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My big question is why you'd ever pass up Seismic cannons for mining lasers. The former seems flatly superior, for just 5 points more you get double the shots if within 12" (easy to do with cult ambush) and the ability to flex into heavy bolter stats by infiltrating a little farther back. A large percentage of penetrating hits are going to be sixes, making them AP1.

Any drawback to the seismic cannon seems to be offset by the fact that the squad is BS3 and that extra shot is gold.

Also, I'm usually going to want to send in a couple grenade launchers for good measure. They're cheap, and they allow you to threaten rear armor 10 much more reliably than just the 4 BS3 shots would.

Well, ~16% will be sixes and only after half the shots hit and you are assuming you can infiltrate all of them within their sweet spot range band on valid targets.

I like the seismic canon a lot but I am not so sure how effective they will end up being over the mining laser.

Range is the primary motivator. I'm not convinced you could get many units within 12" to really take advantage of the seismic cannon. Since the Neophytes aren't terribly mobile, repositioning isn't much of an option. Mining lasers also provide reliable AP2 which is crucial when up against Tau (Riptides!) and also helps with vehicle removal. The heavy bolter mode is of minimal benefit when you already have over 100 autoguns to thin the herd, in my opinion.

This is my list:

+CULT INSURRECTION:

+lord of the cult: Patriarch lvl2. (125)

+lord of the cult: Magus lvl2 and spell familiar (85)

+brood cyrcle

-Iconward (65)
-2x5 hybrids (80)
-10 hybrids, icon, boss (sword and slash), 2x chains (175)
-2 x 10 neophytes with 4 mine laser (160)
-5 methamorps with +2S claws (55)
-5 genestealers (70)

+Subterranean uprsing:
- primus (75)
-4 x 5 hybrids each unit with 1 explosive and 4 flamer pistol (320) (suicide squads)
-2 x 5 metamorps with +2S claws, boss with lash ans bone sword (150)
-10 methamorps with boss (lash and sword) icon and +2 S claws. (160)


This is near 1500 pnts. I love the spells of genestealers so i want add one of this:

+CAD : 2x10 neophite with 4 mine lasers and 2 magus lvl 2 (290)
+Broodcoven ( i remove the prime of subterranean) (190)

which prefer?


Also there are some extra points (if i remove mine lasers more points i will have) that i can use in:
- add more hybrids
-add more chains in some hybrids
-add more genestealers
- add ascendent cult icon to iconward.


What do you prefer?

Thanks to all.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Well, ~16% will be sixes and only after half the shots hit and you are assuming you can infiltrate all of them within their sweet spot range band on valid targets.

I like the seismic canon a lot but I am not so sure how effective they will end up being over the mining laser.

I said percentage of penetrating hits. In terms of the number of shots that will miss, or fail to pen...well, the laser has 1/2 the number of shots, and only 1 more strength in the effective band. Even if you go within 24", vs AV10 rear or side armor, the guns are identical in terms of Hull Point removal (0.5 on average).

My point was more, if you do score a pen, a lot of the time that pen will be on a 6. for example, if you're shooting at an AV10 target and you score a pen, by definition you must have rolled a 6 on your penetration roll. Within 12" and vs AV12, 50% of pens will be on a 6.

I suppose you could mix and match weapons a little. Like I said, I imagine most of your units would be outside of 12" once you actually set them up on the table. Perhaps rolling with one of the Throngs as a seismic unit would be sufficient. I think you'd struggle to fit more than 50 guys within 12" of ideal targets, especially considering your other ambushing units.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Well, ~16% will be sixes and only after half the shots hit and you are assuming you can infiltrate all of them within their sweet spot range band on valid targets.

I like the seismic canon a lot but I am not so sure how effective they will end up being over the mining laser.

I said percentage of penetrating hits. In terms of the number of shots that will miss, or fail to pen...well, the laser has 1/2 the number of shots, and only 1 more strength in the effective band. Even if you go within 24", vs AV10 rear or side armor, the guns are identical in terms of Hull Point removal (0.5 on average).

