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SKR.HH wrote:
True. But therefore I'm quite astounded about the possibilities that are currently provided (not only by GW but others as well) in terms of splitting up a mini on a frame and thus allowing for undercuts on the minis itself and avoiding mould lines in that process.

Thinking back to some of the first minis I had they were split halfways through the body (either horizontally or vertically) and they truly had limitations in their design (and resulted in very bad mould lines as well).

If I remember correctly the more advanced splitting of products/miniatures is a product of better CAD software that automates that to some degree. We get these strange pieces that don't look like they should fit together but result in needing fewer pieces as well as being able to have more instances of what looks like undercuts when assembled. But they still can't solve that problem at the knees (would need more pieces) and GW like to put all the other bits on the frame. I would love to be able to get Marines where you have multiple sub-assemblies that make the whole miniature. Not as extreme as this but just more pieces so details don't get lost. I think the parts for figurine in the video are snap fit and it offers, I think, full articulation and it's also much bigger than a Space Marine (one arm alone has more parts than a Space Marine, the hand is a whole little sub-assembly).

Considering the other things you pointed out I'm not sure whether this is eventually a consequence (or limitation) of the product or a deliberate design decision. For example looking at my GSC I clearly see that the bottom of the robes are not modelled in detail... because you usually can't see them. Fro the layout on the sprues I assume that would have been possible to do some modelling there.

The robes I am talking about are just the regular ones you see on marines if they have to be done in one piece (like robed Dark Angels Space Marines, they can hide some of that with mono-pose multi-piece characters). The cloth just looks a bit flat or toy-ish because they don't have undercuts. Here's are some examples of "one piece robes/cloaks" (look at the bits around the legs) where undercuts allow for subtle layering that would need extra (and a bit chunkier) bits to work on plastic miniatures (the examples are/were metal miniatures). The style is not exactly realistic but they just look so much more sculptural (and are so much more fun to paint) and less like toys:
http://s914.photobucket.com/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/Griffins%20of%20Akkylannie/EscheliustheArdent.jpg.html
http://s914.photobucket.com/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/Griffins%20of%20Akkylannie/GarelltheRedeemer.jpg.html
http://s914.photobucket.com/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/Griffins%20of%20Akkylannie/GriffinExorcist.jpg.html
http://s914.photobucket.com/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/Griffins%20of%20Akkylannie/GriffinTemplars2.jpg.html
http://s914.photobucket.com/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/Griffins%20of%20Akkylannie/PraetorianGuard.jpg.html
http://s914.photobucket.com/user/RackhamMiniatures/media/Griffins%20of%20Akkylannie/TheTemplarsofHod.jpg.html

If I remember correctly all the bodies are one piece, arms/weapons/heads are sometimes addition bits and the exorcist's cross (in front of the torso) is also separate.

I assume that GW features are often exaggerated by design (like in your example with the knee pads)... which helps average painters like me. And then we are back to aesthetics...

I don't know how a blobby kneepad helps average painter. The benefit miniatures have is that you get a sort of paint by numbers guide build into the sculpt (edge here, new piece there, and so on) and smearing of details leaves you with less guidelines. If it had crisply defined lines one would see much easier where to highlight and could do the brush side slide along the sharp edge type of highlight (and washes could be used easier on these areas too). I kinda feel lost when there's this tiny chunk of matter that doesn't belong there but it's just there to fills space.

 Mymearan wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Dreamforge Dames Leviathan > GW knight, Eisenkern Valkir > Space Marines
Malifaux Models or Gundams too

So do those models do ALL the stuff I listed, and better than GW? You just listed some names but no reason why they're better. And you cherry-picked two specific GW kits that also happen to be a couple of years old...

Dreamforge leviathan is an awesome kit to put together I got the full size one for £50 it's a good size bigger for less money, it's got far more possibility and really looks like a major threat.

Once painted with a few transfers it looks great towering over dreadnoughts and infantry.

hobojebus wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Dreamforge Dames Leviathan > GW knight, Eisenkern Valkir > Space Marines
Malifaux Models or Gundams too

So do those models do ALL the stuff I listed, and better than GW? You just listed some names but no reason why they're better. And you cherry-picked two specific GW kits that also happen to be a couple of years old...

Dreamforge leviathan is an awesome kit to put together I got the full size one for £50 it's a good size bigger for less money, it's got far more possibility and really looks like a major threat.

Once painted with a few transfers it looks great towering over dreadnoughts and infantry.

