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 gnome_idea_what wrote:
@axisofentropy RAW it disappears as soon as it deploys. It's one of the things that needs an FAQ to fix.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Fair. I will rephrase.

Note that the Every Man for Himself rule actually reads: "...when deploying your Kill Team, and throughout the course of the game, each model is treated as a separate unit..."

It does not say "when you deploy your units, separate each model into a completely new and separate unit that has no relationship at all to the unit that existed before it"

This distinction is clear, because literally the next paragraph outlines how Transports work, and stresses that a Transport may hold models up to its capacity regardless of what unit they were purchased from. However only models purchased as part of a unit may begin the game embarked on that unit's Dedicated Transport. Oh wow, would you look at that? Purchased Unit distinctions don't just magically disappear when the models hit the table. Each model is "treated as a separate unit" for most game play purposes, but rules that refer to a model belonging to a unit they were purchased as a part of still come into play.

More confirmation of this can be found in the Special Rules and Wargear on page 32 under the DS8 Tactical Support Turret: "if a model in a unit remains stationary, in the Movement phase, you can set up the tactical support turret on an area of open ground, within 2" of that model..." And later it goes on to say "it is removed as a casualty if there are no other models from its unit within 2" of it..."
OH BOY, more confirmation that purchase units don't just magically disappear. And how do I know this? Because if we take a gander at the way the rules for the DS8 were printed in Kauyon it reads "if the unit remains stationary..." So they reworded the rules for Kill Team intentionally. They even changed the part about firing Overwatch when the rest of the unit shoots, knowing it will fire by itself as a separate model.

Now I know the dissent will be that this is RAI, but I think it is spelled out plain enough in RAW to understand this concept. And yes it is CLEARLY intended because otherwise they wouldn't have worded the examples I gave the way they did. While I agree this situation isn't as clean as it should be, and that it sets us up in a situation where we have almost units within units, I disagree that an FAQ is needed at all to play Artillery. In fact the strongest argument you have if you are being truly RAW is that it cannot move, not that it will disappear when deployed, since Artillery works very differently from the above DS8 example.

 Lord GreyWolf wrote:
So what would I need to add to the 10 fire warriors to make it a viable list? [I am thinking of doing 5 fire warriors and 5 breachers for starters]

My suggestion would be get a box of Pathfinders and then do your 5-man Strike Team (with Rifles), 5-man Breacher Team, and another 5-man Pathfinder Team. That puts you at 134 points, so you can then add in some drones and upgrade weapons, and maybe a few more Pathfinders. This will give you a nice mix of weapons (5 Pulse Rifles, 5 Pulse Blasters, some Pulse Carbines on the Pathfinders, plus whatever upgrade weapons/drones you take), so you can handle any possible threats.

Alternatively, the Devilfish transport is one of the most heavily armoured vehicles allowed in Kill Team (it hits the 33 armour limit exactly) and is already armed pretty well stock. Taking the Strike & Breacher Teams plus a Devilfish lands you at 170 points, so you still have some room for upgrades.

So for Demons, I was hoping to be able to run 4 plague drones, 1 as a character with lesser reward, all with poison, but that is 203 points. That one dude running around with 4 ap2 attacks would have been sweet.

Renegades and Heretics though, they seem like they can make some powerful kill teams. My first was as follows.

Platoon-
11 lasguns, melta gun, autocannon team, militia training
10 lasguns, flamer, autocannon team, militia training.
10 lasguns, flamer, autocannon team, militia training.

40 wounds on the table at 200pt. 3 autocannons and a buttload of lasguns!

For kicks and giggles, I could do 9 sentinels with various weapons, mostly heavy flamers. There are a good few options that I could try out for an unusually small amount of points. 3 sentinels is 60pt, 3 spawn is 55pt, so I could mix and match a little, but a light armored kill team could be pretty fun. Too bad I can't bring zombies lol.

Shooty orks

5 tankbustas
10 shoota boys + 1 with big shoota
1 deffcopta

24 points left 2 boys and 2 bomb squigs fits

or
5 tankbustas + 1 bomb squig
10 shoota boys
2 deffcoptas

exliontamer wrote:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
@axisofentropy RAW it disappears as soon as it deploys. It's one of the things that needs an FAQ to fix.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Fair. I will rephrase.

Note that the Every Man for Himself rule actually reads: "...when deploying your Kill Team, and throughout the course of the game, each model is treated as a separate unit..."

