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I cant wait for actual FW confirmation. That'll be the moment I retirr the corvus in my black spear for a real boy Dread.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I cant wait for actual FW confirmation. That'll be the moment I retirr the corvus in my black spear for a real boy Dread.

Indeed. A Deredeo or Contemptor Mortis will go a long way in my army. But I actually like my Corvus Blackstar, so I will be keeping it for now.

Not that I don't like the Corvus, but being able to use the relic to teleport a dread in to combat T1 is better than a possible turn 3 or later Flyer, imo

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Not that I don't like the Corvus, but being able to use the relic to teleport a dread in to combat T1 is better than a possible turn 3 or later Flyer, imo

Can't assault after deep striking. No turn 1 assaults.

Didn't say assault. I suppose combat was too vague, though. Even bringing one into FIRING RANGE after hiding somewhere safe, feels more reliable than the Corvus on average.

I just realized the chapter icons in the Death Masque kit are backwards. Are the normal Deathwatch kits the same way?

zend wrote:
I just realized the chapter icons in the Death Masque kit are backwards. Are the normal Deathwatch kits the same way?

It's so that any symbols with a "facing" like an animal or such are always facing forward toward the enemy when placed on the opposite shoulder from normal (right side) due to getting the DW shoulder pad on the left. If they simply put the shoulder pad on the other shoulder, the animal would be facing backwards in cowardice.

And yeah, there is no difference between those sprues and what you get in the separate boxes.

zend wrote:
I just realized the chapter icons in the Death Masque kit are backwards. Are the normal Deathwatch kits the same way?

Are you talking about the shoulder pauldrons? Yes they are "backwards". In actuality, they are facing the correct direction for Deathwatch.

Guys, I have a few questions here.

1. Everybody wants use The Beacon Angelis in Drop Pod and teleport one unit at the first turn. But RAW is saying "at the start of any friendly Movement phase". But "deep strike" is on the start of movement phase. So basicaly you are going wrong, because teleporting an unit is after the start of movement phase. Or am I missing something?

2. I am playing mainly by ETC rules, but isn't in GW rules something, that you have to have at least one unit on the bord, during deployment? Because in this case I can not follow your fully Drop Pod lists :-( And put on the table 1 Dread or 1 unit of bikes/veterans is very risky.

3. Little noob question. Let's say I want Venator kill team. I need to take 1 unit of Veterans, 1 unit of bikes and 0-1 lib/term/vanguard. Bikes and Veterans have to be together? Because it is really loosing mobility.

Thank you for your answers. I am little lost here.

1. Drop pods and normal "teleportation" type deep strikes happen at the same time. The controlling player chooses the order in which they drop their things.

2. I don't know about etc, but the official rules state you must have a unit of yours on the table by the end of your turn. END. That means you can start your turn with nothing on the board and be fine. You just need to have something at the end of your own turn.

3. They form a single unit for all purposes so yes they need to be together at all times and only on death do they part.

For number two you need something on the table at the end of the game tun, not necessarily your turn so that is something to consider.

Anyone ever try running Librarian heavy? I ran a fun test game of Blood Angels (Using their new stuff) and I brought Deathwatch for the first time at 2500 points. I had 7 Librarians in 7 in my force and they added a lot to my army by allowing me to adapt to his list type via choosing my psychic power disciplines.

Deathwatch seem to be able to get a lot of them on the table so what are your guys' thoughts on them? Anyone have any luck with bringing like 4+ librarians to a more reasonable 1850 point game?

This is the response I got from Forgeworld regarding when we will find out what units we can use from IA2. It looks like they forgot their own frickin' advertisement.

we don't currently have an FAQ or "official" list for what vehicles the death watch can take as Im sure you are aware it is a very recent book and we currently have IA volume 2 which was produce a few years ago, for now We suggest to have the gentleman's agreement over what would be suitable for a "legal" death watch force or failing this you can always go unbound and take nearly anything you want.

