, heavy flamers and stalkers are viable in specific roles, but can easily eat up points without paying off. Melee upgrades are a complete waste, beyond maybe a single power weapon or fist in a vanilla 10 man squad just to keep them from getting overrun by something like a riptide in assault.

It seems like keeping our squads lean, and allying in SM for scouts or skyhammer is probably our best bet. Allying in tac marines wouldn't be bad, but if we want bodies just for the sake of bodies, scouts are particularly good at that, especially with their dirt cheap LSS. Skyhammer gives us a big oomph on turn 1/2, as well as some moderately priced bodies (Assault marines), and access to cheaper heavies (With relentless!).

ALSO!

Why the hell can we take grav guns but not combi-grav? That's trash.

I've been thinking the same thing about combi weapons vs heavy/special weapons.

My issue is I want to bring a pure DW/OX army, without a chapter's marines as allies.

Adding OX Henchmen squads should go a long way to putting lots of extra bodies on the field for durability. Acolytes can be REALLY cheap, and Crusaders are a much cheaper way of bringing Storm Shields to play than putting them on DW Vets.

Well I got me deathwatch sphess mahreens together, and wanna see how they run for a local ITC tournament. I already faced a 1500 super daemonkin and friends list and got murked when playing casual without objectives. But manage to kill a greater daemon and a pile of korn dawgs and bloodletters. So here is a list I got, please give tips/advice:

ps. no allies, single cad, no formations.

+++ DW Tourney List 1 CAD (1500pts) +++

++ Deathwatch: Codex (2016) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1500pts) ++

+ HQ (205pts) +

Watch Captain (205pts) [The Beacon Angelis]
··Rules: And They Shall Know no Fear, Independant Character, Mission Tactics
··Artificer Armour [Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer]

+ Elites (200pts) +

Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]

··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]

··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


+ Troops (1015pts) +

Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (205pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Storm Shield]


Veterans (225pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Storm Shield]


+ Fast Attack (80pts) +

Bikers (40pts)
··Biker [Chainsword, Deathwatch Teleport Homer, Twin-Linked Boltgun]


Bikers (40pts)
··Biker [Chainsword, Deathwatch Teleport Homer, Twin-Linked Boltgun]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So the idea behind this list, is having one pod go in @ turn 1 to take out whatever scary super heavy. The metal boxes to go forward with marines to cap points. Bikes act as beacon for suicide termies and grav pod to come in turn 2/3/4; also as suicide units to eat overwatch and impede enemy movements. With 2 mobile locator beacons on bikes, pods with beacons, and captain with angelis, i can drop the termies and grav pod where it needs to go without scattering. If the captain runs into some crazy deathstars I can just teleport other units to him.

Thoughts?

General Hobbs wrote:


I've been thinking the same thing about combi weapons vs heavy/special weapons.

My issue is I want to bring a pure DW/OX army, without a chapter's marines as allies.

I'd say combis are even better for pure DW army, because of their cost vs the heavies, you can run more squads. An 1850 list can fit 5x10 man squads with 4x combi each in a pod, then grab a few solo bikes/termies/vv for ob grabbing. Could sub 4 combis for 2 frags in a unit, since they're assault 2, it would only be marginally more expensive.

Adding OX Henchmen squads should go a long way to putting lots of extra bodies on the field for durability. Acolytes can be REALLY cheap, and Crusaders are a much cheaper way of bringing Storm Shields to play than putting them on DW Vets.

Could do cheap acolyte units with coteaz to spam out some chimeras. Give you a bit more shooting and some ob sec. Good thinking.

Well I got me deathwatch sphess mahreens together, and wanna see how they run for a local ITC tournament. I already faced a 1500 super daemonkin and friends list and got murked when playing casual without objectives. But manage to kill a greater daemon and a pile of korn dawgs and bloodletters. So here is a list I got, please give tips/advice:

ps. no allies, single cad, no formations.

