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http://www.theladbible.com/more/fail-police-shoot-dead-deaf-mute-father-when-he-was-signing-to-them-20160823

A young deaf and mute father has been shot dead by police as he tried to communicate with them using sign language.

Daniel Kevin Harris, 29, was initially pulled over for speeding. The incident took place in North Carolina last Thursday (18th August).

The father-of-one was killed by a trooper just feet from his home.

According to the police, trooper Jermaine Saunders attempted to pull Harris over but he hadn't stopped initially which led to a brief chase. After he stopped, they claim that he got out of his car and there was a 'brief encounter' which led to the fatal shooting.

However, eyewitnesses claim that Harris was shot 'almost immediately' after getting out of his car. He was unarmed and attempting to communicate with them according to WCNC.

Should we have a generic "Police kill innocent people for doing nothing dangerous" thread?

Oh just stick around, I'm sure we'll have someone saying this was a justified shot by the thug.

In before he was making gang signs at the officer not trying to talk to him and the blue lives matter crowd

Oh God...
That is just a new level of sadness. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the US police.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Oh God...
That is just a new level of sadness. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the US police.

I think Police in general the world over are equally as incompetent and stupid.

Here in the UK, we had a case a few days ago of a dangerous dog that was seized by police( it's owner was an idiot) because it was running around biting people.

Police said the dog was fine, then gave it back to the owner. The dog then killed somebody...

Don't get me wrong, this incident a tragedy, and the officers in question deserve jail time, but incompetence, stupidity, and dereliction of duty is not unique to the USA.

Sadly not surprised. With the rampant stories of police brutality and the Dallas shootings, no wonder police are on edge and trigger happy.

Does that excuse this behavior? Absolutely not, but I expect these innocent shootings to keep happening.

Still though. LEO had a vehicle between him the vic. Should have waited to see what the handicap was. Thought it was law to post signs indicating Deaf Person? If so then the LEO is double stupid and his situational awareness sucks a$$

Edit

If there was a handicap plate on vehicle

News story: http://www.wcnc.com/news/crime/nchp-trooper-involved-in-deadly-shooting/301939728

I'll note the news folks say he was 'likely trying to communicate with sign language'.

Chase started on a highway, guy did not pull over. Exited highway and kept going. Pulled into his driveway and exited the car. Deaf or not, you probably want to pull over when the cops want you to do so. Sounds like there is dash and body cam footage so the investigation should be able to show what actually happened, and hopefully the NC State Troopers do the right thing.

It won't be the first time a guy lead the cops on a chase and then got shot... Harris seems to have been convicted of resisting an officer before ( http://heavy.com/news/2016/08/daniel-kevin-harris-k-charlotte-north-carolina-police-shooting-hearing-speech-impaired-deaf-mute-sign-language-jermaine-saunders-killed-trooper-patrol/ ). The videos will hopefully put this to rest one way or another.

One has to wonder how many people need to die in situations that makes one contemplate if police officers are being trained at all before the faithful abandon the thinly veiled veneer that nothing is wrong.

Well, regardless of the tragedy (and it is one), it is a rare occurrence. Millions of cop to non-cop interactions every year do not end up in any type of use of force, vastly outnumbering those which do end in violence (justifiable or not).

I submit that is pretty damned indicative that there is indeed some training going on.

 CptJake wrote:
News story: http://www.wcnc.com/news/crime/nchp-trooper-involved-in-deadly-shooting/301939728

I'll note the news folks say he was 'likely trying to communicate with sign language'.

Chase started on a highway, guy did not pull over. Exited highway and kept going. Pulled into his driveway and exited the car. Deaf or not, you probably want to pull over when the cops want you to do so. Sounds like there is dash and body cam footage so the investigation should be able to show what actually happened, and hopefully the NC State Troopers do the right thing.

It won't be the first time a guy lead the cops on a chase and then got shot... Harris seems to have been convicted of resisting an officer before ( http://heavy.com/news/2016/08/daniel-kevin-harris-k-charlotte-north-carolina-police-shooting-hearing-speech-impaired-deaf-mute-sign-language-jermaine-saunders-killed-trooper-patrol/ ). The videos will hopefully put this to rest one way or another.

Well that didn't take long

 CptJake wrote:
News story: http://www.wcnc.com/news/crime/nchp-trooper-involved-in-deadly-shooting/301939728

I'll note the news folks say he was 'likely trying to communicate with sign language'.