Aesthetics aside the quality of Dreamforge are just as good as stuff made by GW, made by a mostly one man operation, outsourcing production and in smaller numbers than GW at a lower price than GW.
GW has crippling overhead costs, but by lowering the prices they would sell more, getting more revenue.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Dreamforge Dames Leviathan > GW knight, Eisenkern Valkir > Space Marines
Malifaux Models or Gundams too

So do those models do ALL the stuff I listed, and better than GW? You just listed some names but no reason why they're better. And you cherry-picked two specific GW kits that also happen to be a couple of years old...

Dreamforge leviathan is an awesome kit to put together I got the full size one for £50 it's a good size bigger for less money, it's got far more possibility and really looks like a major threat.

Once painted with a few transfers it looks great towering over dreadnoughts and infantry.

Aesthetics aside the quality of Dreamforge are just as good as stuff made by GW, made by a mostly one man operation, outsourcing production and in smaller numbers than GW at a lower price than GW.
GW has crippling overhead costs, but by lowering the prices they would sell more, getting more revenue.

Except that is what we're arguing, production quality. They are still transferred to mold by WGF and they do the cuts and placement in the molds and they produce the sprues. And back to an earlier comment regrading warping, that is a production issue that can be fixed by letting the sprue cool for a few seconds more before removing. The reason they don't is production time, they want to get that production order done as fast as possible so they go to the next customer. Making figs for other companies means they cut corners to speed up production time.

That is where I feel WGF produced stuff is inferior to GW. The Kingdom Death figures were stated as being a flagship product for WGF and comparing it's production quality it isn't on par.

 silent25 wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Dreamforge Dames Leviathan > GW knight, Eisenkern Valkir > Space Marines
Malifaux Models or Gundams too

So do those models do ALL the stuff I listed, and better than GW? You just listed some names but no reason why they're better. And you cherry-picked two specific GW kits that also happen to be a couple of years old...

Dreamforge leviathan is an awesome kit to put together I got the full size one for £50 it's a good size bigger for less money, it's got far more possibility and really looks like a major threat.

Once painted with a few transfers it looks great towering over dreadnoughts and infantry.

Aesthetics aside the quality of Dreamforge are just as good as stuff made by GW, made by a mostly one man operation, outsourcing production and in smaller numbers than GW at a lower price than GW.
GW has crippling overhead costs, but by lowering the prices they would sell more, getting more revenue.

Except that is what we're arguing, production quality. They are still transferred to mold by WGF and they do the cuts and placement in the molds and they produce the sprues. And back to an earlier comment regrading warping, that is a production issue that can be fixed by letting the sprue cool for a few seconds more before removing. The reason they don't is production time, they want to get that production order done as fast as possible so they go to the next customer. Making figs for other companies means they cut corners to speed up production time.

That is where I feel WGF produced stuff is inferior to GW. The Kingdom Death figures were stated as being a flagship product for WGF and comparing it's production quality it isn't on par.

So you are blaming Dreamforge for the lack of quality control at Wargames factory? Those issues where resolved in later runs, if you go that route then what does finecast say about GW's quality? Or the many Miscasts from forgeworld?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

Spoiler:

 silent25 wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Dreamforge Dames Leviathan > GW knight, Eisenkern Valkir > Space Marines
Malifaux Models or Gundams too

So do those models do ALL the stuff I listed, and better than GW? You just listed some names but no reason why they're better. And you cherry-picked two specific GW kits that also happen to be a couple of years old...

Dreamforge leviathan is an awesome kit to put together I got the full size one for £50 it's a good size bigger for less money, it's got far more possibility and really looks like a major threat.

Once painted with a few transfers it looks great towering over dreadnoughts and infantry.

Aesthetics aside the quality of Dreamforge are just as good as stuff made by GW, made by a mostly one man operation, outsourcing production and in smaller numbers than GW at a lower price than GW.
GW has crippling overhead costs, but by lowering the prices they would sell more, getting more revenue.

Except that is what we're arguing, production quality. They are still transferred to mold by WGF and they do the cuts and placement in the molds and they produce the sprues. And back to an earlier comment regrading warping, that is a production issue that can be fixed by letting the sprue cool for a few seconds more before removing. The reason they don't is production time, they want to get that production order done as fast as possible so they go to the next customer. Making figs for other companies means they cut corners to speed up production time.

That is where I feel WGF produced stuff is inferior to GW. The Kingdom Death figures were stated as being a flagship product for WGF and comparing it's production quality it isn't on par.

So you are blaming Dreamforge for the lack of quality control at Wargames factory? Those issues where resolved in later runs, if you go that route then what does finecast say about GW's quality? Or the many Miscasts from forgeworld?