+++ DW Tourney List 1 CAD (1500pts) +++

++ Deathwatch: Codex (2016) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1500pts) ++

+ HQ (205pts) +

Watch Captain (205pts) [The Beacon Angelis]
··Rules: And They Shall Know no Fear, Independant Character, Mission Tactics
··Artificer Armour [Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer]

+ Elites (200pts) +

Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]

··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]

··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


+ Troops (1015pts) +

Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Rhino [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (205pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Storm Shield]


Veterans (225pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]

··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Storm Shield]


+ Fast Attack (80pts) +

Bikers (40pts)
··Biker [Chainsword, Deathwatch Teleport Homer, Twin-Linked Boltgun]


Bikers (40pts)
··Biker [Chainsword, Deathwatch Teleport Homer, Twin-Linked Boltgun]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So the idea behind this list, is having one pod go in @ turn 1 to take out whatever scary super heavy. The metal boxes to go forward with marines to cap points. Bikes act as beacon for suicide termies and grav pod to come in turn 2/3/4; also as suicide units to eat overwatch and impede enemy movements. With 2 mobile locator beacons on bikes, pods with beacons, and captain with angelis, i can drop the termies and grav pod where it needs to go without scattering. If the captain runs into some crazy deathstars I can just teleport other units to him.

Thoughts?

That's a pretty solid list. Not going overkill on the frags, 2 per squad seems fair. I assume you're doing the 2x Term meltas as a sort of termicide and something that can bully cheap troops? Only concern is the typical DW concern, very low on bodies. Also, not sure on the Rhinos. Maybe they work in your meta, but I'm a huge cheerleader for team drop pod. Although, mixing it up means you never end up with much of your army hanging out in reserves refusing to participate. I might swap 1 rhino to a DP to get a DP frag cannon squad. Then you have 3 pods, all with different specialties so you can get 2 turn 1 and leave the lest efficient one out. Do you use LOS to keep the Captain up? Even a 2+/3++ is pretty fragile to weight of fire on a T4 W3 body.


Edit:

Other news. Just finished a game vs CSM/Orks. He ran a very "fun" list, with 4x Noise Marine squads in rhinos, a custom lord, 2 warbosses in MA with 10 boys each in 2 trukks, a forgefiend, a heldrake and the ork fighter. He gave me turn 1 and castled in the corner. I dropped my pods all around him and locked him in place. He went down swinging, but he simply couldn't get out to get objectives, I wiped out the lootaz and forgefiend turn 1, then focused on the warbosses. With those down, he had almost no reliable way to remove my drop pods (Just melta bombs on sgts), or my dread. We called it at the start of his turn 3, he had lost 3 rhinos, 1 noise marine squad, both warboss trukks and squads, forgefiend, all 3 loota squads. I lost the flamer aquila team, the multi-melta team, lascannon team down to 1 LC and sgt, 1 assault squad, 1 assault squad down to 3 guys. Melta and Plasma aquila teams were at 100%, although combis were spent. All drop pods alive, forming a ring keeping him in a quarter (quarters deployment) of the map.

Lessons: This time I was more careful with combi placement, in case they didn't fire right off the rip. Used shotguns and flamers to really rip up boyz in their trukks (d6 hits each on the open topped). If you plan for it, you can possible render an opponent incapable of dealing with a dread in a section of the board, if at all. Fliers are hell to deal with, simply do not have the tools. Found an error in my list, could exchange 4 lascannons for 3 grav cannons, think that's what I will do for my first list revision. The weight of fire should make a big difference vs MC/GC, kind of a wash vs vehicles.Maybe I'll eventually swap to UM for the real OP gak.

I really wish they had included decals for more chapters. I get that they couldn't have everything molded, but I need a right pauldron Ravenwing symbol for one of my bikers. I am making most of the Marines in the iconic Chapters (A VV Blood Angel, Deathwing Terminator, a Raptors Sniper, and a White Scars Biker), and so I want to get a Ravenwing Biker, but that is a lot easier said than done.

So I am trying to decide what I want to do with my Frag Cannon Aquila Team. On one hand, I want to pair it with my two Assault Cannon Terminators (the Deathwing Terminator and a Space Wolf Termnator), but I am also considering a pair of Heavy Flamer+Meltafist Terminators (Salamanders and Blood Angels). Which is the better option? The Assault Cannon Terminators seem more useful due to Rending, but the HF/Meltafist Terminators are pretty good as well.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
So I am trying to decide what I want to do with my Frag Cannon Aquila Team. On one hand, I want to pair it with my two Assault Cannon Terminators (the Deathwing Terminator and a Space Wolf Termnator), but I am also considering a pair of Heavy Flamer+Meltafist Terminators (Salamanders and Blood Angels). Which is the better option? The Assault Cannon Terminators seem more useful due to Rending, but the HF/Meltafist Terminators are pretty good as well.