Chase started on a highway, guy did not pull over. Exited highway and kept going. Pulled into his driveway and exited the car. Deaf or not, you probably want to pull over when the cops want you to do so. Sounds like there is dash and body cam footage so the investigation should be able to show what actually happened, and hopefully the NC State Troopers do the right thing.

It won't be the first time a guy lead the cops on a chase and then got shot... Harris seems to have been convicted of resisting an officer before ( http://heavy.com/news/2016/08/daniel-kevin-harris-k-charlotte-north-carolina-police-shooting-hearing-speech-impaired-deaf-mute-sign-language-jermaine-saunders-killed-trooper-patrol/ ). The videos will hopefully put this to rest one way or another.

Quick on the character assassinations. Not surprising that a man who is deaf and mute would want to resist officers if he was completely unaware he had commit a crime.

Honestly though i read that he was "blind" mute and deft. but i think i might of listens to pinball wizard on the way to work.

But still how did he not notice the police lights in any of his mirrors.

still a terrible situation for everyone involved and i will hold judgment till more evidence comes to light.

Here's the thing...

The police officer probably had the information in his car, as he was chasing this guy, that this person of interest was deaf.

I don't know what NC's state law... but, in MO and IL, you are REQUIRED to document with the DMV that you're deaf, wear hearing aids, and have corrected visions. (it's also coded on your license)

If that's true in NC, then as this officer tailing the driver, that information ought to be at his finger tips...

So, it's possible that he missed that, assumed the worst and shot the guy.

Or...

We're not getting the complete picture of the event that transpired.

 whembly wrote:
Here's the thing...

The police officer probably had the information in his car, as he was chasing this guy, that this person of interest was deaf.

I don't know what NC's state law... but, in MO and IL, you are REQUIRED to document with the DMV that you're deaf, wear hearing aids, and have corrected visions. (it's also coded on your license)

If that's true in NC, then as this officer tailing the driver, that information ought to be at his finger tips...

So, it's possible that he missed that, assumed the worst and shot the guy.

Or...

We're not getting the complete picture of the event that transpired.

Or the guy might of not indicated it or became deft and mute after he got the license and never bothered to update it

just to be fair to both sides of that part.

In my state you don't get out of the car unless told to. I know that differs between states though.

yellowfever wrote:
In my state you don't get out of the car unless told to. I know that differs between states though.

Hardly justifies shooting someone though.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Oh God...
That is just a new level of sadness. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the US police.

The good news? It's not racism, they are just as happy to shoot white people who look at them funny.

If he was unarmed, waiving ones hands in the air is no reason to get shot. Maybe you get arrested for evading, but not shot. I can not think of any scenario in which this would be justified, as long as he was not armed. I can say feth you to a police officer, I might get inconvenienced by him, but I shouldn't get shot by him.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Oh God...
That is just a new level of sadness. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the US police.

I think Police in general the world over are equally as incompetent and stupid.

Here in the UK, we had a case a few days ago of a dangerous dog that was seized by police( it's owner was an idiot) because it was running around biting people.

Police said the dog was fine, then gave it back to the owner. The dog then killed somebody...

Don't get me wrong, this incident a tragedy, and the officers in question deserve jail time, but incompetence, stupidity, and dereliction of duty is not unique to the USA.

You are overegging this.

The dog in question was seized by the police due to public fears, it was NOT running around biting people. Were it to do so a mandatory order to put down the dog would have occurred, as that is the law.
Instead there was concerns from the public because it was reported to be a banned breed, a justifiable cause to seize a dog under the Dangerous Dogs act. It was returned because it was not, there was at that time no individual evidence against the dog, so it was unlawful to withhold the animal from its owner.

Concerns that the dog was dangerous were later proven correct, but only by happenstance.

The press didn't keep up with this story because if you scratch the surface the police did nothing wrong and were tied by the law anyway. It is coincidental that things worked out that way.


http://www.irishnews.com/news/uknews/2016/08/17/news/dangerous-dog-returned-to-owner-kills-man-out-walking-656107/
http://metro.co.uk/2016/08/16/man-killed-in-attack-by-dog-that-was-returned-to-owner-despite-danger-fears-6071411/

 redleger wrote:
If he was unarmed, waiving ones hands in the air is no reason to get shot. Maybe you get arrested for evading, but not shot. I can not think of any scenario in which this would be justified, as long as he was not armed. I can say feth you to a police officer, I might get inconvenienced by him, but I shouldn't get shot by him.

