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I think the laundry list of upcoming stretch goals was an attempt to counter this crawl, and it doesn't seem to be working.

I backed Dungeon Saga so heavily because of the promises of Warhammer Quest-like customization tool in the Adventurer's Companion, and I've voiced my disappointment here plenty. I'm trying to keep the pressure on Mantic in the comments to get us actual rules, even first-draft, on this sort of content. I see changes in the alpha rules document that make me think the in-house team 'gets' modern dungeon crawlers better than Jake Thornton did, so I really do want this to turn out right. Not just because Star Saga sounds like it can be a great customizable Borderlands-esque dungeon crawler, but because if they get it right they can work on applying the new rules backwards to Dungeon Saga.

But right now, the KS campaign is boring. People are still very hesitant because of the Adventurer's Companion debacle, and I think it's hurting them. I don't think they had enough material prepared to counter people's doubts, and that's keeping them from fixing the problem.

I hope Stew or whoever it is writing this game in-house really is busting his ass to get some Character and Mission Creator content written and tested to a show-able state by the end of this campaign, because if not...

Frankly, I think it's because Mantic just isn't going to win any competition against plastic Custodes, Siege of the Citadel, etc..

This seems to fit in with the new Mantic KS Dynamic - the progress here is certainly within the +/- of their last few, trend-wise!

Monarch is unlocked

New Add Ons - Resin miniatures

There you go guys. The update that says 'We're barely containing Ronnie before he unleashes the Legendary Mantic Value.". Now I just need to paint the rest of the LMV that's sitting on boxes in my basement.

I'm finding it tepid myself, and I really wanted Mantic to make a game like this. I think the primary reason for this is that there's really not much new on offer in terms of miniatures. I'll have plenty of GCPS troopers in a better material when my Warpath KS shipment arrives, so I don't need them in PVC. Ditto for the Plague specimen types. It leaves me wondering if Mantic are trying to economize by hiring someone to repose the digital 3-D models that they've already funded through previous KS campaigns, rather than paying a digital sculptor to build all (rather than just some) of the Star Saga models from scratch.

Yeah GCPS vs Plague isn't very exciting both factions are getting over used now. I'll probably have most of the miniatures required painted before I even get the game.

They are definitely saving money by having the sculptor repose existing digital sculpts I know from other KS he's worked on that he just charges for the time it takes him to repose an existing sculpt (which doesn't take very long) so it's much cheaper than having him do a sculpt from scratch.

As I said in the comments I share your view on reusing existing sculpts and for the expansions reusing existing races which means more reposed existing sculpts. They need to branch out and do something different it would be a great way of getting new Nameless or Zzor or Sphyr miniatures without having to commit to DZ or WP levels of support for the range

Think it's fair to say I'm Mantic'd out. None of their new stuff is doing anything for me. Just waiting on my plastic Plague mutants from the Warpath KS (mainly cause their restic Stage 3s were horrendous to prep and paint IMO)

I may one day return to Mantic, but at the moment it's "meh".

 DaveC wrote:
Yeah GCPS vs Plague isn't very exciting both factions are getting over used now. I'll probably have most of the miniatures required painted before I even get the game.

They are definitely saving money by having the sculptor repose existing digital sculpts I know from other KS he's worked on that he just charges for the time it takes him to repose an existing sculpt (which doesn't take very long) so it's much cheaper than having him do a sculpt from scratch.

As I said in the comments I share your view on reusing existing sculpts and for the expansions reusing existing races which means more reposed existing sculpts. They need to branch out and do something different it would be a great way of getting new Nameless or Zzor or Sphyr miniatures without having to commit to DZ or WP levels of support for the range

I am in agreement with you. Mantic have a real problem with producing iconic, recognizable Mantic minis. The Sphyr and the chovar would fit that, as well as the enforcers and even the forefathers to a certain extent. But generic space soldiers fighting generic space zombies? Again? Let me just mail you my credit card! You'll know it's mine because the envelope will be made out of sarcasm.

I think I might make a thread in the Mantic section (speaking of zombies) about this, but Mantic are really struggling to release any miniatures that capture the customer's imagination, and by imagination I mean wallet. Either they need to kick it up a notch with the aliens and the high tech weirdness, or they need their sculptor to eat a copy of How to Draw Comics the Marvel Way and start pumping out some MERCS-style poses that liven up the ol' generic sculpts. Say what you want about GW, but they sure know how to sell you the same old Space Marines with a fancy new hat.

Some pictures of the Dark Ops MDF tiles for Star Saga (supplied unpainted) - https://www.facebook.com/DarkOpsWargaming/?fref=ts

The MDF pieces look nice, but this feels like wasted potential given the fact that Mantic already have a strong hard plastic sci-fi building line that they could have built upon. Some large room-sized plastic floor tiles, lined with holes for plugging walls in, would have made for amazing scenery.

