Superman vs. Space marines.

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**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Melissia wrote:
A more interesting DC vs 40K battle would be Batfamily vs Genestealers, heh.

I don't have that. But I have Batman - Dead End.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
Selym wrote:
Llamahead wrote:
Who do you think Roboute Gulliman actually is anyway?
The most perfectest strategist ever. He is able to predict every move Superman makes before Superman makes them.

In fact he already has. It's one of the more obscure chapters of the Codex Astartes.

Are you talking about that guy that couldn't predict the whole Horus Heresy?
He sure has an eye for details

.

**Traditio**

Sternguard veterans with kryptonite bolter rounds. Marines win. Either Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, naturally.

Suffer not the alien to live!

**Happyjew**

Traditio wrote:
Sternguard veterans with kryptonite bolter rounds. Marines win. Either Ultramarines or Imperial Fists, naturally.

Suffer not the alien to live!

And where are they getting these magical kryptonite bolter rounds?
How well would Kryptonite bolter rounds even work? Would Kryptonite function perfectly as a substitute material? Or would the stress be so high, that the Kryptonite is destroyed upon exiting the barrel?

**amanita**

For those saying Superman doesn't have any psychic powers, I have a question. We know he can fly, but how? How does Superman simply ignore the pull of gravity (when convenient) but in addition propel himself through space? There is no thrust, no need of air current (although he does stick his arms forward) and yet he can achieve light speed by sheer force of will. Super telekinesis? Bending reality by thought? Sounds like a pretty spectacularly gifted psyker to me.

**Ashiraya**

Happyjew wrote:
How well would Kryptonite bolter rounds even work? Would Kryptonite function perfectly as a substitute material? Or would the stress be so high, that the Kryptonite is destroyed upon exiting the barrel?

Evidently Kryptonite works even in gas form (see BvS) so making rounds from it should do just fine.

Once they make Superman no tougher than a normal man, the explosive bit does the rest.

Of course, getting them will be a bit tough. If we assume there is just Superman, and no Kryptonite, then obviously he wins until he meets a psyker.

**Selym**

amanita wrote:
For those saying Superman doesn't have any psychic powers, I have a question. We know he can fly, but how? How does Superman simply ignore the pull of gravity (when convenient) but in addition propel himself through space? There is no thrust, no need of air current (although he does stick his arms forward) and yet he can achieve light speed by sheer force of will. Super telekinesis? Bending reality by thought? Sounds like a pretty spectacularly gifted psyker to me.

Because superman is a god.

He somehow is empowered by yellow suns, and weakened by red ones.

Despite the fact that our sun is white, and that 99% of superman's feats make no damn sense.

**Traditio**

Ashiraya wrote:Evidently Kryptonite works even in gas form (see BvS) so making rounds from it should do just fine.

Once they make Superman no tougher than a normal man, the explosive bit does the rest.

All the more since Superman wouldn't even get an armor save. I'm pretty sure that wearing your underwear on the outside doesn't even confer a 6+.

**amanita**

Traditio wrote:
Ashiraya wrote:Evidently Kryptonite works even in gas form (see BvS) so making rounds from it should do just fine.

Once they make Superman no tougher than a normal man, the explosive bit does the rest.

All the more since Superman wouldn't even get an armor save. I'm pretty sure that wearing your underwear on the outside doesn't even confer a 6+.

You rarely see his pajamas even get dirty much less torn. They are made of a material that makes adamantium look like tissue paper.

**General Annoyance**

Traditio wrote:

All the more since Superman wouldn't even get an armor save. I'm pretty sure that wearing your underwear on the outside doesn't even confer a 6+.

Nah, those rock hard muscles give him a 2+ abs save

**Ashiraya**

I thought abs gave a 5+ save?

See Catachans.

**Bobthehero**

Abs give a 2+, the flak jacket lowers it to 5+, the Catachan keep on wearing their jackets on basis of fair play, and for the challenge.

**Insectum7**

Melissia wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Truly, I don't understand the logic here.
Yes, I can tell.

Simply put: I was discussing the narratives of DCU vs 40k. One is one of rising heroics, the other one is of declining heroics. This is relevant because people keep bringing up more and more ways in which some Space Marine or other obtains kryptonite-- ignoring the fact that even when Superman's enemies DO obtain Kryptonite, even when they DO kill him, he comes back and wins anyway. Because that's the narrative of the DCU.