It does not say "when you deploy your units, separate each model into a completely new and separate unit that has no relationship at all to the unit that existed before it"

This distinction is clear, because literally the next paragraph outlines how Transports work, and stresses that a Transport may hold models up to its capacity regardless of what unit they were purchased from. However only models purchased as part of a unit may begin the game embarked on that unit's Dedicated Transport. Oh wow, would you look at that? Purchased Unit distinctions don't just magically disappear when the models hit the table. Each model is "treated as a separate unit" for most game play purposes, but rules that refer to a model belonging to a unit they were purchased as a part of still come into play.

More confirmation of this can be found in the Special Rules and Wargear on page 32 under the DS8 Tactical Support Turret: "if a model in a unit remains stationary, in the Movement phase, you can set up the tactical support turret on an area of open ground, within 2" of that model..." And later it goes on to say "it is removed as a casualty if there are no other models from its unit within 2" of it..."
OH BOY, more confirmation that purchase units don't just magically disappear. And how do I know this? Because if we take a gander at the way the rules for the DS8 were printed in Kauyon it reads "if the unit remains stationary..." So they reworded the rules for Kill Team intentionally. They even changed the part about firing Overwatch when the rest of the unit shoots, knowing it will fire by itself as a separate model.

Now I know the dissent will be that this is RAI, but I think it is spelled out plain enough in RAW to understand this concept. And yes it is CLEARLY intended because otherwise they wouldn't have worded the examples I gave the way they did. While I agree this situation isn't as clean as it should be, and that it sets us up in a situation where we have almost units within units, I disagree that an FAQ is needed at all to play Artillery. In fact the strongest argument you have if you are being truly RAW is that it cannot move, not that it will disappear when deployed, since Artillery works very differently from the above DS8 example.

Checked the BRB, and this is what it says about artillery: artillery units consist of crew models and the guns themselves. If the crew is killed, the guns die as well. The unit needs 1 crew/gun to move. ICs that join can't fire the guns. One crew within 2" can fire a gun. When shooting at an artillery unit the gun's toughness is used. Artillery units w/ gun models can't charge. If the unit can't move all it's artillery when falling back the ones left behind are destroyed. When in assault with artillery allocate wounds only to crew.

You're right about artillery, and this is my eccentric interpretation: RAW the crew are defined as crew by being part of the artillery type and not being an artillery model. They aren't defined by being in one unit (as I assumed.) So in kill team, the guns can't move because 1 crewman/unit is needed to move them, whereas they can fire because 1 crew within 2" is required to fire it, and they're still crew if they leave the unit. Likewise the crew doesn't use the gun's T7 in kill team because it needs to be in the same unit. The crew can leave the guns on the other side of the board, and the guns don't go away until they die. The crew can also charge things, as they're separate units from the guns. Interestingly, when you assault an artillery model in kill team you can't allocate wounds to the gun, and there aren't any crew, so RAW artillery in kill team is assault-proof. Somewhere in there is what you were trying to explain to me, right?

TL;DR you're right, I made an assumption based on what I thought were the rules, I figured out how artillery probably works in kill team due to the rules switching back and forth on requirements about being in the same unit. Thank you for pointing that out!

And sorry for the long post.

No problem. Sorry if I was brusque...but there have been so many people making weird claims about the way models vs units work in Kill Team. And while I think GW could have been a bit more clear, I think that even RAW is clearer than people are making it out to be. Also it's supposed to be a fun, small pts, quick version of 40k so I am guessing they didn't dream people would be going over it with such a fine toothed comb. But such is the hobby.

Agent137 wrote:
Thinking about 2 5-man scout squads and a fast attack LS Storm. With scout and infiltrate, deployment is very flexible

+++ Kill Team 2 (197pts) +++

++ Space Marines: Codex (2015) (Kill Team Detachment) (197pts) ++

+ Troops (157pts) +

Scout Squad (74pts) [Relentless - Missile Launcher (Frag & Krak), 4x Scouts, 3x Sniper Rifle]
····Leader - Scout Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Sniper Rifle]

Scout Squad (83pts) [3x Boltgun, 4x Scouts]
····Killer Instinct - Scout Sergeant [Bolt Pistol, Power Sword]
····Reaping Volley - Heavy Bolter [Hellfire Rounds]

+ Fast Attack (40pts) +

Land Speeder Storm (40pts) [Heavy Bolter]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

I like this a lot - decent firepower, mobility and numbers, and it just feels right as a kill team! Mine is a long way form the table though, still have to assemble and paint my combat scouts and the landspeeder Storm :(

As a follow up, what chapter tactics seem good for Kill a team? Leaning toward Iron Hands for the FNP.

