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Paying to watch competitive games isn't any more strange than paying for sports channels. If you want advertising (presentation videos, interviews, painting guides etc) you can watch it for free on their YouTube channel.

Another thing to note is that's warhammer live is free to watch live. Doesn't help people in an inconvenient time zone but it is something to consider.

Yeah, I know a guy who pays to watch Starcraft events live.

Those same events are then uploaded for free to watch whenever sometime after the event.

GW have been releasing and rereleasing a lot of new stuff and models. My only disagreement is them making Fateweaver and the lord of change no longer to scale with the older figures. Why should I lay $115-140 for something I already own? I guess I can just make them Daemon Princes but now I'm questioning if I should even put the effort in to painting them since they might eventually make DPs even larger. Same mindset could set a future tyranid army at the same size or larger with prices going from $45-80 can now expect paying up to 115-200 in their next update for MCs.

I think the bigger more exposed MCs started with the KDK bloodthrister. The newer and upcoming MCs are beautiful don't misunderstand me but I wish I didn't have to rebuy something I already own. I feel GW should give owners a discount/refund if they send in their models no longer to scale but it won't happen. Overall, the updates to everything last year and a half have been exceptional besides the size change of figures. I won't deny I want to buy them, but it's starting to become unaffordable.

I have to agree that GW has gotten better with connecting with their fanbase, and using their customer feedback to make the games better. Though thier prices are way out to lunch. I don't mind their prices on an Imperial Knight or large models, but terminators, dreads, and characters as well as many others, are way to damn expensive. I would love to buy 2 Death Company Chaplains, but spending $80+ on 2 small models is ridiculous.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
and paying for another company to advertise to you is a mug's game.

I don't understand "mug's game". May you please explain. Is that an Aussie expression or something or did it just go right over my head.

 Defeatmyarmy wrote:
My only disagreement is them making Fateweaver and the lord of change no longer to scale with the older figures. Why should I lay $115-140 for something I already own? I guess I can just make them Daemon Princes but now I'm questioning if I should even put the effort in to painting them since they might eventually make DPs even larger.

The newer and upcoming MCs are beautiful don't misunderstand me but I wish I didn't have to rebuy something I already own. I feel GW should give owners a discount/refund if they send in their models no longer to scale but it won't happen.

Guh...?

One bit:

Why should I lay $115-140 for something I already own?

That's a very good question. Problem is, I think you've come up with answers that aren't "I shouldn't".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:
I don't understand "mug's game". May you please explain. Is that an Aussie expression or something or did it just go right over my head.

Aussie and brit. In simplest terms, replace 'mug' with 'fool'.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/a+mug's+game

@Vermis

The argument is, I used to buy 3 squads/ 2 and a vehicle for that price. Basically that is over the course of 2-4 paychecks I would be able to afford that price. When you add the thought to it that I already own that model, I feel a cheaper alternative would be to just glue my old MC to a large rock and claim it is now to scale rather than pay $115-140.

Prices are emmm not always the best, but I am loving the boxed games they are bringing out, especially warhammer quest.
The community site is better than the old blog, don't do Facebook so can't speak for that.

In general there in my eyes have been improvements but they need to sustain that and not fall back to old ways.

Also people need to remember they are a company and making money is there business

 Defeatmyarmy wrote:
My only disagreement is them making Fateweaver and the lord of change no longer to scale with the older figures.

That's not what out of scale means.

 Defeatmyarmy wrote:
Why should I lay $115-140 for something I already own?

Who says you have to?

 Defeatmyarmy wrote:
GW have been releasing and rereleasing a lot of new stuff and models. My only disagreement is them making Fateweaver and the lord of change no longer to scale with the older figures. Why should I lay $115-140 for something I already own? I guess I can just make them Daemon Princes but now I'm questioning if I should even put the effort in to painting them since they might eventually make DPs even larger. Same mindset could set a future tyranid army at the same size or larger with prices going from $45-80 can now expect paying up to 115-200 in their next update for MCs.

I think the bigger more exposed MCs started with the KDK bloodthrister. The newer and upcoming MCs are beautiful don't misunderstand me but I wish I didn't have to rebuy something I already own. I feel GW should give owners a discount/refund if they send in their models no longer to scale but it won't happen. Overall, the updates to everything last year and a half have been exceptional besides the size change of figures. I won't deny I want to buy them, but it's starting to become unaffordable.

Well if you are happy with older models why not just keep using them? Old models are perfectly fine and legal models so unless you hate the look no reason to not use them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Defeatmyarmy wrote:
Why should I lay $115-140 for something I already own?

Who says you have to?

This. Just because they release a new model for an existing unit doesn't mean that you have to buy it. There's no way that GW was going to get me to buy the new Broadside kit when I already had enough of the old metal/plastic kits (especially with the railgun nerf and no change to the statline to warrant them suddenly doubling in size).

tneva82 wrote:

 Defeatmyarmy wrote:
GW have been releasing and rereleasing a lot of new stuff and models. My only disagreement is them making Fateweaver and the lord of change no longer to scale with the older figures. Why should I lay $115-140 for something I already own? I guess I can just make them Daemon Princes but now I'm questioning if I should even put the effort in to painting them since they might eventually make DPs even larger. Same mindset could set a future tyranid army at the same size or larger with prices going from $45-80 can now expect paying up to 115-200 in their next update for MCs.