The heroes of the DCU are always struggling to be greater, and succeed time and again. Great feats of heroism push the world to greater heights, and only more and more deadly, clever, and/or unpredictable foes can upset the new status quo. Its list of heroes is growing, as is their deeds and accomplishments-- and when just one dies, it's a major event. Because they're not supposed to. They face unimaginable odds and succeed-- perhaps imperfectly, perhaps temporarily, perhaps only eventually, but they succeed nonetheless. When the villains win, it's a shocking and rare event-- and often gets overturned rather quickly, if not instantly.

By contrast, the Imperium of Man is in decline. Its heroes die by the billion, nameless and forgotten. Its legends fade away in to the annals of time as either corpses who fought against overwhelming odds and held off as long as they could... or as nefarious, corrupted criminals who seek to destroy all that is good about humanity. Even the Ultramarines suffer this, having lost so much in the Tyrannic wars that they're a pale shadow of what they used to be. Just comparing 30k to 40k shows this much. The villains usually win, which is why the Imperium is slowly, inevitably shrinking.

The thread has basically ended up being "well let's see how we can twist the situation to ensure Superman loses", and ultimately, that's pointless, a little bit mean-spirited, and does a disservice to both Superman and the Astartes.

Hmm, I think I got it right the first time. I'll stand by my post. Hope in the 40K verse comes not from a godlike Xenos, but from brutish and amoral use of human technology and sacrifice. An 'artificially pure' symbol of hope like Superman would get rolled over "nameless and forgotten" to retain the narrative.

You're also relying on a debateable interpretation of the 40K verse, in which "Marines are bound to fail." (Since when were the Ultramarines a "pale shadow of what they used to be" post Tyrannic wars? How is that not a disservice to the Astartes?) Even if we go along with this interpretation, it can also easily be used to destroy Superman. Superman becomes a lost symbol of what could have been, and the 40K universe goes on in it's stagnant, ignorant cruelty.

Anyways I've said my peace, I don't have much hope for this thread.

**Melissia**

"debatable interpretation"

To quote the standard blurb used to describe 40k:

It is the 41st Millennium. For more than a hundred centuries The Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth. He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods, and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies. He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology. He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium for whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day, so that he may never truly die.

Yet even in his deathless state, the Emperor continues his eternal vigilance. Mighty battlefleets cross the daemon-infested miasma of the Warp, the only route between distant stars, their way lit by the Astronomican, the psychic manifestation of the Emperor's will. Vast armies give battle in his name on uncounted worlds. Greatest amongst his soldiers are the Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines, bio-engineered super-warriors. Their comrades in arms are legion: the Imperial Guard and countless planetary defence forces, the ever vigilant Inquisition and the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus to name only a few. But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from aliens, heretics, mutants - and worse.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

Emphasis mine.

To quote Betrayal at Calth:

The screams of the innocent, the pleas of the righteous resound to the cruel laughter of Dark Gods. Suffering and damnation await should the Emperor fail and the war be lost.

The age of knowledge and enlightenment has ended.
The Age of Darkness has begun.

You can claim my statement about 40k is "debatable", but I think it represents the official Games Workshop narrative.

**Plumbumbarum**

Superman wins, marines die of laughter seeing his outfit. The humourless who survive (read: Ultramarines) die a while later after hearing that he's actualy called Superman.

**Insectum7**

Melissia wrote:
"debatable interpretation"

To quote the standard blurb used to describe 40k:

But for all their multitudes, they are barely enough to hold off the ever-present threat from aliens, heretics, mutants - and worse.

Well there you have it. Barely enough also means "enough". AKA 51% of the vote, or the Millenium Falcon barely makes it out of the Death Star as it's exploding.

**DeffDred**

Depends on the version of Superman. Golden age? Silver? Bronze?

Superman isn't invulnerable. His atomic structure is incredibly dense (meaning he would be too heavy to actually stand on anything but solid ground). Power Weapons cleave between atoms (mono-molecular edge). Thus a power sword can cut through Superman. A phase weapon, even more so. Superman is also weak against electricity. So all the electrical charge from a power weapon would also stun him. He is weak against sonic attacks and high pressure. Batman bring him to his knees with a sonic weapon that's not even as powerful as Black Canarys scream.

Magic. Superman has almost nothing to protect himself against magic. Without Dr. Fate, Entrigan the Demon ect Superman stands no chance against any beta or higher psyker.

"I can lift a mountain!" - Supes

"I can make you into a mountain!" - Alpha level psyker.

**Melissia**

Insectum7 wrote:
Barely enough also means "enough"

But because the number of Marines are constantly dwindling while the enemies of the Imperium are growing, with the old heroes dying off, it's only "just barely enough" for now-- and no promise of that in the future. All that remains is for the Imperium's defenders to make a long series of glorious, bloody final stands, trying to wound its invaders as much as possible, before the end.