Hit & Run from White Scars can be pretty handy - keeps you from being bogged down in unwanted Close Combat, and allows you to pull out just to charge back in for Charge bonuses. If you are clever, you can even use it to slingshot models further across the board to get where they are needed most.

If you end up using some Bikes or Scout Bikes, so much the better.

I commonly run this killteam, and it works well:

Deathwatch
Vet - shotgun
Vet - shotgun
Vet - shotgun
Vet - bolter
Vet - bolter
Vet - combi-plasma
*Weapon Specialist: Sharpshooter
Vet - ccw x2
*Combat Specialist: Killer Instinct
Vet biker - melta bombs
*Indomitable Specialist: Feel no Pain


The Combat Specialist vet is excellent at taking out things that swing at I1 like power fists, power klaws, axes, etc. Putting a lot of wounds out there really helps them take and hopefully fail saves. I find the gamble often pays off, because those models will chew through the rest of your army if you don't take them out when you get the opportunity.

The biker at T5 with a 3+ and then FnP is pretty tough, and is equipped to make the long charges needed to sneak up on transports, etc. It does suck when he misses in though lol

The combi-plasma is just there to put hits and reliable wounds on T5 models like Necron Destroyers, Bikes, etc. and can sometimes help with vehicles.


Love the list, and hope that inspires some people!

(*also, just to add, if you DO take a frag cannon, the guerrilla specialist with infiltrate can really be awesome!)

What do people think of a Raven wing biker comp, you can get 6 bikers in 200 points with a couple of special weapons. They have double jink, hit and run, scout, and Stubborn, which seems like a pretty good collection of rules for kill team.

 Grimgold wrote:
What do people think of a Raven wing biker comp, you can get 6 bikers in 200 points with a couple of special weapons. They have double jink, hit and run, scout, and Stubborn, which seems like a pretty good collection of rules for kill team.

Yeah, seems pretty good. I think the problem I find myself running into with small, elite armies is that you just fall apart so easily if you roll 1 bad roll... every model lost is just so devastating. Not sure what "double jink" is, but only 6 models may be tough. Just imagine being up against like 40 grots or cultists... or 20 bloodletters, 20 boys, 30+ guardsmen, etc.. it just sucks that since all of your models (when you go all elite like that or Deathwatch) can only kill 1 unit per combat or per shooting... so you lose a lot of the power that things like those bikes have... you can't shoot the unit, kill 2-3, then charge in, killing another 2 and running them down.... etc.

YMMV but I keep finding myself coming to that realization in every single game :(

Sorry meant to say rerollable jink, which puts them between a 2++ and 3++ effective save against ranged so long as no one can ignore cover. So that deals with a few of the space marines bugbears such as plasma and melta. the small number of units would be a problem though, because my necron list is twice the size, 3 bikes and 10 warriors.

I won a small (8 person) Kill Team tournament last week with 3 Black Knights (FNP and Stealth) and 5 Scouts, cloaks, heavy bolter (split fire). Was not a very competitive crowd tho. I'll let you know how they do in another tournament Saturday.

A dozen Scouts with some weapons would probably be p competitive. Infiltrate helps out a lot in Kill Team.

My two killteams:

Dead and Company:
2 Death Company with JP/Bolt Pistol and Power Sword
5 Death Company with JP/Bolt Pistol and Chainsword

Operation Veil Shrike:
4 Firewarrior with Pulse Rifle
1 Firewarrior with Pulse Rifle and SMS Tactical Turret

3 Stealth Suit with Burst Cannon

1 Piranha with Fusion Blaster

The Blood Angel list just goes balls to the walls charging anything and everything they can reach before dying gloriously.

The Tau list is my tactical list, The fire warrior team sets up in cover with good firing lanes to support the stealth team. The piranha hunts vehicles and can drop off the drones for an extra 2 gun drones. While the stealth team infiltrates into the perfect spots to JSJ snipe models.

So here's what I am thinking for Genestealer Cults:


5 Purestrain Genestealers

12 Neophyte Hybrids
- 2 Grenade Launchers
- 1 Heavy Stubber
- 1 Mining Laser

5 Acolyte Hybrids
- 1 Hand Flamer


Leader - Purestrain Genestealer
(Preferred Specialist Skill if he gets "Been There, Seen It, Done It" - Furious Charge)

Specialist - Neophyte w/ Mining Laser - Master Craftsman
(Helps make up for BS 3 on his single-shot Mining Laser.)