My point was more, if you do score a pen, a lot of the time that pen will be on a 6. for example, if you're shooting at an AV10 target and you score a pen, by definition you must have rolled a 6 on your penetration roll. Within 12" and vs AV12, 50% of pens will be on a 6.

Ah OK that makes a lot more sense but I do find ti a bit strange to look at it that way. I mean, you still need to acquire targets and hit first. The laser has the same issue with regard to BS sure, but your going to find it much easier to get them into range and they also auto glance vs AV 10. I don't want to even know the number of times I've dropped a 1 to pen with strength 8, it's why las canons are so much more effective then missile launchers. Don't get me wrong here I love the seismic canon, but at the same time I am hearing a lot of talk on why it is the auto take on neophytes and I think that is a mistake.

I am working on a list for an Escalation league that will be starting in about two weeks.

- We are starting at 600 points, then adding +350 each round until we reach 2000 points total.

- Each unit and all wargear options you take must stay with you from round to round, but units may take additional models and/or wargear options still available (i.e. a Neophyte could upgrade his Autogun to a Mining Laser, but not his Heavy Stubber to a Mining Laser.)

- Once during the league you can shuffle around the Detachments/Formations you are using.

I am looking for feedback on my choices, though due to the models I have and limited funds for additions, I probably don't have a lot of wiggle room in models, but maybe a bit more in equipment choices. Particularly interested in any holes in my list - i.e. things I will really struggle against. I know I won't have a lot of anti-air, and that 4 Mastery Levels total might be a little light, but I don't really have much of an option to improve those that I can think of at the moment.


Round 1 - 600 Points

Lords of the Cult

Magus (95 pts)
- The Crouchling
- 2 Familiars
- Mastery 2


Neophyte Cavalcade

10 Neophytes (#1) (125 pts)
- 2 Grenade Launchers
- Chimera

10 Neophytes (#2) (130 pts)
- 2 Flamers
- 1 Heavy Stubber
- Chimera

Leman Russ (160 pts)
- Exterminator Autocannon
- Lascannon
- 2 Multi-Meltas

Armoured Sentinel (55 pts)
- Autocannon
- Hunter-Killer Missile

Scout Sentinel (35 pts)
- Heavy Flamer


Round 2 - +350 Points

Subterannean Uprising

Primus (75 pts)

5 Acolytes (#1) (65 pts)
- 1 Heavy Rock Saw

5 Acolytes (#2) (65 pts)
- 1 Heavy Rock Cutter

5 Metamorphs (75 pts)
- 1 Metamorp Leader
- 5 Metamorph Claws
- Cult Icon


Shadow Skulkers

5 Purestrains (70 pts)


Round 3 - +350 Points

The Doting Throng

10 Neophytes (#3) (110 pts)
- 2 Grenade Launchers
- Goliath Truck

10 Neophytes (#4) (150 pts)
- 2 Grenade Launchers
- 2 Seismic Cannons
- Goliath Truck

5 Acolytes (#3) (90 pts)
- Goliath Truck


Round 4 - +350 Points

- At this point level, the "Shadow Skulkers" are moved to "The First Curse" and reinforced to include the below.


The First Curse

Patrich (125 pts)
- 2 Familiars
- Mastery 2

20 Purestrains (280 pts / +210 pts)


- At this point level, the Primus above replaces his Bonesword with the Sword of the Void's Eye. (+15 pts)

- At this point level, the Magus is moved from the "Lords of the Cult" to "The Doting Throng".


