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Sad Panda wrote:

 Moopy wrote:
I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.

It's not. The HH Marines in the game will be generic (except for the two characters).

But they come from the same CAD portfolio. Take, say, the computer models of generic 30K Tartaros Pattern Terminators, add 40K bling, change poses, switch a few weapons -> 40K Rubric Terminators. Saves time and effort and costs.

Same for the Tzeentch models. It was a massive design portfolio that included everything from Tzaangors to LoC and Magnus. They may not be the same sprue, but include lots of computer "bitz" and design elements from a large, newly created Tzeentch-design-elements-library.

(Similar approach for Khorne, Stormcast, etc..).

Real info. Thanks, Sad Panda

Sad Panda wrote:

 Moopy wrote:
I sincerely hope that the 1k Sons sprue ISN'T from the new end of the year HH boxed set with the custodians.

It's not. The HH Marines in the game will be generic (except for the two characters).

But they come from the same CAD portfolio. Take, say, the computer models of generic 30K Tartaros Pattern Terminators, add 40K bling, change poses, switch a few weapons -> 40K Rubric Terminators. Saves time and effort and costs.

Same for the Tzeentch models. It was a massive design portfolio that included everything from Tzaangors to LoC and Magnus. They may not be the same sprue, but include lots of computer "bitz" and design elements from a large, newly created Tzeentch-design-elements-library.

(Similar approach for Khorne, Stormcast, etc..).

Any CAD relationship between the rumoured Sisters of Silence models and the rumoured Sisters of Battle models?

Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat

Sauron and the other major players all have models in the LOTR game.

Gandalf and the other wizards are minor gods, as are quite a few other characters - it depends on how the game is focussed.

The complaining is hilarious. I have been playing 40k since 93 ever since 3rd hit and rebooted the rules there was a window of ~5 years where people would have, to quote MT11, creamed there jeans for the releases we have been getting in the past two years. Thats including demon primarchs and loyal primarchs. It's kind of sadly ironic that it's mostly that same crowd complaining now that it finally has come. It comes off as bitter and too little too late mentality.

The fluff is so hammy and old fellas, it won't kill the old fluff to add new fluff. It will just mean there is more. I get that having 10-15 years of your own imagined stories and ponderings makes you a much harder critic about anything they will do, but at least be fething self aware of that fact.

Every new player I know is excited, that should tell you all you need to know.

I want to see the Lion and the Wolf reunite against The Red Giant personally, that would make for an amazing campaign.

 Yodhrin wrote:


Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.

They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.

This is insane. What is being destroyed here? Fanfiction? If so, only the fanfiction that takes place on established worlds that are already central to the storyline? What do you think is going to be "casually overwritten"? Or are you just complaining for the sake of complaining?

Do you complain when they release campaign supplements? Because Damnos, Valedor, Shield of Baal, Kauyon, Mont'ka, and Fenris all changed the story of the setting in their respective areas. To say nothing of the fact that each and every Forge World Imperial Armor does the same thing. Are they bad for 40k as well?

Again - Nothing about this will change the setting. Unless your special snowflake character has a story where he went and killed Magnus. Which would be stupid.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat, a presence that we are just told about by Gollum, or by the action of his minions, or statements of Gandalf, and so on. We never have a chapter with him in his tower giving orders, shouting, casting evil spells, plotting evil plans, doing evil things, cooking evil lasagnas. Is looming in the background, never described but still pervasive.

That makes him effective. Is the same thing that makes effective the primarchs in 40k. We do not need to see Guilliman we see his legacy. In Ultramar, in the Smurfs, and whatnot.

An actual, physical Guilliman is less powerful as a character. And refocuses the "camera" in 40k on the wrong things, and on a scale I wish we would run away from.

@Yodhrin you are the best.

Ok, it changes the specific case in which the major chapters react to the Primarch coming back, but if you're playing a major Space Marine chapter, you're already at the whims of any changes they make. It changes very little about your personal successor chapter unless you make it so. It doesn't destroy the setting, and actually changes nothing for armies that aren't Space Marines. In fact, we don't even know how it will affect those chapters. The Primarchs can show up and leave the existing Chapter Masters in place, going to lead the charge elsewhere. Guillman waking up and taking a handful of Marines to some warzone would change very little about Calgar and Macragge.