Specialist - Neophyte w/ Heavy Stubber - Relentless
(Allows him to move around to draw a bead on the best target.)

Specialist - Acolyte w/ Hand Flamer - Murderous Blows
(Increases the chances of both Wounding and Rending.)


22 models which should be able to cope with hordes (Autoguns & Autopistols, Heavy Stubber, Hand Flamer, Grenade Launchers, Blasting Charges, high-Initiative Close Combat with lots of Attacks), vehicles (Mining Laser, Grenade Launchers, S4 Rending Close Combat) and Power Armour (lots of shots, lots of Rending Attacks, etc). No vehicles, so enemy Anti-Tank is virtually wasted. 5 models with Infiltrate, Move Through Cover and Stealth for getting full use of terrain. Am I missing any big holes or glaring issues?

Space marines painted up like renegade Blackshields

1 6-man tactical squad with a veteran sergeant and a missile launcher

1 6-man tactical squad with a flamer

Leader is my veteran sergeant

Missile launcher has relentless

Flamer has fleet

And one marine has eagle-eye for his bolter

So far they've done alright for me, but my flamer has yet to cause any damage. Pretty useless but I'm keeping it. It's a fluffy list anyway.

Tried out a couple of new ideas yesterday in a demo game for a new player, Skitarii vs IG

Skitarii

10 Vanguard x2 Arc Rifle

5 Rangers, refractor on the alpha (warlord)


IG

Vet Squad 1: Grenadiers, x2 plasma, Sniper, Autocannon, sarge bolter

Vet Squad 2: Grenadiers, x3 sniper, sarge bolter



Rangers are nice to have with the vanguard to give them some support, but a pure 15 vanguard with another arc rifle is probably the way to go honestly. Vanguard are the bees's knees in kill team. Plus having two wounds on your alphas helps way more than one would think, provided they don't take an autocannon round to the face.

As for the guard, it was a good blend of numbers, firepower, and defense in my opinion. You have a lot of lasguns to move up the board and be aggressive with which gives your snipers and autocannon breathing room. The plasma wait for a good opening and then get a good hit in or two but ultimately are your trump card for an emergency. I'm still not sold on if 4 snipers and 2 bolters is better than just having another autocannon, but I feel the snipers would help more if I was fighting something tougher like ogryn or warriors.

I have used the full Ravenwing bike squad, with six bikes and one attack bike. (The only option you can take is melta bombs on the Sgt. That leaves you riight at 200 pts.) They are pretty good, as they have the speed to get you to the objectives, and they can hold up pretty well. Twin linked is nice.

Even nastier is the Black Knight bike. You can only take five, with no upgrades, but they have two real advantages; Twin Linked Plasma with rapid fire and Skilled Rider. The Skilled rider helps on those terrain filled boards, and the rapid fire is nice, since your speed will usually let you get close enough to use it. Take split fire on one of your specialists, and you can pop a second target per turn if you are facing a larger army. This configuration will get toasted by hordes, though.

One thing I am getting ready to try is a mixed configuration. I want to take a five man tactical squad, and either five Ravenwing bikes, or three Black Knights. Tacticals aren't bad in Kill Team, and the bikes would help me get to and knock out any tougher targets.

Lately, hordes have started to dominate Kill Team up here. It kind of defeats the point of Kill Team when it takes well over two hours to finish a game... Last Weekend we all watched as a 45 man cultist team went up against a 45 man IG team. Kill team is worse than large sale 40k for taking time, as every model is a unit... I might just give in and start painting cultists, though.

Careful with the horde sentiment, when I said something about it a lot of people took serious offence to this, to the point that some witch from Canada tried to get me banned from my store here in the Netherlands.

Kill Team Hordes are slower to play, but it does provide a definitive edge, against smaller elite armies.

In friendly games I am happy to just plop a 7-8 MEQs on the board, but in a tournament I'd bring Horde.

 adamsouza wrote:
Kill Team Hordes are slower to play, but it does provide a definitive edge, against smaller elite armies.

In friendly games I am happy to just plop a 7-8 MEQs on the board, but in a tournament I'd bring Horde.

What would people call a horde? Over 20 models? 25? Where does the line fall? Interested more to see where people's perceptions are - and whether they're in the same place.

I think it sorta depends how many upgrades you have. 20 Veterans, with upgrades, I wouldn't consider a horde. A whole Infantry Platoon, sans any upgrades except more bodies, I would.