At the moment we have not been given any indication that there will be a PDF or update for the official lists but I am sure that with the next update of any appropriate books or models the death watch stamp will be included for any appropriate units.

Thanks again

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Anyone ever try running Librarian heavy? I ran a fun test game of Blood Angels (Using their new stuff) and I brought Deathwatch for the first time at 2500 points. I had 7 Librarians in 7 in my force and they added a lot to my army by allowing me to adapt to his list type via choosing my psychic power disciplines.

Deathwatch seem to be able to get a lot of them on the table so what are your guys' thoughts on them? Anyone have any luck with bringing like 4+ librarians to a more reasonable 1850 point game?

I run four of them.

One to try and snag phase form for a big missile launcher death-star, three others with frag cannon squads to either give divination or extra psychic dakka.

I'm a fan, at least on paper.

Modified my list slightly, got a game tonight.

Black Spear (Still on the fence about this formation)

Libby ML2, Beacon Angelis

Aquila Kill Team
5 Vets, 2 combiplas, 5 shotguns
2 Terms, 2 assault cannons

Aquila Kill Team
5 Vets, 2 Meltas+bolters, 3 bolter+shotgun
2 Terms, 2 Meltafists

Aquila Kill Team
5 Vets, 2 Frag Cannons
2 Terms

Ancient
Dreadnought, Assault Cannon

Skyhammer
2x10 Assault Marines, Vet Sgt w/ PS+MB
5 Devs, 4x MM
5 Devs, 3x Grav

So, I dropped all of the flamers from 1 squad, and the HF off the dread to give that squad 2 Frag cannons. I think it will make the squad more flexible.

I also swapped out 4 lascannons and the extra marine I accidentally had in 1 squad for 3 grav cannons. I'd love to fit a fourth, but I'm not sure where I could trim 35 points efficiently, and 3 is still a lot of shooting.

Other thing I've been pondering is dropping 1-3 assault marines from each squad to free up some points, but, I like having the option to combat squad them. I was considering dropping everything but the melta bombs to put an eviscerator in each squad. I'd give up 2 base attacks with my power weapon, but I'd get S8 and armorbane, although only on one attack. My goal for the AM is to bully scoring units or wreck vehicles by glancing them to death (Last game I used both in tandem to assault a rhino and glance it down, so no one could get out and were all destroyed). Not sure swapping to the evisc would make them better at their job, but it would make them better for killing things like broadsides and dreads.

Any thoughts?

I think you want 10x dev instead of 10x assault marines, combat squadding devs does more for you in regards to targets.

I have found for the black spear it is better to keep the squads cheap and have more of them instead of more points in fewer units.

 Leth wrote:
I think you want 10x dev instead of 10x assault marines, combat squadding devs does more for you in regards to targets.

I have found for the black spear it is better to keep the squads cheap and have more of them instead of more points in fewer units.

Why would I want 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines that can charge the turn they land? 5 assault marines aren't a threat to anything substantial, but they will kill most min sized objective holding units, and will definitely keep things locked up. I'd take 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines for... holding objectives?

If I want lots of cheap squads I'd roll CAD for the obsec. What is the advantage of running MSU in Black Spear?

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I think you want 10x dev instead of 10x assault marines, combat squadding devs does more for you in regards to targets.

I have found for the black spear it is better to keep the squads cheap and have more of them instead of more points in fewer units.

Why would I want 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines that can charge the turn they land? 5 assault marines aren't a threat to anything substantial, but they will kill most min sized objective holding units, and will definitely keep things locked up. I'd take 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines for... holding objectives?

If I want lots of cheap squads I'd roll CAD for the obsec. What is the advantage of running MSU in Black Spear?

Devs pin/prevent overwatch for the AM, and can at separate targets than your grav cannon squads (i.e. grav cannons shoot at a WK, bolters shoot at a squad of jetbikes, which then can be charged by the AM)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I think you want 10x dev instead of 10x assault marines, combat squadding devs does more for you in regards to targets.