More than 2 frag cannons in a squad feels like overkill to me, but if you intend to put more weapons with it, I'd go with AC as they're very flexible guns. Wouldn't bother with the HF, if you're using frag cannons for flaming, you should kill out of the template reach with 4 templates. Meltas would be a decent option if you intend to use the frag cannons for the short range heavy shooting, but then they're wasted on hordes. AC is solid against anything, so they keep the unit from being specialized when tied with frag cannons. Still, you're talking at least 70 pts in upgrades on one squad with just 2 frag cannons and an assault cannon, that's a big investment.

Speaking of investments, looking at my book a bit more, I realized something interesting. You can exchange your bolter for a melta or flamer, and your [edit] CCW for a bolter. While you lose out on the shotgun, you get the same firing capabilities as a combi without the restriction of 1 shot, and in the case of flamers, saving you 5 pts per model.

Yup, meltas + bolters mean they can fight just about anything. (or grav guns/plas guns instead, but then bolters are nearly pointless)

Deathwatch Marines don't have bolt pistols, except for HQ's and Vanguards

Excuse me, they can exchange their CCW.

I am curious why you guys are saying that 4x Frag Cannons is a bit much. Their purpose is to go after heavy infantry and MC/GC in my army. Perhaps getting them Split Fire wouldn't be the worst idea though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am curious why you guys are saying that 4x Frag Cannons is a bit much. Their purpose is to go after heavy infantry and MC/GC in my army. Perhaps getting them Split Fire wouldn't be the worst idea though.

Because you're talking about making a unit that costs 235 points for 5 T4 3+ wounds, and can easily end up overkilling their target, or failing to kill it's target. 8 shots, 6 hits (Assuming rerolls of 1), 5 wounds (Because no wound reroll as no formation), 3 unsaved after inv/Fnp. So, you're going to need 2 of these units to guarantee you kill a riptide. That's 540 pts with drop pods included, to place 10 marines 12" away from the enemy and remove one of their heavy targets. A 5 grav command squad will average better results for 2/3 the cost. It's simply not efficient. Grav cannons are significantly better at the same job. 30 points less you get 20 shots versus 8 shots, at 24" (Assuming you took skyhammer for relentless). Frag cannons shine at being flexible and powerful at two roles, putting two in a squad means you're not wasting a lot of points on the veteran status (8 points per marine just to be deathwatch), and you're still getting a lot of damage output from the heavies (Essentially 4 heavy weapons on 2 bodies).

What happens if you take 4 frag cannons and they bubble wrap their prime targets? What if they have interceptor or Coteaz? What if they have a stealth/shrouded bubble?

Basically the problem with running 4 frags is that you're putting a lot of eggs in one basket, and that basket is ALPHA STRIKE. Why not take 2 squads with 2 each? You become more flexible, both squads put out a lot of shooting, you can hold twice as many objectives, you get more bodies taking advantage of their special ammo (A big part of their price tag), etc.

We're not saying 4 frag cannons in a unit is inherently bad. It has the potential to do a TON of damage. Imagine dropping that on a deathstar unit that got a 1" consolidate out of a combat? 8 S6 rending flamers could annihilate a compact unit.

But it's playing the all or nothing game, which can often end in heartbreak.

Kill Team is all good and all, with all these units slapped together and getting all these special rules and re-rolls. Just had a crazy thought, why not have multiple CADs, all troops take rhino or pods, take whatever HQ you want. Take termies, bikes, vanguard vets, all in pairs or singles. Now you have all these MSUs running all over the table and the opponent will not be able to focus on anything lol. Just have like 6 single Marine bike units all go in some directions arms with power weapons and harassing the crap outta the enemy. Or have like 6 single unit termies deep striking via locator beacon and meltafisting every vehicle they come across. Or have like 6~9 single vanguard vet jumping all over the table with thunderhammer or powerfist for the lulz. You may say the opponents can take down many of these single units in one turn, that maybe true, but if you have rhino rush or drop pod in his/her face, they would be trying to deal with mass meltas/gravs/frag cannons on their home turf and ignore some of your skirmishers.