Apparently they weren't because the warping I saw was on recent Kingdom Death pieces. You can have the best designs in the world, but if the manufacturer is cutting corners, it brings you down.

Yes, we can go down the quality the quality route. Remember we're talking about how GW has gotten better in the last year. They don't have crap finecast anymore. I recently go a couple resin pieces and blemish free. So another mark in favor of GW improving over the last couple years. For forgeworld, the regulars in my area who get it say their casting quality has also improved tremendously. The irony of the Chinese recasters doing better casts forced them to up their game.

 kodos wrote:
Dreamforge Dames Leviathan > GW knight, Eisenkern Valkir > Space Marines
Malifaux Models or Gundams too

I wouldn't call the Valkir superior to space marines, at least not the most modern space marine kits, but they are definitely close. The valkir feel more aesthetically limited, probably because their creator isn't the right kind of daft to mount one on a giant wolf or give one a winged codpiece. Also, blunt-tipped swords have always been stupid.

Agreed about the Leviathan. I just wish there were more head options.

Clearly GW has vastly improved recently.

That won't extinguish the flames of hate they have fed for years within some of the community members, but it's quite transparent.

40K 7th edition finally starts to bridge 40K and ForgeWorld and also contains the cleanest rule set so far, with the few interesting rules question bothering only tournament players if anyone at all.
40K FAQ answering many of the community's questions... that is nearly unbelievable but it's on the way.
All new codexes being reasonably playable: Nothing as bad as Chaos Space Marines or Dark Eldar has come out of GW since... Dark Eldar (well that might be their one big mistake there lol)
Cheaper starter bundles: I couldn't care less but there are some really sweet deals out there compared to what we've had for a long time.

White Dwarf is back to the old White Dwarf, or at least getting closer to it.

GW has finally acknowledged the death of Warhammer Battle and is trying out new things to resurrect it in a better way. AoS is just a beta for the next gen whfb which hopefully will be more welcoming to new players, with less needlessly convoluted rules (smack someone with the 8th edition bible and ask them if it's not the heaviest ruleset of all...).

Social Media presence...


It would take some seriously profound hatred to blind someone from the obvious turn for the better GW has taken lately.


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hobojebus wrote:


Dreamforge leviathan is an awesome kit to put together I got the full size one for £50 it's a good size bigger for less money, it's got far more possibility and really looks like a major threat.

Once painted with a few transfers it looks great towering over dreadnoughts and infantry.

To me, it looks like a regular toy with a lot less detail than a miniature and I'm not sure the manufacturing process could produce the kind of detail we've come to expect from GW plastics.

I'm sure some people don't care, like some people are fine with cardboard titans, improperly prepped miniatures or lower-end tabletop painting, but I personally wouldn't buy an eldar equivalent of the Leviathan if it were available.

All in all, I think both the Imperial Knight and the Leviathan are at a fair price point, you do get what you pay for.

They have improved, but their business model is unclear to me.
Supplementary books, formations in 40k, no new codices, slow release of AoS factions, board games, and whatnot.

It's the throw everything at the wall and see what sticks stratagem.

GW released some good boxed games, SC, the Kill Team box and made2order are a good start at least, but stuff is still ridiculously priced direcr from GW (see: Khârn) and rules for the main games messy and bloated (40k) or too light (AoS). If they want to become good again the still have a long way to go. We still don't know if the boardgames are a testbed for new mechanics or if they neglect this huge opportunity.

Being older, the big boxes, stuff like AdMech and the tanking pound made me spend more on GW than basically the decade before, though (which is not that hard, though, since I didn't buy anything for a couple of years and only starter sets in the rest, cause my armies where/are left in a sorry state and stuff in Germany simply stupid expensive for new products). That ans bits shops, oh ny poor wallet.

So I'd say they're on a better track, but that track still doesn't lead to candy land.

morgoth wrote:
also contains the cleanest rule set so far

"Clear" is just one requirement for a ruleset, of many. If a ruleset clearly sucks, is not a good one.

Besides. 7th edition 40K is just about as far opposite of a "clean" rules set as it's possible to get, so I have no idea what the hell morgoth is smoking in order to come to that conclusion.

 Zywus wrote:
Besides. 7th edition 40K is just about as far opposite of a "clean" rules set as it's possible to get, so I have no idea what the hell morgoth is smoking in order to come to that conclusion.

Plastic crack?

I haven't been playing too long, only since 6th dropped, but the rule set is the weakest aspect of 40k, IMO.

High prices are a foregone conclusion at this point (always have been, since I was a kid collecting them) and we do what we can to mitigate that. Buy less, buy from discount retailers, buy from recasters, whatever. Just use what one has already - the cheapest option.