It does look the MDF is made to accept walls, but

1. It's MDF.

2. I'm not investing in another sci-fi building system that isn't compatible with Mantic's hard plastic line.

 Vermonter wrote:
The MDF pieces look nice, but this feels like wasted potential given the fact that Mantic already have a strong hard plastic sci-fi building line that they could have built upon. Some large room-sized plastic floor tiles, lined with holes for plugging walls in, would have made for amazing scenery.

Yes using their plastic building parts would have made a larger play area. But I feel like they could have made something that would of sized with the board game and that could still be compatible with their current plastic terrain. They could have made a walled dungeon that could have worked for the board game and been visually immersive plus been compatible with their current terrain.

It does seem strange to go with MDF. The only reason to do that is cost, it is cheaper but there isn't a huge pull for me. I have hirst arts, mdf terrain, modified game boards already so the use of the MDF is limited. Something modular that connects and works with their current stuff is more versatile to me.

I think these are the tiles for the game in MDF format.
not that impressed with them.

Isn't it like what they've done with Dreadball and Dreadball Xtreme before? Making alternative boards with MDF pieces for the connisseur. - Then, acrylic boards for the connisseur with more money than sense....

*eyeshifts*

sigh they still own me an acrylic pit....

Battle Systems will have you guys covered of you want to replace the tiles. They have a very nice looking new sci-fi corridor set coming soon.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Frankly, I think it's because Mantic just isn't going to win any competition against plastic Custodes, Siege of the Citadel, etc..

It's all of the above for me. I'm backing Siege of the Citadel, I'll buy four Prospero Boxes. But I'm also butthurt about the Adventurer's Companion debacle, Mantic's KS incompetence in general, and now their lack/refusal to work out how to bulk ship to a local hub and then have items come from there, which would reduce shipping dramatically and also make a big difference to local duties. Mantic aren't first-timers anymore, it's time to learn how to do things like that properly. I guess they don't have time to research and learn how to do these things since they're always doing another KS by the seat of their pants on the fly. Wasn't there something said about fewer KS to be coming from Mantic at one point?


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 DaveC wrote:
Some pictures of the Dark Ops MDF tiles for Star Saga (supplied unpainted) - https://www.facebook.com/DarkOpsWargaming/?fref=ts

I still can't easily tell at a glance which areas are distinct "squares" for models and which are decorative. That's a problem.

does Star Quest use 'squares'?, maybe it uses 'rooms' instead?

From the looks of it on the unpainted one the + signs are the square boundaries

You can clearly see the crosses and dashes that outline the squares.

I am not sure if the illustrator intended on showing walls or just floor on the graphics, the design is odd and could go either way, is the intention is to show walls on the side it needs a major graphical overhaul, if it is all floor the design choice is a poor one.

 Compel wrote:
From the looks of it on the unpainted one the + signs are the square boundaries

Good spot. I hadn't seen them in the images shown until you pointed them out.

Those floor tiles look more like walls. I can't see the squares.

I printed out some tiles myself to playtest through with my lad. Here's a pic of the Mission 1 tiles all set up (the third mission after A and B).
I printed them so each room is a single piece. Makes placement of rooms when a door is opened a breeze.
Makes me wonder if I'll enjoy the smaller jigsaw tiles when the final release comes...

 DaveC wrote:
They are definitely saving money by having the sculptor repose existing digital sculpts I know from other KS he's worked on that he just charges for the time it takes him to repose an existing sculpt (which doesn't take very long) so it's much cheaper than having him do a sculpt from scratch.

Thanks for confirming that, DaveC, that's very interesting. I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, it makes perfect sense to repose existing 3-D models if you have that resource rather than pay top dollar for entirely new sculpts, and it does give players more pose variety. On the other hand, I look at this and then at Siege of the Citadel, and I see a campaign that is giving me a sizable percentage of more of the same vs. one where every single sculpted figure is new to my collection. I guess for me it just comes down to the fact that I'm already satisfied with my GCPS / Plague forces and don't want or need any more alternate poses for them.

As I said in the comments I share your view on reusing existing sculpts and for the expansions reusing existing races which means more reposed existing sculpts. They need to branch out and do something different it would be a great way of getting new Nameless or Zzor or Sphyr miniatures without having to commit to DZ or WP levels of support for the range

I saw that, and appreciate your speaking up about it. I don't think we'll be seeing any change to Mantic's intent to base all expansions on 3-D models they already have, though, as it's obviously a purely economic decision. This would have been a great way to flesh out the Nameless or ZZ'or or Sphyr etc., and personally I think they'd get more interest from Mantic KS regulars if the core conflict forces were less over-used.

I'll still be interested if the models they include with the Veer-myn and Asterian expansions are actually new varieties / unit types, rather than just reposed versions of the hard plastics we already have, but I'm not expecting that. Mantic newcomers who don't already have oodles of hard plastic troops already won't mind the model repeats at all, so this could be a good deal for them. For myself, I won't be investing if it's too much of the same old.

 Vermonter wrote:
Siege of the Citadel.

Oh wow, I didn't even know about that one; thanks for sharing. I've never played the original but it looks fun!

Seems to be the quietest Mantic KS I've ever seen.