I have found for the black spear it is better to keep the squads cheap and have more of them instead of more points in fewer units.

Why would I want 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines that can charge the turn they land? 5 assault marines aren't a threat to anything substantial, but they will kill most min sized objective holding units, and will definitely keep things locked up. I'd take 5 bolter marines over 5 assault marines for... holding objectives?

If I want lots of cheap squads I'd roll CAD for the obsec. What is the advantage of running MSU in Black Spear?

Devs pin/prevent overwatch for the AM, and can shoot at other targets so your grav cannons won't be wasted.

I don't see any upside, honestly. The AM are assaulting things that shouldn't really be able to hurt them in return, and as BT ( I should have mentioned that), losing a model or two to overwatch benefits me from the rage.

I suppose you can try to pin shooting units that you're not going to assault (Broadsides), but I feel I'd be better off assaulting them.

EDIT:

Had my game. Same Chaos/Orks player as last time. He dropped sorcerer for a lord, dropped fliers to make boyz into ard boyz, MA warbosses into painboyz and mekboys. Added a havok squad.

Assault marines managed to surround his Warlord rhino and wreck it with a long charge range turn 1. Ignores cover shooting picked up 2 loota squads, other assault squad brought Havoks to 1 but they didn't run so I got to hide them from combat. Lost a lot of marines to doom sirens, and ard boyz really fethed my world up on the charge, but in the end I used multiple squads to split their attacks once they were locked and the terminators did work with the powerfists. Gravs did great, much better than lascannons. Not quite as good vs trukks or Rhinos, I'd say, but much more flexible and overall way better. Frag Cannons are more flexible, prefer them over the 2 flamers+2 heavy flamers, although only a small sample size of games to compare them. With the aquila team, they put out a lot of almost guaranteed wounds, and the rends are nice. Wish I still had HF on dread, but, seems to be worth it for the frags.

So what are the common sizes and builds for Kill-Teams?

I've been running that ten-man Aquila team in a drop pod so far and the results have been mixed. They tend to hit hard, but die the next turn when the rest of my opponent's army focuses on them.

That and there is a question of cost, given that 500pts are typically invested in a ten-man squad that usually dies quickly. So far I'm trying to rethink my approach to things.

Gree wrote:
So what are the common sizes and builds for Kill-Teams?

I've been running that ten-man Aquila team in a drop pod so far and the results have been mixed. They tend to hit hard, but die the next turn when the rest of my opponent's army focuses on them.

That and there is a question of cost, given that 500pts are typically invested in a ten-man squad that usually dies quickly. So far I'm trying to rethink my approach to things.

I've been doing 5 vets, 2 terminators, with 2 combis and 2 term weapons. Terminators can be used to tank, or you can try to shield them and keep them up to have powerfists floating around. They end up just shy of 300 pts, are pretty flexible and hit fairly hard.

Ay, mixed results? Go with MSUs, usually works better, if you can keep the point to ~250 / squad or less is better.

For positive results try these, worked for me, made the other player worry.

For anti-heavy infantry/superheavy/monsters and whatnot (whatevas kill team)
5 vets (all melta/boltgun or grav/boltgun, not combi), 2 termies with meltafist and cyclone missile. Deep strike near said target and boom goes the heavy thing
If assaulting out of land raider or corvus I used 4 vets (2 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1 blackshield with giant hammer, Watch captain or Artemis, Termies with hammer/shield, and vanguard vets with shield or whatnots.