Daddy Frazzled had a saying. "get off my yard you damn hippy!" oh, wait, not that one, this one "there's right and then there's dead right."
I agree what you should be able to do. But in the real world, you get dead right. And thats the problem.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Oh God...
That is just a new level of sadness. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the US police.

I think Police in general the world over are equally as incompetent and stupid.

Here in the UK, we had a case a few days ago of a dangerous dog that was seized by police( it's owner was an idiot) because it was running around biting people.

Police said the dog was fine, then gave it back to the owner. The dog then killed somebody...

Don't get me wrong, this incident a tragedy, and the officers in question deserve jail time, but incompetence, stupidity, and dereliction of duty is not unique to the USA.

You are overegging this.

The dog in question was seized by the police due to public fears, it was NOT running around biting people. Were it to do so a mandatory order to put down the dog would have occurred, as that is the law.
Instead there was concerns from the public because it was reported to be a banned breed, a justifiable cause to seize a dog under the Dangerous Dogs act. It was returned because it was not, there was at that time no individual evidence against the dog, so it was unlawful to withhold the animal from its owner.

Concerns that the dog was dangerous were later proven correct, but only by happenstance.

The press didn't keep up with this story because if you scratch the surface the police did nothing wrong and were tied by the law anyway. It is coincidental that things worked out that way.


http://www.irishnews.com/news/uknews/2016/08/17/news/dangerous-dog-returned-to-owner-kills-man-out-walking-656107/
http://metro.co.uk/2016/08/16/man-killed-in-attack-by-dog-that-was-returned-to-owner-despite-danger-fears-6071411/

As far as I'm concerned, the police fethed up big time...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:
Well, regardless of the tragedy (and it is one), it is a rare occurrence. Millions of cop to non-cop interactions every year do not end up in any type of use of force, vastly outnumbering those which do end in violence (justifiable or not).

I submit that is pretty damned indicative that there is indeed some training going on.

Yeah, but is it the right training though?

We had this major debate during the countries with an unarmed police force thread, and the consensus was that other countries tend to focus on de-escalation first, and pulling a gun is a last resort...

I totally understand that US cops, for obvious reasons, have to assume that people are open carry or concealed carry,

but I can't help but think the default mode for US police is shoot first, questions later...

Just my opinion...

yellowfever wrote:
In my state you don't get out of the car unless told to. I know that differs between states though.

In the US, that's fairly uniform.

You stay in the car until told to get out.

 Desubot wrote:
Honestly though i read that he was "blind" mute and deft.

Clearly he was a much younger Colonel Stinkmeaner

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Oh God...
That is just a new level of sadness. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the US police.

I think Police in general the world over are equally as incompetent and stupid.

Here in the UK, we had a case a few days ago of a dangerous dog that was seized by police( it's owner was an idiot) because it was running around biting people.

Police said the dog was fine, then gave it back to the owner. The dog then killed somebody...

Don't get me wrong, this incident a tragedy, and the officers in question deserve jail time, but incompetence, stupidity, and dereliction of duty is not unique to the USA.

You are overegging this.

The dog in question was seized by the police due to public fears, it was NOT running around biting people. Were it to do so a mandatory order to put down the dog would have occurred, as that is the law.
Instead there was concerns from the public because it was reported to be a banned breed, a justifiable cause to seize a dog under the Dangerous Dogs act. It was returned because it was not, there was at that time no individual evidence against the dog, so it was unlawful to withhold the animal from its owner.

Concerns that the dog was dangerous were later proven correct, but only by happenstance.

The press didn't keep up with this story because if you scratch the surface the police did nothing wrong and were tied by the law anyway. It is coincidental that things worked out that way.


http://www.irishnews.com/news/uknews/2016/08/17/news/dangerous-dog-returned-to-owner-kills-man-out-walking-656107/
http://metro.co.uk/2016/08/16/man-killed-in-attack-by-dog-that-was-returned-to-owner-despite-danger-fears-6071411/

As far as I'm concerned, the police fethed up big time...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:
Well, regardless of the tragedy (and it is one), it is a rare occurrence. Millions of cop to non-cop interactions every year do not end up in any type of use of force, vastly outnumbering those which do end in violence (justifiable or not).

I submit that is pretty damned indicative that there is indeed some training going on.

Yeah, but is it the right training though?

We had this major debate during the countries with an unarmed police force thread, and the consensus was that other countries tend to focus on de-escalation first, and pulling a gun is a last resort...

I totally understand that US cops, for obvious reasons, have to assume that people are open carry or concealed carry,

but I can't help but think the default mode for US police is shoot first, questions later...