The Primarchs were never all powerful beings that have the impact of Sauron (that would be the Chaos Gods and the Emperor). They're Aragorn. We've just been seeing the story from the standpoint of a Gondor guard up until this point, hearing about some ranger who would be king. His showing up changed nothing about their day-to-day lives and how they fought on the battlefield except who was leading them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.

They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.

This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.

If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?

Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?

I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".

Furthermore, yes, seeing a whole galaxy of a setting just sketched because we have to move forward the plot of the usual suspects into more grimderp is quite irritating.
No wait is not irritating is infuriating.

Give a real example of what is now "gone".

As usual and I understand it to an extent but still, a lot of people are getting annoyed at what they think may happen rather than what we know will happen.

Posters getting annoyed as fluff they've created may get invalidated...without seeing what GW are going to do or put out. I'm no major GW fanboy so I'm not blindly defending them but I'm also willing to approach this with an open mind. For all we know they're going to set all the Primarch stuff inside the Eye of Terror or something. I doubt they'd do that but it's possible.

Let's just see what happens - evolution rather than revolution isn't always a bad thing. They can add more sand into the sandbox without obscuring the castles people have spent time building

 Red Corsair wrote:
The complaining is hilarious. I have been playing 40k since 93 ever since 3rd hit and rebooted the rules there was a window of ~5 years where people would have, to quote MT11, creamed there jeans for the releases we have been getting in the past two years. Thats including demon primarchs and loyal primarchs. It's kind of sadly ironic that it's mostly that same crowd complaining now that it finally has come. It comes off as bitter and too little too late mentality.

The fluff is so hammy and old fellas, it won't kill the old fluff to add new fluff. It will just mean there is more. I get that having 10-15 years of your own imagined stories and ponderings makes you a much harder critic about anything they will do, but at least be fething self aware of that fact.

Every new player I know is excited, that should tell you all you need to know.

I want to see the Lion and the Wolf reunite against The Red Giant personally, that would make for an amazing campaign.

Wait... have I wondered back to the early AoS discussion days? Because this sure sounds like it.

ITT: I don't want to see the Lion and the Wolf reunite against The Red Giant personally, because that would not make for an amazing campaign.

Squats. Moving on...

 Mr Morden wrote:
Sauron and the other major players all have models in the LOTR game.

Gandalf and the other wizards are minor gods, as are quite a few other characters - it depends on how the game is focussed.

Talking about the book. The fact that GW has a game is coincidental - and even in this case, you explained: the power level and scope is different. Not by chance, a match Gandalf + Aragorn vs Sauron looks odd for a lore-monkey.

This is valid for the movie as well. Jackson wanted a confrontation Aragorn vs Sauron at the Morannon, but luckily people talked him out of that mess and we had a CGI Troll of Gorgoroth beating the crap out of the heir of Isildur instead.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Spoiler:

Requizen wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.

They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.

This is insane. What is being destroyed here? Fanfiction? If so, only the fanfiction that takes place on established worlds that are already central to the storyline? What do you think is going to be "casually overwritten"? Or are you just complaining for the sake of complaining?

Do you complain when they release campaign supplements? Because Damnos, Valedor, Shield of Baal, Kauyon, Mont'ka, and Fenris all changed the story of the setting in their respective areas. To say nothing of the fact that each and every Forge World Imperial Armor does the same thing. Are they bad for 40k as well?

Again - Nothing about this will change the setting. Unless your special snowflake character has a story where he went and killed Magnus. Which would be stupid.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat, a presence that we are just told about by Gollum, or by the action of his minions, or statements of Gandalf, and so on. We never have a chapter with him in his tower giving orders, shouting, casting evil spells, plotting evil plans, doing evil things, cooking evil lasagnas. Is looming in the background, never described but still pervasive.

That makes him effective. Is the same thing that makes effective the primarchs in 40k. We do not need to see Guilliman we see his legacy. In Ultramar, in the Smurfs, and whatnot.