Here is my list:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++ Deathwatch Multiple MSUs (2000pts) +++

++ Deathwatch: Codex (2016) (Combined Arms Detachment) (790pts) ++

+ HQ (205pts) +

Watch Captain (205pts) [The Beacon Angelis]
··Artificer Armour [Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer]

+ Troops (390pts) +

Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (195pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]

··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


+ Fast Attack (195pts) +

Corvus Blackstar (195pts) [Blackstar Cluster Launcher, Ceramite Plating, Four Stormstrike Missles, Infernum Halo Launcher, Locator Beacon, Twin-linked Lascannon]


++ Deathwatch: Codex (2016) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1210pts) ++

+ HQ (150pts) +

Librarian (150pts) [Mastery Level 2, The Beacon Angelis]
··Terminator Armour [Force Axe, Storm Bolter]

+ Elites (200pts) +

Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


Terminators (100pts)
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]
··Terminator [Power Fist with Auxilliary Meltagun, Storm Bolter]


+ Troops (580pts) +

Veterans (365pts) >>>>Combat Squadding
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Locator Beacon, Storm Bolter]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Meltagun]
··Veteran [Deathwatch Shotgun, Storm Shield]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
··Watch Sergeant [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]


Veterans (215pts)
··Rules: Combat Squads
··Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]
··Veteran [Boltgun, Grav-gun]
··Watch Sergeant [Deathwatch Shotgun, Storm Shield]


+ Fast Attack (280pts) +

Bikers (35pts)
··Biker [Twin-Linked Boltgun]
····Power Weapon [Power Maul]

Bikers (35pts)
··Biker [Twin-Linked Boltgun]
····Power Weapon [Power Maul]

Corvus Blackstar (210pts) [Blackstar Cluster Launcher, Ceramite Plating, Infernum Halo Launcher, Locator Beacon, Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Blackstar Rocket Launcher]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Just a thought....for the lulz, the face you see when they hear you have 9 individual bikes running around the table or 6 individual powerfist welding vanguard vets jumping around.

I have to bring up the point of this one relic... The Banebolts of Eryxia

Ok, there is a profile for use in a Stalker Pattern Botlgun... but no one can take this relic, who can ALSO take a "special weapon" (yes, it's a special weapon and not a ranged weapon... so terrible).

Up until I re-read that, I was using a Purgatus Killteam (stalker all bolters, libby with stalker bolter and the banebolts, and a terminator with cyclone missiles) to snipe-out and instant-death characters (with re-rolls, fearless, and psychic buffs) in units... it was very fun, fluffy, and really cool!

However, I realized I was "cheating"... and now I seem to be stumped because I can't give the libby the stalker boltgun, but can't give anyone else the banebolts... why is there a profile on that relic for the stalker boltgun?!?!

Maddening GW!!! Someone help! Is there any way to actually use the banebotls in a stalker boltgun?!

I think stalker bolters are definitely far superior to regular bolters, but only if you can get in range for "free".

How do we give a squad scout or infiltrate?

I don't usually play imperial armies, all I know of is equipping the liber heresius on an inquisitor and have him join a squad.

Yeah, that's one way. Another is to ally with Raptors, and use Lias Issodon (their named FW Chapter Master) as the warlord, who can give somewhere around 3 "friendly" units infiltrate (he comes stock with the Master of Ambush warlord trait). He also has a special ammo bolter, so would fit nicely in with the Deathwatch. However, that's a pretty large tax... but an army of Raptors, lots of Scouts with rending bolters, and some allied Deathwatch would be pretty cool!

A list that I was playing around with was.

+++ New Roster (1495pts) +++

++ Deathwatch: Codex (2016) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1415pts) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Mission Tactics [Dominatus, Furor, Malleus, Purgatus , Vanator]

Warlord Traits [1 Bane of Monstrosities, 2 Lord of Hidden Knowledge, 3 Castellan of the Black Vault, 4 Bringer of the Red Dawn, 5 Vigilance Incarnate, 6 Master of the Voidhunt]

+ HQ (90pts) +

Librarian (90pts) [Dominus Aegis, Mastery Level 1]
Power Armour [Boltgun, Force Stave]

+ Elites (130pts) +

Terminators (65pts)
Terminator [Cyclone Missle Launcher, Storm Bolter]
Power Weapon [Power Lance]