Just my opinion...

And your opinion is a valid one, based on what is regurgitated by the media. However CPTJake's point is for every bad thing you read about as far as police violence, there are good things happening in a much larger quantity. So large that if you work out percentages it becomes so small, that you are more likely to die of other causes. Not defending bad cop behavior, but the fear mongering is very real. And its actually starting to tear cities apart.

 redleger wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Oh God...
That is just a new level of sadness. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the US police.

I think Police in general the world over are equally as incompetent and stupid.

Here in the UK, we had a case a few days ago of a dangerous dog that was seized by police( it's owner was an idiot) because it was running around biting people.

Police said the dog was fine, then gave it back to the owner. The dog then killed somebody...

Don't get me wrong, this incident a tragedy, and the officers in question deserve jail time, but incompetence, stupidity, and dereliction of duty is not unique to the USA.

You are overegging this.

The dog in question was seized by the police due to public fears, it was NOT running around biting people. Were it to do so a mandatory order to put down the dog would have occurred, as that is the law.
Instead there was concerns from the public because it was reported to be a banned breed, a justifiable cause to seize a dog under the Dangerous Dogs act. It was returned because it was not, there was at that time no individual evidence against the dog, so it was unlawful to withhold the animal from its owner.

Concerns that the dog was dangerous were later proven correct, but only by happenstance.

The press didn't keep up with this story because if you scratch the surface the police did nothing wrong and were tied by the law anyway. It is coincidental that things worked out that way.


http://www.irishnews.com/news/uknews/2016/08/17/news/dangerous-dog-returned-to-owner-kills-man-out-walking-656107/
http://metro.co.uk/2016/08/16/man-killed-in-attack-by-dog-that-was-returned-to-owner-despite-danger-fears-6071411/

As far as I'm concerned, the police fethed up big time...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:
Well, regardless of the tragedy (and it is one), it is a rare occurrence. Millions of cop to non-cop interactions every year do not end up in any type of use of force, vastly outnumbering those which do end in violence (justifiable or not).

I submit that is pretty damned indicative that there is indeed some training going on.

Yeah, but is it the right training though?

We had this major debate during the countries with an unarmed police force thread, and the consensus was that other countries tend to focus on de-escalation first, and pulling a gun is a last resort...

I totally understand that US cops, for obvious reasons, have to assume that people are open carry or concealed carry,

but I can't help but think the default mode for US police is shoot first, questions later...

Just my opinion...

And your opinion is a valid one, based on what is regurgitated by the media. However CPTJake's point is for every bad thing you read about as far as police violence, there are good things happening in a much larger quantity. So large that if you work out percentages it becomes so small, that you are more likely to die of other causes. Not defending bad cop behavior, but the fear mongering is very real. And its actually starting to tear cities apart.

If you're working in McDonalds, and you make a mistake, what happens? Somebody gets fries instead of a big mac, no big deal.

If the police make a mistake, people can die, so obviously, we hold them to a higher standard.

If this unfortunate victim had died because of a mistake, say, the police officer dropped his gun, and it went off, it would still be a tragedy, but nowhere near the level of what the article is reporting.

Accidents happen, that's life.

But there's a major difference between an honest, unavoidable mistake, and what happened with this incident, assuming the account is true.

That's incompetence, it's not unique to the US police, but people get killed by this level of incompetence.

Yes, it's a very very tiny percentage in the grand scheme of things, but that is of little comfort to the victim and their family..

This level of incompetence is unforgivable in my book.

 kronk wrote:

yellowfever wrote:
In my state you don't get out of the car unless told to. I know that differs between states though.

In the US, that's fairly uniform.

You stay in the car until told to get out.

But is shooting appropriate response against somebody who doesn't wait in the car? Seems kinda exaggerated response...

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 redleger wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Oh God...
That is just a new level of sadness. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the US police.

I think Police in general the world over are equally as incompetent and stupid.

Here in the UK, we had a case a few days ago of a dangerous dog that was seized by police( it's owner was an idiot) because it was running around biting people.

Police said the dog was fine, then gave it back to the owner. The dog then killed somebody...

Don't get me wrong, this incident a tragedy, and the officers in question deserve jail time, but incompetence, stupidity, and dereliction of duty is not unique to the USA.

You are overegging this.