An actual, physical Guilliman is less powerful as a character. And refocuses the "camera" in 40k on the wrong things, and on a scale I wish we would run away from.

@Yodhrin you are the best.

Ok, it changes the specific case in which the major chapters react to the Primarch coming back, but if you're playing a major Space Marine chapter, you're already at the whims of any changes they make. It changes very little about your personal successor chapter unless you make it so. It doesn't destroy the setting, and actually changes nothing for armies that aren't Space Marines. In fact, we don't even know how it will affect those chapters. The Primarchs can show up and leave the existing Chapter Masters in place, going to lead the charge elsewhere. Guillman waking up and taking a handful of Marines to some warzone would change very little about Calgar and Macragge.

The Primarchs were never all powerful beings that have the impact of Sauron (that would be the Chaos Gods and the Emperor). They're Aragorn. We've just been seeing the story from the standpoint of a Gondor guard up until this point, hearing about some ranger who would be king. His showing up changed nothing about their day-to-day lives and how they fought on the battlefield except who was leading them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.

They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.

This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.

If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?

Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?

I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".

Furthermore, yes, seeing a whole galaxy of a setting just sketched because we have to move forward the plot of the usual suspects into more grimderp is quite irritating.
No wait is not irritating is infuriating.

Give a real example of what is now "gone".

Squats. Moving on...

First - Squats are still in the lore and nothing is preventing you from fielding them as Guard or tiny Space Marines (I've seen a full army of them as just that). Additionally, GW of a decade ago is not the GW right now. The GW right now is making all sorts of good decisions and introducing things instead of removing them.

Second - I was asking what of someone's "personal story" is now gone. Give me one specific example about how the inclusion of Primarchs will suddenly invalidate your personal fluff/fanfiction.

Requizen wrote:


Ok, it changes the specific case in which the major chapters react to the Primarch coming back, but if you're playing a major Space Marine chapter, you're already at the whims of any changes they make. It changes very little about your personal successor chapter unless you make it so. It doesn't destroy the setting, and actually changes nothing for armies that aren't Space Marines. In fact, we don't even know how it will affect those chapters. The Primarchs can show up and leave the existing Chapter Masters in place, going to lead the charge elsewhere. Guillman waking up and taking a handful of Marines to some warzone would change very little about Calgar and Macragge.

The Primarchs were never all powerful beings that have the impact of Sauron (that would be the Chaos Gods and the Emperor). They're Aragorn. We've just been seeing the story from the standpoint of a Gondor guard up until this point, hearing about some ranger who would be king. His showing up changed nothing about their day-to-day lives and how they fought on the battlefield except who was leading them.

The fact the Aragorn shows up is one of the elements that lead to the destruction of the ring and the fourth age. This is literally an "own goal".
In 4th age, middle earth was "rebooted". Sounds familiar?

Give a real example of what is now "gone".

Lost and the damned in 3rd, eye of terror. How long it took before FW "fixed" that (and is still actually another army).

I remember magnus having skin described as copperish with his red plume of hair.

I think that kind of copper, as it has red tones in it. Would work a lot better with the red hair and allow you to tone the tzeentchian blues in a little bit easier.

Thankfully it's a bare plastic model so we can all paint it how we imagine him.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.

They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.

This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.

If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?

Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?

Because I don't care about telling that story, I was already telling the story I wanted to tell.

If I want to watch Star Trek, I watch Star Trek. If I want to watch Star Wars, I watch Star Wars. If I want to watch The Expanse, I watch The Expanse. I like them each because of what they are, and if I find myself tiring of one and wanting something different I don't start hoping they'll fundamentally change the one I happen to be watching at the time, I move on and watch something else.

If I ever feel myself getting tired with the status quo in 40K, I went and played WHFB, or BFG, or Necromunda, or Mordheim, or Starship Troopers, or I took a break from tabletop for a while and played some videogames. I honestly don't think it occurred to me even once to hope that GW radically changed the setting at the expense of everyone who still enjoyed it as-was to assuage my own transient boredom.