But for rules, you aren't gonna escape those. The game is still fun, definitely playable, but the rules are a freakin mess. This aspect of the game has not improved at all since Roundtree(?) took over, IMO.

 Zywus wrote:
Besides. 7th edition 40K is just about as far opposite of a "clean" rules set as it's possible to get, so I have no idea what the hell morgoth is smoking in order to come to that conclusion.

Prior editions of the game had a lot of unanswered questions and interactions, and in many ways, 7th edition is less "buggy" than prior editions. It is, however, a very bloated rule set, with a ton of complexity that does not add much to game play.

I recently read Sid Meier's quote that "A game is a series of interesting choices." In that regard, 7th edition isn't a failure, but a lot of the rules fail to really add value. The random nature of a lot of tables in theory adds a narrative element to the game, but really strips players of choice, instead make them roll dice.

I think GW is headed in a great direction and look forward to the products of the future!

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
Besides. 7th edition 40K is just about as far opposite of a "clean" rules set as it's possible to get, so I have no idea what the hell morgoth is smoking in order to come to that conclusion.

Plastic crack?

Don't we all man, don't we all

My entire play group has switched to X-Wing for game play and Bandai kits for when we feel like building something (though we also still game with those using whatever rules we feel like).

So while I think GW has improved over the last year, they haven't improved enough to get anyone's money again.

We are also Blood Bowl fanatics and no one seems interested in the new set. We played for the years GW left the BB community to support the games itself and we simply don't need GW's involvement. In our local social media group it was like "who's pre ordering the new BB set?" and it was like crickets. Impact or Black Scorpion release something and it's a dogpile into a group order to save on shipping.

 frozenwastes wrote:
My entire play group has switched to X-Wing for game play and Bandai kits for when we feel like building something (though we also still game with those using whatever rules we feel like).

So while I think GW has improved over the last year, they haven't improved enough to get anyone's money again.

We are also Blood Bowl fanatics and no one seems interested in the new set. We played for the years GW left the BB community to support the games itself and we simply don't need GW's involvement. In our local social media group it was like "who's pre ordering the new BB set?" and it was like crickets. Impact or Black Scorpion release something and it's a dogpile into a group order to save on shipping.

Black Scorpions BB models are great, affordable and well worth supporting.

Too many other companies make great bb models now to make GW's stuff must have, much cheaper to boot.

Same with gothic and mordheim, we had ten years without support and managed just fine.

I'm not gonna rush out to rebuy rules I already own when it's bound to be £95 again.

 Zywus wrote:
Besides. 7th edition 40K is just about as far opposite of a "clean" rules set as it's possible to get, so I have no idea what the hell morgoth is smoking in order to come to that conclusion.

All things being relative, I'm just comparing it to previous editions that I have read, i.e. from 4th to 7th.

To me, this ruleset is cleaner, better and with less gaping holes left and right.

Oh and I'm on resin crack these days, more than plastic.

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 Polonius wrote:

 Zywus wrote:
Besides. 7th edition 40K is just about as far opposite of a "clean" rules set as it's possible to get, so I have no idea what the hell morgoth is smoking in order to come to that conclusion.

Prior editions of the game had a lot of unanswered questions and interactions, and in many ways, 7th edition is less "buggy" than prior editions. It is, however, a very bloated rule set, with a ton of complexity that does not add much to game play.

That's what I meant indeed. less loopholes.

So now gw is making a community website and putting models painted by the community in thier product pages. I said before that gw's improvements are a work on progress. It is good to see that work continuing.

The community will only work if they realize that they WILL see unproductive chaff comments like "lower prices" or "get rid of Age of Suckmar and bring back WHFB". They have to sift through those comments and find actual useful ideas and suggestions. If they just stifle any criticism and only encourage praise, it'll be worse than useless because it will just be an echo chamber that benefits nobody.

Both of those ARE useful suggestions.

But what about those people that don't want WHFB and like Age of "suckmar".

Who's to say they can't keep both? Or you could play a dead system, like everyone who stuck with WFB.

 Just Tony wrote:
Who's to say they can't keep both? Or you could play a dead system, like everyone who stuck with WFB.

Is it really dead when GW is still selling 8th edition Fantasy? At least on iPad they still are. So it can't really be that dead. Yes I know not being sold in stores, I just find it weird it's still on the iPad store (or whatever it's called).

The OP seems to have spelled argue incorrectly.

 auticus wrote:
But what about those people that don't want WHFB and like Age of "suckmar".

They'll grow out of it.