Terminators (65pts)
Terminator [Cyclone Missle Launcher, Storm Bolter]
Power Weapon [Power Lance]

+ Troops (925pts) +

Veterans (195pts)
Rhino [Storm Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

Veterans (195pts)
Rhino [Storm Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Boltgun, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

Veterans (195pts)
Rhino [Storm Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran [Boltgun, Deathwatch Shotgun]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Chainsword, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]
Veteran with Heavy Weapon [Chainsword, Deathwatch Frag Cannon]

Veterans (340pts)
Corvus Blackstar [Auspex Array, Blackstar Cluster Launcher, Ceramite Plating, Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-linked Blackstar Rocket Launcher]
Veteran [Boltgun, Stalker Pattern Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Stalker Pattern Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Stalker Pattern Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Stalker Pattern Bolter]
Veteran [Boltgun, Stalker Pattern Bolter]

+ Fast Attack (270pts) +

Bikers (90pts)
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]

Bikers (90pts)
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]

Bikers (90pts)
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]
Biker [Chainsword, Twin-Linked Boltgun]

++ Fortifications and Stronghold Assault (2013) (Fortification Detachment) (80pts) ++

+ Fortification (80pts) +

Imperial Bunker (80pts) [Escape Hatch]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

Feel free to rip it apart

 xTHExCLINCHERx wrote:
Yeah, that's one way. Another is to ally with Raptors, and use Lias Issodon (their named FW Chapter Master) as the warlord, who can give somewhere around 3 "friendly" units infiltrate (he comes stock with the Master of Ambush warlord trait). He also has a special ammo bolter, so would fit nicely in with the Deathwatch. However, that's a pretty large tax... but an army of Raptors, lots of Scouts with rending bolters, and some allied Deathwatch would be pretty cool!

Thanks for this. Yeah it might be cool to scout everything up and park your units in razorbacks. That could be good defense when combined with the Aegis Dominus for a juicy 4+ save, maybe toss in sanctuary as well. 90% of your army scouts and does this. Maybe the rest are a small squad to tarpit troublesome targets (high leathality).

I think for that list for the most part you would be better splitting it into a double cad and dropping each bike unit to one man units. You need as many units as you can get with this army just for objectives and board presence.

I also would not bother with the corvus unless you really like it. You are spending a lot of points on it for its transport abilities but are not using them.

Is the Dominus Aegis good for throwing on Stalker Boltgun Squads (through an attached HQ)? Seems like a no-Brainerd. A Divination(for shooting and defense) Librarian with the Dominus Aegis seems like a really good option. Or even one with Geomancy for the ignores cover and shoot through walls power.

Also, after converting a HF/Meltafist Terminator (from a DV Terminator), it really makes me long for an Infernus Heavy Bolter on Terminators. It would be so cool.

Can I get some critique on a 1,000 point list for a doubles tourney?

I can post it in the list sub forum but since this was purely DW I was hoping to get some good advice from other DW players.

My teammate is taking Inquisition. Mostly likely an inquisitor or two and a punch of warbands with 2 monkeys each in chimeras.

Here is my list:

CAD:

Librarian
Level 2
beacon angelis(not sure if I need this)

Veterans x7
5 with bolters
2 with fragcannons
Drop Pod

Veterans x7
5 with bolters
2 with fragcannons
Drop Pod

Veterans x7
5 with bolters
2 with fragcannons
Drop Pod

Bikers x2

Bikers x2

Obviously the idea here is to use the bikers as annoyances or objective capturers/deniers.

My guys drop down in the enemies face, obviously taking the brunt of the fire.. while my teammate tries to shoot everything with his inquisition.\

Thanks for any feedback or pointers.

Solid list,

looks just like standard sternguard suicide drops, but yeah, take shotgun/boltgun combo for regular vets, 7 templates for overwatch is gnarly!

also, meltafist works wonders

and iam just gonna leave this here for all who sees this:

 fr3ddy wrote:
Solid list,

looks just like standard sternguard suicide drops, but yeah, take shotgun/boltgun combo for regular vets, 7 templates for overwatch is gnarly!

also, meltafist works wonders

and iam just gonna leave this here for all who sees this:

is that offical from forge world? I notice the link is on spiky bits

It is official. It just hasn't materialized.