Round 5 - +350 Points

Lords of the Cult

Iconward (80 pts)
- Scourge of Distant Stars


- At this point level, the "Subterannean Uprising" is reinforced to include:

6 Aberrants (180 pts)


- At this point level, Neophytes #1 gain 2 Mining Lasers (+30 pts)

- At this point level, Neophytes #2 gain 1 Heavy Stubber (+5 pts)

- At this point level, Neophytes #3 gain 2 Mining Lasers (+30 pts)

- At this point level, Acolytes #3 gain 1 Heavy Rock Saw (+25 pts)


I am hoping to use MSU, Cult Ambush and the Neophyte Cavalcade to flood the enemy's half of the board with as many threats as I can from all angles. My Exterminator will provide limited anti-air, and fairly decent anti-tank along with the Armoured Sentinel and lots of Rending. I also hope to have a few models leftover for possible use of the Telepathic Summons if it comes up, as I plan for the Magus to roll Broodmind, while the Patriarch will go either Telepathy or Biomancy depending on what I think will be most useful against the opponents I am matched with.

Great Tactics write-up, thanks, the_scotsman!

Quite like the sound of the Cults, I'm not entirely sold on the models but the ambushing style of play reminds me of 5th edition Genestealers which I loved to use. Speaking of, I have a good few genestealer models that go unused so it'd be nice to use them even as just an Allied Detachment.

Surprised they're only allies of convenience with Tyranids though, but I guess Battle Brothers was a bit out of the question what with being able to stick nids in vehicles...

Blightstar wrote:

Invul wrote:
So... if you got first turn, took a bunch of Subterranean Uprisings so you could manage where you ambushed... you could really clog up your opponent's deployment zone.

Edit: nvm, you have to infiltrate to roll on the table, so you can't. Derp.

You totally can do this. Subterranean Uprising's one of the Formation bonus is Infiltrate.

I meant prior to your opponent actually deploying, to somehow direct how they can feasibly position. But infiltrate happens after everyone's deployed, so that's some trollishness destroyed.

What do we all think about a first curse plus a cad adding 2 more patriarch for a nice genestealer deathstar. Add this to a Tyranid cad with 2 Flyrants and some zoanthropes for more warp charge and it gets pretty deadly though not super fluffy having 3 patriarch in one squad. Having hive mind, telepathy, and biomancy in the same unit could be nasty.

Timeshadow wrote:
What do we all think about a first curse plus a cad adding 2 more patriarch for a nice genestealer deathstar. Add this to a Tyranid cad with 2 Flyrants and some zoanthropes for more warp charge and it gets pretty deadly though not super fluffy having 3 patriarch in one squad. Having hive mind, telepathy, and biomancy in the same unit could be nasty.

That sounds pretty nasty actually..

Will have to give that a go, since my Tyranid list tended to focus on Manafactorium Genestealers until they got FAQ'd saying you couldn't add Broodlords

Timeshadow wrote:
What do we all think about a first curse plus a cad adding 2 more patriarch for a nice genestealer deathstar. Add this to a Tyranid cad with 2 Flyrants and some zoanthropes for more warp charge and it gets pretty deadly though not super fluffy having 3 patriarch in one squad. Having hive mind, telepathy, and biomancy in the same unit could be nasty.

Make the other two broodlords, lesser liutenant pack alphas under the prime one's command.

Or maybe they come from a planetary system where the non-warlord ones spread out and became heads of other cults on neighbouring moons and planets, feeding tribute back to the prime cult.

Disapprove of Flyrant allies on fluff grounds no matter the justification though, bad enough when multiples are taken in a full Nid detachment where they already stick out as unfluffy traveling in packs.

you could say 3 different Genestealers made Patriarch in 3 different systems and then linked together later on with their conquest of expansion =D

unlikely but anything is possible in the 41st Millennium

Like I said unfluffy but with the right rolls could be deadly.

Imagine an invisible unit with 20 cult genestealers, 3 patriarch, with a 5++ 4+ fnp, eternal warrior and loads of other usefull powers such as smite, and the fun move run and charge with +1strength hive mind power.