Maybe 2 comments rolling in per half hour on the KS page.
Only about 3 people reporting Alpha testing on the Mantic forum.

I don't have any dungeon crawlers in my vast collection of toy soldiers, rulebooks and terrain so I was rather excited to see this one come out - especially as it was likely I could use my characters from Deadzone/Warpath with it (and vice versa).
However, I've played through all the alpha missions and been less than impressed with the fact that the players breeze through easily and the role of the Nexus player is rather dull.

My pledge is still in, but for how long I'm not sure. I'm hoping they alter some of the statlines and mechanics.

I also find it rather bizarre that on a d6, only a 1 is a miss, 2-3 is a minor hit, 4-5 a major hit and 6 a crit. I still feel a d8 with 1-3 as misses would be a tad better. The d8 would also give a link to Deadzone.

I have a feeling on my next test, I'll up the stats of the Nexus minions and see if my 10 year old lad can get through the missions and actually take damage and feel at risk.

I really like the clean look of those 3rd party tiles but they do also highlight one of the reasons I hate Mantics approach to such things.. it looks a complete mess when you start putting tiles next to each other to make a larger room. I'd rather loose that flexibility and have bigger, more distinct room tiles complete with borders which serve to make the boundaries of each room or corridor super clear. Plus it gives you somewhere to put the walls if you are inclined to do so.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:


I don't have any dungeon crawlers in my vast collection of toy soldiers, rulebooks and terrain so I was rather excited to see this one come out - especially as it was likely I could use my characters from Deadzone/Warpath with it (and vice versa).
However, I've played through all the alpha missions and been less than impressed with the fact that the players breeze through easily and the role of the Nexus player is rather dull.
I have a feeling on my next test, I'll up the stats of the Nexus minions and see if my 10 year old lad can get through the missions and actually take damage and feel at risk.

First, thanks for posting your self-printed tile set with the big rooms. If I were you, I'd just glue your home-printed tiles onto stiffer board and use them when the game comes, rather than the smaller more fiddly pieces that the game will come with. I still think they should have released some large, room-sized plastic floor tiles compatible with their Battle Zones line.

Second, you've summed up my position on rpg-lite dungeon crawler games exactly. I love the idea, and I'd especially love to see a good sci-fi one, but having a Nexus player is a deal-killer because:

1. As you said, it's dull as dishwater to play as an "enemy DM" fighting a team of players. The fact is, in heroic narrative games, the Nexus player is supposed to lose. If the heroes lose, 5 out of 6 players are left deflated and disappointed, and the campaign / storyline doesn't advance, so games with Nexus / Overlord / etc. players are usually designed with the intention that the evil DM player is there to fulfill the power fantasies of the other players, not to win themselves. Your job is to throw less powerful, characterless minions at the heroes and watch your forces get slaughtered by better stats and special abilities. You usually get a few special effect cards to play and you have superior numbers, but somehow neither really change the balance of power and you're always behind anyway. In addition, if you're the guy who bought the game and you want to play as a hero, you're usually out of luck. You'll get stuck being the Nexus player indefinitely, because the Nexus role is more complicated to play and you're the only person who bothered to read the entire rulebook. This is why I got rid of my edition of Descent, and why I won't buy one-vs.-many rpg lite boardgames anymore. Finally, in terms of social interaction during play, being the one guy that everyone else unites to take down is even less fun than it sounds. Because you're the overlord, the players think you have all the power, even though they're traipsing through your forces like daisies. You're also the rules master since you're the one who studied the rules, but other players often imagine a conflict of interest because you're playing against them, so they're more apt to question your "suspect" interpretation of the rules ad nauseum.

I expect that there are a few people out there who disagree and love to play as the Nexus Overlord. I also suspect that they're a small minority, and that most people looking to buy these games are imagining playing as one of the heroes.

The best fully co-op rpg-lite boardgame I've played is Zombicide: Black Plague, where everyone plays a hero, and villains are controlled by all players with cards and simple "A.I." game mechanics. Granted, Mantic says that Star Saga will have a solo and co-op mode, too. But their attempts to incorporate those modes in the past left them as sideshows to the core 1-vs.-many game. If Star Saga isn't being designed as a fully co-op game rather than 1-vs.-many, what are the chances that full-coop will get equal development and playtesting time? It's not something I'd care to wager $100 on on.

Interesting game but it's not exactly wow factor yet. Could see me dropping my pledge last minute

It depends how they do it. Imperial Assaults way means that they campaign still progresses if the rebel heroes lose, they accomplish this by basically doubling the number of story missions and having alternates for each one. I may be biased, being typically the imperial player but I'd say the "Imperials won" missions are actually WAY more interesting in the chore campaign than the "rebels win" missions.

In saying that, I'm not disagreeing entirely with what you're saying but, there's ways around it. I've only had a couple of games out dungeon saga and, personally, it was fun running around as a banshee as for IA, who doesn't want to play as Darth Vader? That was plenty characterful for me.

But yeah there is more than a kernel of truth in what you're saying but I figured it's worth giving another perspective too