For general purpose (malleus, furor, dominatus, strategium)
5 vets (3 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1~2 termies (meltafist, hammer/shield, whatever you want really), 1~2 bike (for split fire and doing the whole slinky effect while moving around and put up front of T5 rolls), 1~2 vanguard vet (reroll charges and whatnot), 0~1 HQ (for extra punchiness)

Ally with Skittarii for extra craziness, put any HQ with beacon angelis and scout with Ruststalkers, make enemy cry tears. Drop pod everywhere turn one, and with captain w/jump pack scouting with ruststalkers, guiding percision suicide termies and other deep strike from reserve.

 fr3ddy wrote:
Ay, mixed results? Go with MSUs, usually works better, if you can keep the point to ~250 / squad or less is better.

For positive results try these, worked for me, made the other player worry.

For anti-heavy infantry/superheavy/monsters and whatnot (whatevas kill team)
5 vets (all melta/boltgun or grav/boltgun, not combi), 2 termies with meltafist and cyclone missile. Deep strike near said target and boom goes the heavy thing
If assaulting out of land raider or corvus I used 4 vets (2 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1 blackshield with giant hammer, Watch captain or Artemis, Termies with hammer/shield, and vanguard vets with shield or whatnots.

For general purpose (malleus, furor, dominatus, strategium)
5 vets (3 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1~2 termies (meltafist, hammer/shield, whatever you want really), 1~2 bike (for split fire and doing the whole slinky effect while moving around and put up front of T5 rolls), 1~2 vanguard vet (reroll charges and whatnot), 0~1 HQ (for extra punchiness)


Ally with Skittarii for extra craziness, put any HQ with beacon angelis and scout with Ruststalkers, make enemy cry tears. Drop pod everywhere turn one, and with captain w/jump pack scouting with ruststalkers, guiding percision suicide termies and other deep strike from reserve.

1. Black Shields can't have giant hammers, unless you are referring to regular thunderhammers.
2. Bikers in squads.....You don't get to use the biker's T5 until all other models are equal to or less than the number of T4 or less models in the unit.

 fr3ddy wrote:
Ay, mixed results? Go with MSUs, usually works better, if you can keep the point to ~250 / squad or less is better.

For positive results try these, worked for me, made the other player worry.

For anti-heavy infantry/superheavy/monsters and whatnot (whatevas kill team)
5 vets (all melta/boltgun or grav/boltgun, not combi), 2 termies with meltafist and cyclone missile. Deep strike near said target and boom goes the heavy thing
If assaulting out of land raider or corvus I used 4 vets (2 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1 blackshield with giant hammer, Watch captain or Artemis, Termies with hammer/shield, and vanguard vets with shield or whatnots.

For general purpose (malleus, furor, dominatus, strategium)
5 vets (3 shotgun/boltgun, 2 frag cannon), 1~2 termies (meltafist, hammer/shield, whatever you want really), 1~2 bike (for split fire and doing the whole slinky effect while moving around and put up front of T5 rolls), 1~2 vanguard vet (reroll charges and whatnot), 0~1 HQ (for extra punchiness)

Ally with Skittarii for extra craziness, put any HQ with beacon angelis and scout with Ruststalkers, make enemy cry tears. Drop pod everywhere turn one, and with captain w/jump pack scouting with ruststalkers, guiding percision suicide termies and other deep strike from reserve.

100% agreed on MSU. If you're not running the kill teams, small squads is most efficient. We don't pay a sgt tax, so the biggest decision to make is 10 man combat squad, vs 2x5 man. 2 squads gets 2 pods, but is always 4 kp. 2 squads can cover much more board, but also more chances to have bad luck with reserves and deep strike location. It's a pretty even trade, really depends on personal preference and what you need in your army.

I would highly reccomend not doing 5 specials, and 35 points of weapons on the termies. You can't fire the meltafist and the cyclone, you can only fire a storm bolter with the cyclone. Not only that, but the sheer cost of that squad. With meltas, you're talking 310 without a drop pod. 335 if you use gravs instead of meltas. You're quite likely to overkill whatever you shoot, except a Knight, which you're still not likely to kill. You'd probably have better luck landing 2x5 man squads with 4 meltas each on either side of a knight, so it can't use it's shield vs both.