Timeshadow wrote:
What do we all think about a first curse plus a cad adding 2 more patriarch for a nice genestealer deathstar. Add this to a Tyranid cad with 2 Flyrants and some zoanthropes for more warp charge and it gets pretty deadly though not super fluffy having 3 patriarch in one squad. Having hive mind, telepathy, and biomancy in the same unit could be nasty.

Boom or bust. With the right psychic powers and a good roll on the cult ambush table, it'll look unstoppable. Miss out on one of those against a good list or both against a bad list and you will struggle. That's why in my GSC list I have a ton of units so that SOMEONE will make it in turn one. Hopefully a fair few someone's. The primuses and subterranean formation go a long way in that regard. But you need to either tie things up or kill things dead turn 1 because after that, you don't have shrouded anymore. Outside of the GSC formation, it's even more imperative that you get in soon because you don't have shrouded turn 1 and stealth doesn't stack with night fight. I ran it once with the Deathleaper Assassin brood and it did alright, but that was against a Tyranid army (no ignores cover shooting and generally short range). It'd be a fun list to run for sure but not sure how competitive it could be

Looking through and playing with ideas...

I've noticed our Relics are...for the most part a crapshoot. They seem 'neat' but the ones that are most useful replace a range/melee weapon (so Pistols across the board suffering) but don't count as such themselves.

The Scourge in particular...and that makes me sad. I'd rather not sacrifice attacks, especially as our characters can literally live in large, replenishing blobs safely and get their attacks off.

The Crouchling is well worth the tradeoff in my opinion as sacrificing the pistol for 2 S4 AP- Attacks and an extra Psychic power doesn't hurt at all.

Obviously the Sword of the Void's Eye is a direct replacement for the Primus's Bonesword, superior in every way, so that one is good too.

I like the idea of the Scourge on an Iconward as, when combined with the Unquestioning Loyalty rule it gives an opponent pause when considering challenging the Iconward's unit. An unsaveable Wound on a tooled up combat character is a somewhat unwelcome prospect.

The icon seems well worth the trade as well, especially if you put the Iconward in a large unit. Losing a pistol shot and an Attack to gain up to 20 Attacks for an Acolyte or Neophyte unit, or 10 for a Metamorph unit with claws or whips is quite useful.

The dagger and the staff are fairly unattractive in my opinion, but at least the dagger would not sacrifice any Attacks. I guess the Rending and Ignores Civer on the staff might be nice, but the otherwise low Strength and loss if an Attack dull it's shine. The real nail in the Staff's coffin though is the fact that it competes with The Crouchling since both are Magus only, and he is a far better option for the same price in my opinion. I would only even consider taking the Staff if I was taking a second Magus.

The Staff looks like it was meant for hunting monsters, but the problem is most of your army rends anyway, and as mentioned, the Crouchling has a greater priority.

I noticed something amusing recently and I think it's kind of cute actually: There's nothing that prevents Hybrid Metamorph weapons from stacking with a Bonesword, plus you're only "taking" the Bonesword and not replacing your rending weapons.

Meaning you have the option to turn your Metamorph Leader into an I6 Assassin. You take him in the Brood Cycle and he's within a 24" Furious Charge Bubble with potentially enhanced Weapon Skill. He would strike *before* a Wraithknight, and every 6 to-wound would deny FNP and add a further D3 wounds right then and there. Or you can just use him to mulch through Power Armor before they get a chance to swing. Plus there's the potential to return him through Return to the Shadows.

What do people think about a mix of Whips and Claws in a Metamorph unit? The Whips would be able to bring some things down before they strike (faster stuff is usually more fragile), while the Claws would be able to add more punch against survivors and slower stuff.

I am thinking something like 2 Whips and 3 Claws, or 3 Whips and 2 Claws per 5.

 Ambience 327 wrote:
What do people think about a mix of Whips and Claws in a Metamorph unit? The Whips would be able to bring some things down before they strike (faster stuff is usually more fragile), while the Claws would be able to add more punch against survivors and slower stuff.