I think the bigger more exposed MCs started with the KDK bloodthrister. The newer and upcoming MCs are beautiful don't misunderstand me but I wish I didn't have to rebuy something I already own. I feel GW should give owners a discount/refund if they send in their models no longer to scale but it won't happen. Overall, the updates to everything last year and a half have been exceptional besides the size change of figures. I won't deny I want to buy them, but it's starting to become unaffordable.

Well if you are happy with older models why not just keep using them? Old models are perfectly fine and legal models so unless you hate the look no reason to not use them.

Because the GW hobby is buying GW miniatures?

tneva82 wrote:

Well if you are happy with older models why not just keep using them? Old models are perfectly fine and legal models so unless you hate the look no reason to not use them.

If you use models old enough, there's a chance you'll get pulled up for using non-GW models in stores, as the staffer probably won't recognise them. How much effort you wanted to put in from that point is up to you, but the tab that says "GW" will be well hidden by the base.

Herzlos wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Well if you are happy with older models why not just keep using them? Old models are perfectly fine and legal models so unless you hate the look no reason to not use them.

If you use models old enough, there's a chance you'll get pulled up for using non-GW models in stores, as the staffer probably won't recognise them. How much effort you wanted to put in from that point is up to you, but the tab that says "GW" will be well hidden by the base.

I doubt this scenario happens more often than a handful of times, worldwide. If ever. Sounds like pure scaremongering to me.

In case it ever happens, with everyone having acces to phones connected to the internet; it's hardly a insurmountable feat to bring up a picture showing old GW models are indeed GW models.

If someone were to doubt the GW-ness of my old metal skeleton warriors, a quick google search on "gw metal skeleton warriors stuff of legends" brings up a picture of the relevant citadel catalog page:


And that's on the remote chance that I'd ever be playing in a GW store in the first place and a GW employee feels he has time to go around scouring peoples armies for individual minis that he doesn't recognize.

Yes GW plc have improved slightly.

Rather than a thug that beats you up, steals all your money and then relieves them selves on your prone battered body, before running away with all your money.
They just smile before robbing you , and laugh at you as you let them walk away with all your cash.

See how much better things are now.. .

Herzlos wrote:
If you use models old enough, there's a chance you'll get pulled up for using non-GW models in stores, as the staffer probably won't recognise them. How much effort you wanted to put in from that point is up to you, but the tab that says "GW" will be well hidden by the base.

I own one of these. It's fairly easy to find proof.

They have indisputably improved in the PR department. The sense of active distaste and contempt for their customers was becoming palpable.

They have also improved in entry level expenditures (One of the chief reasons their fantasy line failed under the old regime)

Where they are still lost is the rules writing. Having branched out and played games from other companies the absurd levels of imbalance (and sycophantic defense of it) are unacceptable.

General's Handbook V2 and 8th 40k have a lot riding on them. I am very close to just painting what I own from the enjoyment of the stories I grew up with and maybe occasionally playing them in fan made rulesets.

From an engagement point of view, it's a massive step up.

Painting tutorials
Release teasers
Facebook page
Community site
Awesome new models

The prices still aren't the best, but they are at least trying with the box sets.

Luckily I'm not too into the fluff, so I've managed to avoid any distaste for the changes.

GW is in an awkward place in terms of change thanks to their incremental edition change approach where army books and codecies can stretch back even two or three editions of the game.

Warhammers total collapse afforded them the opportunity to do a reboot. Unfortunately it was done during a period where the head of company seemed to believe that the games don't matter at all and the hobby is all about purchasing the jewel like objects of magic and wonder that are citadel miniatures.

They've done a bit of a course correction with the general's handbook, but they can only do so much in terms of a series of small incremental changes.

People might not want 40k to be blown up and replaced with the Age of the Emperor, but it would allow them to make some serious rules changes. The question is, would they be for the better.

The thing that would get me back in would be a mandate that the rules are there to make the miniatures feel awesome on the table top. This would be a 180 degree shift from the current approach of massive numbers of models removed and buckets of dice needed to resolve attacks that basically make the masses of models feel like pointless wound and attack counters while the big monsters, robots and vehicles get to be the only pieces that feel awesome on the table.

GW has definitely changed for the better since Kirby took a back seat, but the actual game experience isn't there yet, so I'm still out.

Warhammers total collapse afforded them the opportunity to do a reboot. Unfortunately it was done during a period where the head of company seemed to believe that the games don't matter at all and the hobby is all about purchasing the jewel like objects of magic and wonder that are citadel miniatures.

Frankly, given the number of people, some of them pretty hard bitten GW cynics, that have lost their gak over some of the recent 40K releases, and the corresponding upturn in profit and revenue, despite the fact that the game is still in the toilet, I'm beginning to think he had a point.