He's pretty fething red here, but Artistic Licence and all, right?

Also, what glorious fething hair! Is it natural? Only is stylist knows for sure. And he's not talking...cause he's a fething walking tin can filled with dust.




Edit: Also, they built that "perch" following the completion of the Ullanor Crusade, when the Emperor gathered a host of his legions, gave a ra-ra speech, and told them he's fething off to Terra for a bit.

In the HH novels, it states that they Mechanicum leveled an entire continent for their troops to march down to the presentation area or whatever.

If all that gak was brand new, why does the above picture show the "palace" or whatever was all cracked and worn and gak? They just fething made it. Why is it so weathered?

Odd.

Also, Angron is gripping the stone so hard he's breaking it. Never noticed that before.

Requizen wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Spoiler:

Requizen wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.

They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.

This is insane. What is being destroyed here? Fanfiction? If so, only the fanfiction that takes place on established worlds that are already central to the storyline? What do you think is going to be "casually overwritten"? Or are you just complaining for the sake of complaining?

Do you complain when they release campaign supplements? Because Damnos, Valedor, Shield of Baal, Kauyon, Mont'ka, and Fenris all changed the story of the setting in their respective areas. To say nothing of the fact that each and every Forge World Imperial Armor does the same thing. Are they bad for 40k as well?

Again - Nothing about this will change the setting. Unless your special snowflake character has a story where he went and killed Magnus. Which would be stupid.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Is a matter of focus. Think about Lord of the Rings: Sauron is a shadow threat, a presence that we are just told about by Gollum, or by the action of his minions, or statements of Gandalf, and so on. We never have a chapter with him in his tower giving orders, shouting, casting evil spells, plotting evil plans, doing evil things, cooking evil lasagnas. Is looming in the background, never described but still pervasive.

That makes him effective. Is the same thing that makes effective the primarchs in 40k. We do not need to see Guilliman we see his legacy. In Ultramar, in the Smurfs, and whatnot.

An actual, physical Guilliman is less powerful as a character. And refocuses the "camera" in 40k on the wrong things, and on a scale I wish we would run away from.

@Yodhrin you are the best.

Ok, it changes the specific case in which the major chapters react to the Primarch coming back, but if you're playing a major Space Marine chapter, you're already at the whims of any changes they make. It changes very little about your personal successor chapter unless you make it so. It doesn't destroy the setting, and actually changes nothing for armies that aren't Space Marines. In fact, we don't even know how it will affect those chapters. The Primarchs can show up and leave the existing Chapter Masters in place, going to lead the charge elsewhere. Guillman waking up and taking a handful of Marines to some warzone would change very little about Calgar and Macragge.

The Primarchs were never all powerful beings that have the impact of Sauron (that would be the Chaos Gods and the Emperor). They're Aragorn. We've just been seeing the story from the standpoint of a Gondor guard up until this point, hearing about some ranger who would be king. His showing up changed nothing about their day-to-day lives and how they fought on the battlefield except who was leading them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:


Which is where you're supposed to come in. An ongoing story takes away the agency of the players, it makes our stories subject to the temporary commercial imperatives of a company in thrall to shareholders - the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

If I want to be told a story, I read a book, I watch a TV show, I play a videogame - I consume media, which provides a good balance of cost and effort expended to entertainment recieved. I don't spend potentially thousands of pounds and hundreds of hours of my life carefully building and painting models then hundreds more using those models to craft stories with my mates, then vaguely hope that some or all of that effort isn't made hollow and unsatisfying because GW needed to shift some extra boxes of Space Marines before the end of the financial year and decided to casually blow up a subsector or two I was using as quick and easy emphasis in the marketing.

They have a whole galaxy and ten thousand years to provide "story content" for those who can't be bothered to delve into the background for themselves, they don't need to fanny about with the status quo of the modern setting.

This feels pretty absurd to me. 40K is not dungeons and dragons.

If you feel that you somehow retroactively no longer enjoyed the things you did, because something changed...I just have to scratch my head on that one. You can't make a story around the survivors that escaped?

Your stories are standing on pre-crafted stories. What is another layer, really?