I am thinking something like 2 Whips and 3 Claws, or 3 Whips and 2 Claws per 5.

I definitely plan on doing a mix of half whips, half claws in the bigger units. I'm debating on the role of the smaller units though. Strong possibility I go that route and go 2 whips and 3 claws to help keep some of the return attacks down.

Speaking of claws, how do people plan on modeling them since there are only one per box? Prime opportunity for an aftermarket sculptor to make a few cool ones for sale. My greenstuff sculpting skills are less than optimal.

In a unit of 5, two whips seem like a very incremental improvement against I4+ units that probably won't have much trouble removing a bunch of T3, 5+ models.

I only have one game under my belt, but to me the min-sized units are so small and fragile that you just want to keep them simple and focused. But YMMV.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:
Speaking of claws, how do people plan on modeling them since there are only one per box? Prime opportunity for an aftermarket sculptor to make a few cool ones for sale. My greenstuff sculpting skills are less than optimal.

I used daemonette claws in my pre-codex army, so I'll be continuing that theme and use them for metamorph claws in my codex army.

Better go for the steed claws, the demonettes are small beside the champion claws, that said one set is 4 champion limbs which is most of the unit.

The champion claws are what I've been using.



I'm actually going to rip them off those models and a few others, give them to the Metamorphs (I also have more claws in my bits box), and then outfit these with new arms.

Great job mate! Those look outstanding, tragic to hear you rip them apart! Just proxy or ebay some bits hehe!

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:

Speaking of claws, how do people plan on modeling them since there are only one per box? Prime opportunity for an aftermarket sculptor to make a few cool ones for sale. My greenstuff sculpting skills are less than optimal.

I bought 4 boxes and had the DWO Hybrids so...

(Also the store I bought from - owner dug through his bits box and found an old metal RT era hybrid for me Guess who became my Metamorph Icon Bearer)

Unit of 7 Metamorphs - 4 claws, 1 icon, barebones Leader.
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 10 Acolytes with Leader and Bonesword.

Tried to not splash too many points to be honest. Also plan on making the most of the meta-detachment's ability to restore 1d6 models when it goes back into hiding - nothing there restricting us from restoring Icon Bearers, Leaders or weapon upgrades from what I've read. Also probably going to just make sure all the Acolytes are in the Uprising and all the non-Cavalcade Neophytes are in the Throng.

Hilariously the Patriarch also seems to be able to join non Purestrain squads - which means you could stick him in a nice fat Acolyte blob with the Primus if you really wanted.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:

Speaking of claws, how do people plan on modeling them since there are only one per box? Prime opportunity for an aftermarket sculptor to make a few cool ones for sale. My greenstuff sculpting skills are less than optimal.

I bought 4 boxes and had the DWO Hybrids so...

(Also the store I bought from - owner dug through his bits box and found an old metal RT era hybrid for me Guess who became my Metamorph Icon Bearer)

Unit of 7 Metamorphs - 4 claws, 1 icon, barebones Leader.
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 10 Acolytes with Leader and Bonesword.

Tried to not splash too many points to be honest. Also plan on making the most of the meta-detachment's ability to restore 1d6 models when it goes back into hiding - nothing there restricting us from restoring Icon Bearers, Leaders or weapon upgrades from what I've read. Also probably going to just make sure all the Acolytes are in the Uprising and all the non-Cavalcade Neophytes are in the Throng.

Hilariously the Patriarch also seems to be able to join non Purestrain squads - which means you could stick him in a nice fat Acolyte blob with the Primus if you really wanted.

Special weapons yes, but remember that as soon as an IC is separated from his init for any reason he becomes his own unit.

He counts as a separate kill point, he doesn't take a morale check if his unit is killed out from under him, etc.