Well this interview offers a lot of insight into what went wrong with GW over the last few years and why it is in a better place now. https://trackofwords.wordpress.com/2017/02/11/black-library-there-and-back-again-with-laurie-goulding /
It shows how the changes are much more than just the community stuff. It also shows the impact of the new ceo.

That is a crazy good interview, but it doesn't surprise me at all.. That is the cooperate environment now.. Management wants to improve on 100% effort..
I have seen it first hand, with bringing in big money consultants to roll out new management tools like total quality, contentious improvement or what ever is the big buzz word program this week.
But no money to repair the machines or give pay raises to regular employees. Hopefully the new GW CEO will continue the current right path and not revert to what was going on
the past few years..

It really did make me think that Kirby tried to "sink the ship" as his last days where coming up.. Just hope no one gets in trouble for give to much information of the inner workings of GW.

I don't think Kirby was trying to sink the ship, most Human Resource types would recommend everything he was doing as being correct.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Warhammers total collapse afforded them the opportunity to do a reboot. Unfortunately it was done during a period where the head of company seemed to believe that the games don't matter at all and the hobby is all about purchasing the jewel like objects of magic and wonder that are citadel miniatures.

Frankly, given the number of people, some of them pretty hard bitten GW cynics, that have lost their gak over some of the recent 40K releases, and the corresponding upturn in profit and revenue, despite the fact that the game is still in the toilet, I'm beginning to think he had a point.

I actually agree. For the majority of their customers, the rules don't really matter. As long as they can provide the idea of playing the miniatures someday, they're probably good enough for GW's purposes. If you can actually put miniatures on the table, move them around, roll some dice and take some miniatures off the table, then that's probably good enough as well.

Odds are though that for each of the people who want high quality rules there are out there, there's a hundred players who either just want a beer and pretzels pew-pew fest with big armies on the table or who never actually play their game.

As long as the 40k and AoS rules are basically just a marketing tool for the miniatures, I'm out. But I'm sure lots more people are in.

Crazy thing is a tight streamlined rule set benefits everyone not just tournament players.

Bad rules don't even benefit the company putting them out.

hobojebus wrote:
Crazy thing is a tight streamlined rule set benefits everyone not just tournament players.

We have people here who actively argue against that. It makes -no- sense.

My argument is not against it, but that it's tangential to GW's purposes.

Actual design work is time intensive. You've got to come up with the base system, test it and then theoretically test new releases against the existing stuff. Writing whatever and forgetting all that means the studio budget can be spent on packaging design, painting up models for the product shots, making product shots, writing contentless puff pieces about the new releases, and a host of other things that are not a balanced, streamlined and tight set of rules.

Though I will argue against streamlined. I'd rather have a more involved set of rules (though not convoluted) and made each model feel valuable/awesome. Streamlining is often the chosen method to enable model count creep where each model becomes an increasingly irrelevant part of a given army.

 frozenwastes wrote:
My argument is not against it, but that it's tangential to GW's purposes.

Actual design work is time intensive. You've got to come up with the base system, test it and then theoretically test new releases against the existing stuff. Writing whatever and forgetting all that means the studio budget can be spent on packaging design, painting up models for the product shots, making product shots, writing contentless puff pieces about the new releases, and a host of other things that are not a balanced, streamlined and tight set of rules.

Though I will argue against streamlined. I'd rather have a more involved set of rules (though not convoluted) and made each model feel valuable/awesome. Streamlining is often the chosen method to enable model count creep where each model becomes an increasingly irrelevant part of a given army.

For a company that has a large retail chain, all filled with players, playing their games exclusively.... and they can't somehow think of a way of playtesting... ?

Sheesh. GW has the best possible way to playtest. A dedicated sycophantic playerbase that turn up at their exclusive stores to game. Given a chance to playtest, they'd bite peoples nuts off for the chance. GW should have the most playtested bang on perfect games out there. But no, they used all those editions to bring in enough changes to force people to buy new versions and the latest models, rather than actually fix the game and problems. Here's hoping the new 40k version is an improvement.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:


Sheesh. GW has the best possible way to playtest. A dedicated sycophantic playerbase that turn up at their exclusive stores to game. Given a chance to playtest, they'd bite peoples nuts off for the chance. GW should have the most playtested bang on perfect games out there. But no, they used all those editions to bring in enough changes to force people to buy new versions and the latest models, rather than actually fix the game and problems. Here's hoping the new 40k version is an improvement.

Further than that, they've got a massive gaming hall right next to their HQ.

It'd be trivial to keep an eye out for players that are playing the game/forces you want to experiment with, go up to them and talk them through a game with your rules in exchange for lunch/beer/gift vouchers. Customers get to feel special, GW gets super cheap feedback.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:


Sheesh. GW has the best possible way to playtest. A dedicated sycophantic playerbase that turn up at their exclusive stores to game. Given a chance to playtest, they'd bite peoples nuts off for the chance. GW should have the most playtested bang on perfect games out there. But no, they used all those editions to bring in enough changes to force people to buy new versions and the latest models, rather than actually fix the game and problems. Here's hoping the new 40k version is an improvement.

You realize that's exactly what they are doing with AoS? The second edition of the GH is being designed with the community, using guys that have been active in the tournament scene.