Edit: But I guess maybe 20 is my limit? That's two 10 man squads, or one 10 and two 5s.

If you want to troll, take a bare-bones infantry platoon with an attached conscript squad, that's forty-five models for 190 pts, leaving you with ten pts to spend on some upgrades or whatnot.

And if you think someone will be taking a force like this, remember every model with grenades can throw one. Twenty stormboyz rokkit packing up and lobbing twenty frag grenades into the mass can thin down numbers a LOT.

As for tourney settings, we're having a small one tomorrow, NO RESTRICTIONS, SO feth OFF witches, with the following armies slated to make an appearance:

* Necrons (may or may not include Forge World units)
* Tau Empire
* Space Wolves
* 2x Death Watch
* Inquisition
* Militarum Tempestus

Though there could always be no-shows or unexpected surprise arrivals, so who knows? I do plan on recording the army lists for posterity and while I won't do bat-reps of all battles (I am partaking myself if there are no extra players involved), I will keep track of the scores and whatnot.

For the sake of variety and keeping things flowing, there are three tables, each built around two missions, with the players rolling beforehand to see what mission they're going to play on that table. Afterwards the players will rotate, so that they'll always play on a different table, against a different opponent, with a different mission. If there is time there may be a fourth round where we go with one of the special scenarios from the back of the book, most likely the one with the Kill Team being pitted against two Troops choices in a last stand. I may ask the Tau player if I can borrow a pile of his plasma suits and his Farsight codex, so we can give the people up for it a hellish challenge.

If this, and a bigger doubles tourney at the end of this month, go well enough, we may do an official Kill Team tourney later this year or early next year using the tournament pack GW has / will put out soon, with official prize support and a bigger pool of players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

locarno24 wrote:
And if you think someone will be taking a force like this, remember every model with grenades can throw one. Twenty stormboyz rokkit packing up and lobbing twenty frag grenades into the mass can thin down numbers a LOT.

Grenade spam is certainly a viable option now, especially if the models also have access to krak grenades or an equivalent thereof.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
So for Demons, I was hoping to be able to run 4 plague drones, 1 as a character with lesser reward, all with poison, but that is 203 points. That one dude running around with 4 ap2 attacks would have been sweet

With HoW & 4 atx on the charge (5 for the character), do you really need the 3+ poinson? Surely 4+ poison is just fine. You could easily fit 4 Drones, 1 as a character w/ lesser reward for 183pts.
Can Deaths Heads by upgraded individually, or is it a all-or-none unit upgrade?

This is what I've been using for kt so far, our league has 3 lists required total, two of them from the se dex as your primary army.

Eldar:

Ranger x 10 -120

Vyper w Shuriken cannons and tw Shuriken catapults - 40

Vyper w Shuriken cannons and tw Shuriken catapults - 40

Total - 200
Preferred enemy, bs+1, and fnp split between rangers

Eldar:

Guardians x10 w/ scatterlaser platform - 105

Warp Spiders x 5 - 95

Total - 200
Scatterlaser platform has reaping volley
Guardian Manning the gun at first gets preferred enemy
Warp spider gets fnp

Demons:

Nurglings x 8 - 120

Flesh hounds x 5 - 80

Total - 200

Wound on 2+ on cc, re roll failed wounds, and fnp on a Hound each


First list works as vypers are squadrons and ten snipers is nice suppressing fire for the vypers to take big targets.

Second list has 14 s6 shots and 18 s4. Most of which is Bladestorm. Add on the spiders mobility/survivability and it's a nice all comers choice

Third list was cause I really wanted to use demons and they only seem to have melee. So I'm going to use that 42 wound blob to objective camp and flood them with melee smacks. Also ideal list for attack and defend mission xD

Ecdain wrote:

Demons:

Nurglings x 8 - 120

Flesh hounds x 5 - 80

Total - 200

/snip/ . So I'm going to use that 42 wound blob to objective camp and flood them with melee smacks. Also ideal list for attack and defend mission xD

Nurglings have 4 wounds each, and thus cannot be taken in Kill Team. Sorry

 Galef wrote:

Ecdain wrote:

Demons:

Nurglings x 8 - 120

Flesh hounds x 5 - 80

Total - 200

/snip/ . So I'm going to use that 42 wound blob to objective camp and flood them with melee smacks. Also ideal list for attack and defend mission xD

Nurglings have 4 wounds each, and thus cannot be taken in Kill Team. Sorry

Oh gak your right, good catch. I'll have to think of something else...