The dog in question was seized by the police due to public fears, it was NOT running around biting people. Were it to do so a mandatory order to put down the dog would have occurred, as that is the law.
Instead there was concerns from the public because it was reported to be a banned breed, a justifiable cause to seize a dog under the Dangerous Dogs act. It was returned because it was not, there was at that time no individual evidence against the dog, so it was unlawful to withhold the animal from its owner.

Concerns that the dog was dangerous were later proven correct, but only by happenstance.

The press didn't keep up with this story because if you scratch the surface the police did nothing wrong and were tied by the law anyway. It is coincidental that things worked out that way.


http://www.irishnews.com/news/uknews/2016/08/17/news/dangerous-dog-returned-to-owner-kills-man-out-walking-656107/
http://metro.co.uk/2016/08/16/man-killed-in-attack-by-dog-that-was-returned-to-owner-despite-danger-fears-6071411/

As far as I'm concerned, the police fethed up big time...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CptJake wrote:
Well, regardless of the tragedy (and it is one), it is a rare occurrence. Millions of cop to non-cop interactions every year do not end up in any type of use of force, vastly outnumbering those which do end in violence (justifiable or not).

I submit that is pretty damned indicative that there is indeed some training going on.

Yeah, but is it the right training though?

We had this major debate during the countries with an unarmed police force thread, and the consensus was that other countries tend to focus on de-escalation first, and pulling a gun is a last resort...

I totally understand that US cops, for obvious reasons, have to assume that people are open carry or concealed carry,

but I can't help but think the default mode for US police is shoot first, questions later...

Just my opinion...

And your opinion is a valid one, based on what is regurgitated by the media. However CPTJake's point is for every bad thing you read about as far as police violence, there are good things happening in a much larger quantity. So large that if you work out percentages it becomes so small, that you are more likely to die of other causes. Not defending bad cop behavior, but the fear mongering is very real. And its actually starting to tear cities apart.

If you're working in McDonalds, and you make a mistake, what happens? Somebody gets fries instead of a big mac, no big deal.

If the police make a mistake, people can die, so obviously, we hold them to a higher standard.

If this unfortunate victim had died because of a mistake, say, the police officer dropped his gun, and it went off, it would still be a tragedy, but nowhere near the level of what the article is reporting.

Accidents happen, that's life.

But there's a major difference between an honest, unavoidable mistake, and what happened with this incident, assuming the account is true.

That's incompetence, it's not unique to the US police, but people get killed by this level of incompetence.

Yes, it's a very very tiny percentage in the grand scheme of things, but that is of little comfort to the victim and their family..

This level of incompetence is unforgivable in my book.

Im not disagreeing with you, Im simply pointing out that everyone here likes percentages and numbers until it doesn't fit the media bottom line. This LEO is most likely in the wrong(not that I trust the press to give all the facts). If he did shoot an unarmed man, I have zero sympathy. My feeling on LEOs use of force has been discussed before. However the problem is for every bad incident you see, there are few good ones being reported, simply because they happen too frequently to be news. How many interactions happen on a daily basis between American Citizen and LEOs. Now how many of those end up in the cop murdering said citizens.

Every murder may be a tragedy, but people get murdered every day. Its unfortunate, but what can you do to stop it. Its been happening since we could pick up Jaw Bones and stab our brothers with them. So yes in the grand scheme of things, its not as dire as many would have you believe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

yellowfever wrote:
In my state you don't get out of the car unless told to. I know that differs between states though.

In the US, that's fairly uniform.

You stay in the car until told to get out.

But is shooting appropriate response against somebody who doesn't wait in the car? Seems kinda exaggerated response...

Of course its not. Im not thinking anyone is stating it is. If they are they should probably GTFO.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Oh God...
That is just a new level of sadness. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the US police.

I think Police in general the world over are equally as incompetent and stupid.

Here in the UK, we had a case a few days ago of a dangerous dog that was seized by police( it's owner was an idiot) because it was running around biting people.

Police said the dog was fine, then gave it back to the owner. The dog then killed somebody...

Don't get me wrong, this incident a tragedy, and the officers in question deserve jail time, but incompetence, stupidity, and dereliction of duty is not unique to the USA.

True, I could write endlessly about the horrible incompetence and stupidity of the russian police too (And make jokes: Why do russian policemen always operate in pairs? It is simple, it is because of specialisation. One knows how to write, the other how to read), but regardless, I don't think russian police has ever shot an unarmed deaf man during a traffic stop. That is just on an entirely different level of incompetence.

I'm getting sick to the back teeth of reading about these incidents. American police are an absolute fething disgrace from top to bottom. I said it before and I'll say it again; they really do deserve everything they get.