I really do not think you can bring dead ICs back through cult reinforcements.

the_scotsman wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Cptn_Snuggles wrote:

Speaking of claws, how do people plan on modeling them since there are only one per box? Prime opportunity for an aftermarket sculptor to make a few cool ones for sale. My greenstuff sculpting skills are less than optimal.

I bought 4 boxes and had the DWO Hybrids so...

(Also the store I bought from - owner dug through his bits box and found an old metal RT era hybrid for me Guess who became my Metamorph Icon Bearer)

Unit of 7 Metamorphs - 4 claws, 1 icon, barebones Leader.
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 8 Acolytes with 2 Rocksaws, Icon, Leader and Bonesword
Unit of 10 Acolytes with Leader and Bonesword.

Tried to not splash too many points to be honest. Also plan on making the most of the meta-detachment's ability to restore 1d6 models when it goes back into hiding - nothing there restricting us from restoring Icon Bearers, Leaders or weapon upgrades from what I've read. Also probably going to just make sure all the Acolytes are in the Uprising and all the non-Cavalcade Neophytes are in the Throng.

Hilariously the Patriarch also seems to be able to join non Purestrain squads - which means you could stick him in a nice fat Acolyte blob with the Primus if you really wanted.

Special weapons yes, but remember that as soon as an IC is separated from his init for any reason he becomes his own unit.

He counts as a separate kill point, he doesn't take a morale check if his unit is killed out from under him, etc.

I really do not think you can bring dead ICs back through cult reinforcements.

Wasn't talking about ICs. Was talking about squad leaders. Think you got a bit confused there.

Well, I had a game monday with the GSC vs a pretty standard eldar list. @1500 points:

eldar - 2 warlocks and farseer in a council
4 wave serpents
3 with 5 dire avengers in a shrine
1 with 5 wraithguard (d-scythes)
crimson hunter
double D-cannon wraithknight
Fire prism
5x warp spiders
5 pathfinders/rangers (the sniper dudes but without illic)

GSC - First Curse
Brood cycle - 21 total acolytes, 31 total neophytes, 10 metamorphs, iconward with relic icon, 8x purestrains all with various upgrades
Leman Russ Exterminator - multi meltax2, lascannon

So to start, I rolled a 1 for my cult ambush with the first curse. I had first turn, so the rest of my ambushes i set up fairly aggressively, and had a unit of acolytes with the icon bearer roll a 6 so they set up to charge 2 or 3 of his wave serpents. Then he seized the initiative. Thankfully he wasn't expecting my return to the shadows rule, so while he took a huge chunk out of a lot of my nearby units, he didn't manage first blood.

Through the game, i only rolled one other -6- for cult ambush and it was on the last turn. The 10 metamorphs i brought in got a multi-charge and scored me 4 VP's, plus a 5th for linebreaker. If not for that he'd have beaten me soundly at 9-4 VP's. As it turned out we played to a draw at 9-9. Note - we were doing a purge the alien mission, which i think is GSC's weakest strategy. The cult is far better taking objectives, for the most part, with its ability to pop up at various places on the battlefield.

My takeaways:

MSU is probably better than horde mode, with exception to when summoning.
Telepathic summons is awesome.
The cult needs more warp dice. Having 2 psykers max in a single Cult Insurrection is very limiting to what can be cast, especially vs Daemons, GK, and Eldar.

To the third point, I am having a rematch vs him today. I cut some upgrades and squad sizes, and added a Broodcoven formation to my army list outside of my main Cult Insurrection. The idea here is to have the broodcoven join the metamorphs so i have 2 hard-hitting melee units.

The patriarch and magus in the CID will roll on the broodmind powers. The patriarch in the broodcoven will roll biomancy and the magus will roll telepathy. This way if i get telepathic summons it will be on a psyker in my cult insurrection, therefore the units will be eligible to use the "without numbers" command benefit.

I'll chime back in later after this rematch and say how it went.

Surprised you haven't taken the subterranean uprising since it greatly increases the odds of that 6 on the CA table.