**Selym**

Melissia wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
Barely enough also means "enough"

But because the number of Marines are constantly dwindling while the enemies of the Imperium are growing, with the old heroes dying off, it's only "just barely enough" for now-- and no promise of that in the future. All that remains is for the Imperium's defenders to make a long series of glorious, bloody final stands, trying to wound its invaders as much as possible, before the end.

Sleep tight, kids, and remember: everything is doomed to fail eventually!

**Melissia**

Yep. In fact, it's only through the Emperor's efforts in the Warp that the Imperium holds at all. And the Golden Throne is not going to last forever... it's malfunctioning, and the AdMech has no way of repairing it save for thorugh dark arts that they don't really understand.

**Traditio**

Additional answer to the OP:

Clearly, this just isn't a fair match-up. Superman is literally intended to be a nigh-invincible superhuman that could, quite literally, beat the tar out of super saiyan [whatever blood number you want] Goku.

He's literally written as essentially invincible, all powerful Mary Sue of limitless power who can beat all odds.

Space marines are just genetically altered super soldiers. They have limits. They aren't all powerful. They don't even really have super powers.

Ultimately, this is what it comes down to:

Do the space marines have the one thing that can kill superman? No? Welp, there's another boring plot-line in which the invincible, all powerful Mary Sue wins...again.

The space marines have Kryptonite? Cool. Superman is dead in a heartbeat. Why? Because space marines aren't Marvel and DC supervillains who seem to love nothing more than making bad decisions and letting the hero win (incidentally, a reason why 2000 AD is far superior to Marvel and DC: the "heroes" and "villains," at least in the Judge Dredd universe, aren't constantly making stupid decision and forgetting their capabilities).

No. The space marines have kryptonite. Superman is within bolter range. Superman is dead.

And let's not even kid ourselves. In a match between Superman and the marines, neither wins. The orks win.

Because they believe that Superman is just another humie. Therefore, he would be. Because orks are the cleverest and the brightest.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Traditio wrote:
The space marines have Kryptonite? Cool. Superman is dead in a heartbeat. Why? Because space marines aren't Marvel and DC supervillains who seem to love nothing more than making bad decisions and letting the hero win

No. The space marines have kryptonite. Superman is within bolter range. Superman is dead.

Except that the marines ain't able to trick Superman into Kryptonite like, say, Batman could. Marines have Kryptonite bolt? Well, Superman flies faster than a flying bolt anyway, remember.

The only real answer of “Who would win between Superman and Space Marines” is “Whoever the author decides” anyway.

Traditio wrote:
And let's not even kid ourselves. In a match between Superman and the marines, neither wins. The orks win.

Because they believe that Superman is just another humie. Therefore, he would be. Because orks are the cleverest and the brightest.

Ahah no. Didn't work to stop the Emperor and Horus, and they didn't happen to fly around using Warlord Titans as club to beat the crap out of everyone, did they? It's hard to mistake Superman for a normal human.

**Selym**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

The only real answer of “Who would win between Superman and Space Marines” is “Whoever the author decides” anyway.

That's a cop-out argument, and you know it

If a mouse fought the entirety of the IOM's military power, the author has the power to make the mouse win. That's how written works work.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Selym wrote:
If a mouse fought the entirety of the IOM's military power, the author has the power to make the mouse win.

Definitely. Then that mouse will get to be an extremely powerful character of whatever universe this author was writing in. And if the author finds a compelling way to make it win, certainly a cool character. If not, a stupid Mary-Sue, or maybe a boring non-character. I don't see a problem here. It's not like we are talking about real-life event where accurate prediction of “who would win” can have real, important influence on real, meaningful decision.

**Selym**

Yes, but it does point out that we cannot rely on arguments of "It's up to the author". Hypothetical arguments like "who would win" can only be discussed if we assume there is an alternate reality in which both characters/forces exist, have their powers, and decided to fight.

**Green flame**

Huh, look at that, I started a war.

**Selym**

Green flame wrote:
Huh, look at that, I started a war.

The legions of Subparman will prevail!

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Selym wrote:
Hypothetical arguments like "who would win" can only be discussed if we assume there is an alternate reality in which both characters/forces exist, have their powers, and decided to fight.

Still 100% rely on the author of the story. There are just SO MANY things that matters in how the confrontation would go…
And remember: Squirrel Girl beat Doctor Doom, Deadpool and Wolverine (yeah I literally just googled that gak up).

**Selym**

Were those characters beaten up while they were the main protagonists?

**Ashiraya**

That sounds like fanfiction.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Selym wrote:
Were those characters beaten up while they were the main protagonists?

It was off screen, because that's where Squirrel Girl beats everyone, even Thanos.