I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".

Furthermore, yes, seeing a whole galaxy of a setting just sketched because we have to move forward the plot of the usual suspects into more grimderp is quite irritating.
No wait is not irritating is infuriating.

Give a real example of what is now "gone".

Squats. Moving on...

First - Squats are still in the lore and nothing is preventing you from fielding them as Guard or tiny Space Marines (I've seen a full army of them as just that). Additionally, GW of a decade ago is not the GW right now. The GW right now is making all sorts of good decisions and introducing things instead of removing them.

Second - I was asking what of someone's "personal story" is now gone. Give me one specific example about how the inclusion of Primarchs will suddenly invalidate your personal fluff/fanfiction.

A minor mention in the 6th Edition Rulebook barely brings them back to what they were. Also, justifying that you can still use squats while playing other armies rules doesn't help - but that's ok, they're still in the lore.

Again, it's not that they are getting rules, it's what it means - imagine if they decide that oops! Fenris just got blown to bits by Magnus! Or if the existence of Fallen is revealed to the Imperium, for example? Can you see the issues here, how it would impact the players?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


Lost and the damned in 3rd, eye of terror. How long it took before FW "fixed" that (and is still actually another army).

Forgot about those. It was a really fun matchup too :(

Requizen wrote:


First - Squats are still in the lore and nothing is preventing you from fielding them as Guard or tiny Space Marines (I've seen a full army of them as just that). Additionally, GW of a decade ago is not the GW right now. The GW right now is making all sorts of good decisions and introducing things instead of removing them.

This is disingenuous, at best.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Give a real example of what is now "gone".

Lost and the damned in 3rd, eye of terror. How long it took before FW "fixed" that (and is still actually another army).

That's not what the complaining is about. If you don't like the direction of the story, nothing can be done for your. The story does not belong to the community, and currently I believe you are in the minority regarding the direction.
If you're worried about entire armies getting "squatted", don't be. They've been reintroducing armies at a rapid rate. Nothing is getting removed.

The complaining I'm talking about is this:

I fear you missed the part in which he explains that an army he put effort into is gone because "fluff must go on".

the world your RPG campaign is set on gets wiped out, the character you've built your army around is killed, the faction that got you into the game is fundamentally changed, the storyline you and your friends have been collectively writing for years with successive campaigns gets casually overwritten because GW decided to set the latest chapter of their "grand narrative" in the same place and then take that narrative in a direction totally incompatible with your own work.

What specifically is getting wiped out? What of your personal setting is gone? Please give an example instead of whining.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

A minor mention in the 6th Edition Rulebook barely brings them back to what they were. Also, justifying that you can still use squats while playing other armies rules doesn't help - but that's ok, they're still in the lore.

Again, it's not that they are getting rules, it's what it means - imagine if they decide that oops! Fenris just got blown to bits by Magnus! Or if the existence of Fallen is revealed to the Imperium, for example? Can you see the issues here, how it would impact the players?

First - if you really think they're going to blow up Fenris you're nuts. Accusing them of doing something they won't do doesn't help your position.

Second, how will that affect the players? Unless your entire story takes place on Fenris and the impossible happens, it doesn't matter. Even if it does, you can continue your story in the moments before it happens. It does not affect the players in any meaningful way.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Here's one for you. Is Magnus going to be a 1 version kit, or will he be a multi purpose kit, and the lord of change will be the same kit.

I personally think magnus will be a unique kit, as his entire body is too muscular and humanoid and primarchy to be in an LOC kit, and that will take up most of the sprues in the kit.

More likely we see a kit that makes 2 or 3 variants of LOC, that also shares a sprue with an eventual kairos fateweaver release, similar to what they did with the bloodthirsters and skarbrand.

The more unique magnus is the more they can soak chaos players for multiple different kits, also.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Requizen wrote:


First - Squats are still in the lore and nothing is preventing you from fielding them as Guard or tiny Space Marines (I've seen a full army of them as just that). Additionally, GW of a decade ago is not the GW right now. The GW right now is making all sorts of good decisions and introducing things instead of removing them.

This is disingenuous, at best.