That general purpose squad is going to be deep striking via black spear, or walking? Walking seems like way too many points for something so fragile. We 100% need to be deep striking most of our army, except perhaps for stalker squads and 1/2 man CML term squads.

Re: Knights....good players bubble wrap or place their knights and angle the shields so you can't sandwich them. The only remaining tactic is fire away from distance and hope he rolls low in the shields and you roll high on the penetration and damage shots. While dropping meltas is good against alot of armor, Knights, at least against the smart players, its not. ( you might still get a long shot on the Knight, but you'll be rolling 8+d6 only...)

General Hobbs wrote:


Re: Knights....good players bubble wrap or place their knights and angle the shields so you can't sandwich them. The only remaining tactic is fire away from distance and hope he rolls low in the shields and you roll high on the penetration and damage shots. While dropping meltas is good against alot of armor, Knights, at least against the smart players, its not. ( you might still get a long shot on the Knight, but you'll be rolling 8+d6 only...)

I wasn't saying that dropping melta teams is an effective way of dealing with knights, but that smaller, cheaper units are likely going to end up being more effective than plunking down one massive unit and hoping you get lucky.

That is true. I was referring to the tactic of getting a unit on both sides of the Knight and why it doesn't work.

Unless someone found a way to delay drop squads until turn 3....( 2 turns of movement/killing bubblewrap are probably the only way to clear a path....)

 fr3ddy wrote:
Ay, mixed results? Go with MSUs, usually works better, if you can keep the point to ~250 / squad or less is better.

I'll think about going MSU. That seems to fit the Deathwatch theme more.

 fr3ddy wrote:

Ally with Skittarii for extra craziness, put any HQ with beacon angelis and scout with Ruststalkers, make enemy cry tears. Drop pod everywhere turn one, and with captain w/jump pack scouting with ruststalkers, guiding percision suicide termies and other deep strike from reserve.

I'm primarily looking at the Deathwatch as an additional force to my vanilla Marines. I don't think I'd have the points to ally in Skittarii. Maybe when I expand my Deathwatch more.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

100% agreed on MSU. If you're not running the kill teams, small squads is most efficient.

I must admit I find the thought of running Aquilas quite attractive. I've been running Librarians with my sole one, but I've been thinking about switching to Terminators.

I'll try a regular squad of Veterans in an Allied Detachment, but I'm not sure I want to trade the Re-roll 1's for Objective Secured. That's more the job of the rest of my army.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

That general purpose squad is going to be deep striking via black spear, or walking? Walking seems like way too many points for something so fragile. We 100% need to be deep striking most of our army, except perhaps for stalker squads and 1/2 man CML term squads.

I can't be run a Black Spear. I don't have enough stuff for it. Ideally I just have a single squad acting as allies to my Imperial Fists. They typically go in a Drop Pod.

I did consider a big 10-Man Stalker squad that hides in a pieces of terrain with Bolster Defenses from a Techmarine. I have not yet tried out the Stalker bolters though.

If you just want an ally squad, run a single aquila kill team. Can throw a libby, 5 vets, 2 terms in a pod. Throw 2-4 special/heavies across the unit. Take Beacon Angelis if you have other stuff that needs accurate deep striking.

So I’ve been playing some games recently. The big 10-man Kill-Team isn’t really making it’s points back. I keep on running into the same scenario over and over again. They drop in, kill a squad and then get charged by multiple units in my opponent’s turn.

I'm increasingly convinced that MSU is probably the way to go with Deathwatch. Or at least with deep-striking units. I’ve been considering a 10-man Stalker squad that hangs back on an objective.

I believe I’ll be using Terminators in order to make my teams into Aquila formations instead of a Librarian. The Librarian is a good force multiplier but rather fragile and expensive to be on the front lines. I’m going to start experimenting with Hammernators to improve squad durability.