Oh, they haven't reintroduced Skitarii, Cult Mechanicus, Khorne Daemonkin, Genestealer Cults, and Deathwatch? They haven't made 30k plastics? They aren't bringing back specialist games? They haven't joined and utilized social media? They haven't done FAQs at the behest of the community? They haven't worked with community leaders to introduce points to AoS?

90%+ of the decisions being made in the past year are good ones. You're either ignoring them and focusing on the bad or are just whining for the sake of whining.

No army is going to get squatted. They just put in two new ones (three if you count Renegade Knights, more in the past year and a half) and have heavily insinuated that Sisters are getting updated in their last video. If you think a plastic Magnus means they're going to destroy exisiting armies, you're insane.

Requizen wrote:

First - if you really think they're going to blow up Fenris you're nuts. Accusing them of doing something they won't do doesn't help your position.

Learn to read, please. I'm not accusing them of doing it. I'm givign you examples.

Also, if you asked the players 5 or so years ago about the possibility of the Loyalist Primarchs returning for 40k, they'd reply "if you really think they're going to bring back Russ and the rest, you're nuts."

See where I'm headed here? Just because it's not plausible right now doesn't mean they won't do it later anyway. Related to this... how's the WHFB Old World lately? Ashes you mean? Wait you mean they destroyed it?? An entire setting??

Requizen wrote:
Second, how will that affect the players? Unless your entire story takes place on Fenris and the impossible happens, it doesn't matter. Even if it does, you can continue your story in the moments before it happens. It does not affect the players in any meaningful way.

You DO know that there are several players that craft their chapter's entire history around such details, right? RIGHT? Or are you simply ignoring it? Please tell me you don't truly believe the existence of the Fallen coming out to the Imperium wouldn't shake the foundation of the Unforgiven and affect ALL Unforgiven Chapters.




Automatically Appended Next Post:


I like how you insult people if they disagree with you. Very funny little thing...

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Sauron and the other major players all have models in the LOTR game.

Gandalf and the other wizards are minor gods, as are quite a few other characters - it depends on how the game is focussed.

Talking about the book. The fact that GW has a game is coincidental - and even in this case, you explained: the power level and scope is different. Not by chance, a match Gandalf + Aragorn vs Sauron looks odd for a lore-monkey.

This is valid for the movie as well. Jackson wanted a confrontation Aragorn vs Sauron at the Morannon, but luckily people talked him out of that mess and we had a CGI Troll of Gorgoroth beating the crap out of the heir of Isildur instead.

Isildur and Elrond versus Sauron is a thing in the books, film and game.

Gladriel kicking Saurons ass is one of the best things in the Hobbit film.

Eowyn versus the Ringwraith Lord

LOTR is all about epic confrontations between either legndary characters or one ofthem and mere human hero's - the Similiarian is the same. its not just about a bunch of hobbits

Off topic, I know, but wasn't the curbstomp Elendil and Isildur and Elrond and Gil-Galad vs Sauron?

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

See where I'm headed here? Just because it's not plausible right now doesn't mean they won't do it later anyway. Related to this... how's the WHFB Old World lately? Ashes you mean? Wait you mean they destroyed it?? An entire setting??

And there was a massive gakstorm to the point that the wake of the event caused (at least in part) an entire restructuring of the company. Nothing insinuates they're going to do the same thing to 40k. Every reliable rumor source is saying it won't happen. Saying "but what if!" doesn't make your claims of doomsaying seem reasonable. Just the opposite, in fact.

Requizen wrote:
Second, how will that affect the players? Unless your entire story takes place on Fenris and the impossible happens, it doesn't matter. Even if it does, you can continue your story in the moments before it happens. It does not affect the players in any meaningful way.

You DO know that there are several players that craft their chapter's entire history around such details, right? RIGHT? Or are you simply ignoring it? Please tell me you don't truly believe the existence of the Fallen coming out to the Imperium wouldn't shake the foundation of the Unforgiven and affect ALL Unforgiven Chapters.

And? That doesn't change your army, just moves it forward.

If suddenly the Fallen became known, it wouldn't suddenly make Dark Angels into a Traitor legion. It wouldn't make your dudes impossible to play. All it would take is for your story to add "and this is how our chapter dealt with the revelation". Anyone who put in the time to write this background fluff to their story will have no problems finding time to add a few more lines to it.

I like how you insult people if they disagree with you. Very funny little thing...

And I dislike how people take their random fearmongering and baseless claims and think they can wave it around like it's truth.

You know the more I see this model the more I like it. I guess that's the changer of ways for you. If I ever was to start a chaos faction it would be Tzeentch and now Thousands Sons... if it weren't for me starting DW just recently and having some DE waiting for their cool formations update I could very well be tempted. Then again with a real possibility of Kroot happening in the future or a new xenos I have to keep on guard.

Here have a cool Tzeentch song.

I'll tackle this, since you're being a bit dense about it.

Say you play Dark Angels. And now they bring back Lion El'Johnson. Except surprise, the Watchers in the Dark weren't guarding him, they were guarding *against* him. He's corrupted by chaos. He's a traitor. Most of the Dark Angels and their successors fall in line with him, a crazy civil war is fought. Azrael and a minority of Dark Angels live on as scattered rag-tag rebels while The Lion quests to become a Daemon Prince.

What a great story, right? What a cool twist that plays on the themes of the Dark Angels while giving you two new factions to play that aren't like the old Dark Angels at all - the New Fallen and the Survivors or whatever.

Except it's not just a story, it's a new setting now. The story you wanted is a few campaign books. The new setting is the result of it, because this is what you asked for - shaking things up. And the 8th edition Dark Angels codex will reflect this. Tons of space will be dedicated to fleshing out the new reality, while a bone will be thrown to grognards in the form of a few paragraphs describing what the Dark Angels used to be like.

Sure, you can keep your old fashioned Dark Angels army with its outdated organization and color scheme and you can play things out in 999M41as long as you like, because you know the old fluff and have old sources and you can approximate things with the 8th edition rules.

But your army is dead as you know it. New players will not understand the theme or tone or history of your army, because it isnt written about in new material. And all because some people couldn't comprehend how to enjoy the game unless something galaxy-shaking huge and crazy happened to some named characters in a campaign book.

"They wouldn't do something that nuts!" you might say. But then again, look at AoS. It's totally possible. And if they don't do something nuts, have they actually advanced the story like you want? If things aren't different, what is the point? By definition you want the setting to change. Fortunately I think GW is smarter than that. They know the setting is the cash-cow. They won't disrupt it.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
I'll tackle this, since you're being a bit dense about it.

Say you play Dark Angels. And now they bring back Lion El'Johnson. Except surprise, the Watchers in the Dark weren't guarding him, they were guarding *against* him. He's corrupted by chaos. He's a traitor. Most of the Dark Angels and their successors fall in line with him, a crazy civil war is fought. Azrael and a minority of Dark Angels live on as scattered rag-tag rebels while The Lion quests to become a Daemon Prince.

What a great story, right? What a cool twist that plays on the themes of the Dark Angels while giving you two new factions to play that aren't like the old Dark Angels at all - the New Fallen and the Survivors or whatever.

Except it's not just a story, it's a new setting now. The story you wanted is a few campaign books. The new setting is the result of it, because this is what you asked for - shaking things up. And the 8th edition Dark Angels codex will reflect this. Tons of space will be dedicated to fleshing out the new reality, while a bone will be thrown to grognards in the form of a few paragraphs describing what the Dark Angels used to be like.

Sure, you can keep your old fashioned Dark Angels army with its outdated organization and color scheme and you can play things out in 999M41as long as you like, because you know the old fluff and have old sources and you can approximate things with the 8th edition rules.

But your army is dead as you know it. New players will not understand the theme or tone or history of your army, because it isnt written about in new material. And all because some people couldn't comprehend how to enjoy the game unless something galaxy-shaking huge and crazy happened to some named characters in a campaign book.

Overall I still disagree with your side of the argument, but this was a really good way of putting it. Really helped me understand your perspective. Respectfully disagree, but exalted.

You know it is not end times right? That was just a convenient fan label coopted from the previous big lore upheaval. Reliable rumor mongers who predicted all of this have told us to calm down as it is not going to be a complete reset of the fluff.

So simmer down please your getting mad at nothing.

Edit
Ah there is allegedly one traitor primarch though which I think is a good thing. There is also allegedly one chaos primarch who will turn out to be good. If what I'm remembering turns out to be true.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
I'll tackle this, since you're being a bit dense about it.

Say you play Dark Angels. And now they bring back Lion El'Johnson. Except surprise, the Watchers in the Dark weren't guarding him, they were guarding *against* him. He's corrupted by chaos. He's a traitor. Most of the Dark Angels and their successors fall in line with him, a crazy civil war is fought. Azrael and a minority of Dark Angels live on as scattered rag-tag rebels while The Lion quests to become a Daemon Prince.

What a great story, right? What a cool twist that plays on the themes of the Dark Angels while giving you two new factions to play that aren't like the old Dark Angels at all - the New Fallen and the Survivors or whatever.

Except it's not just a story, it's a new setting now. The story you wanted is a few campaign books. The new setting is the result of it, because this is what you asked for - shaking things up. And the 8th edition Dark Angels codex will reflect this. Tons of space will be dedicated to fleshing out the new reality, while a bone will be thrown to grognards in the form of a few paragraphs describing what the Dark Angels used to be like.

Sure, you can keep your old fashioned Dark Angels army with its outdated organization and color scheme and you can play things out in 999M41as long as you like, because you know the old fluff and have old sources and you can approximate things with the 8th edition rules.

But your army is dead as you know it. New players will not understand the theme or tone or history of your army, because it isnt written about in new material. And all because some people couldn't comprehend how to enjoy the game unless something galaxy-shaking huge and crazy happened to some named characters in a campaign book.

Why is the army dead? You seem to just be saying "this happened and now it's dead" with no reasoning as to why. But what realistically could they change that would invalidate your whole army or make it inconsistent?

Make it so all loyalist DAs are now Traitors? They wouldn't do that because it's too big of a difference.
Change the army's color scheme, forcing you to repaint? Again, they wouldn't do that because it's been established forever now. If you're a successor chapter, it doesn't even matter to you.
Remove Ravenwing and Deathwing? See #1. Wouldn't happen, it's too iconic.


The issue I'm having with this thread is that people are taking off the wall, completely ridiculous leaps. We've gone from "new primarch model" to "GW will change the very foundations of the game to the point that no current army will exist and we all have to start from scratch". Can you rationalize that? Can you really, truly, actually rationalize that leap of logic?

 Gamgee wrote:
There is also allegedly one chaos primarch who will turn out to be good. If what I'm remembering turns out to be true.

? Chaos Primarch or Traitor Primarch? There's a difference. Where the hell did Alpharius/Omegron go, anyway?

 Mr Morden wrote:


Isildur and Elrond versus Sauron is a thing in the books, film and game.

Gladriel kicking Saurons ass is one of the best things in the Hobbit film.

Eowyn versus the Ringwraith Lord

LOTR is all about epic confrontations between either legndary characters or one ofthem and mere human hero's - the Similiarian is the same. its not just about a bunch of hobbits

Let's see...

Isildur and Elrond (and Elendil and Gil-galad, they did most of the hard lifting!) is Horus Heresy.

Gladriel kicking Saurons ass is [THAT MOVIE DOES NOT EXIST][EXPUNGED FROM ARCHIVES]. Let's say is fanfiction. Should not count. But let's take it seriously: In the books in unclear and is in an appendix. So is more like the Armageddon campaign and Angron fading on the background.

Eowyn versus the Ringwraith Lord is Calgar vs Typhus.

See my point now?

 kronk wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
There is also allegedly one chaos primarch who will turn out to be good. If what I'm remembering turns out to be true.

? Chaos Primarch or Traitor Primarch? There's a difference. Where the hell did Alpharius/Omegron go, anyway?

One was "killed" by Guillaman and the other is rumored to have become Janus the founding master of the grey knights.