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In a theoretical scenario, would the Black Templars be able to invade fenris, specifically the fang?

Obviously, they would probably just bombard the planet from space, but for arguments sake lets say that this is not an option.

I personally think the assault would fail, but my brother disagrees, and we have reached quite the stalemate, so I come for the great people of Dakka to settle the score.

Thank you!
~Mikey

Do we run with BT being codex compliant or vastly overstrength by codex standards?

The Fang is one of the most heavily built fortresses in the Imperium. It is not easy to take by land.

Over-strength I think

I think the idea of them being codex compliant is silly

~Mikey

No way. The fang is an impenetrable fortress that would be defended to the last Space Wolf.

This is almost along the lines of Ultramarines vs Imperial Fists. But, being a Templar myself, I think they could keep a solid blockade around the planet. It just gets tricky when it comes time to make planet fall. In a neutral setting, 50/50. But with the wolves at home...I might have to give it to them.

Did something change in the new marine codex? Are they (The BT) no longer over chapter strength?

Black Templar detonate a Warp Drive in orbit, sucking the entire planet into the Warp. Oh right, they have to land and fight? Not gonna happen. Even if they have superior numbers the Fang is for some bizarre reason the second toughest fortress in the Imperium (why a feral ice planet was so important I do not know). The Black Templar are unlikely to be successful.

Obviously, if a chapter used a weapon meant to destroy a planet, it would be successful.

I simply wanted to prove my brother's outrageous claims wrong

~Mikey

 Lusall wrote:
Did something change in the new marine codex? Are they (The BT) no longer over chapter strength?

As I recall it was in a newer novel that they were reduced in strength.

Exterminatus, and then exterminatus again... easy.

 Lusall wrote:
Did something change in the new marine codex? Are they (The BT) no longer over chapter strength?

They're still over-strength but not to the extremes that the old rumors used to say (which were never confirmed anyway). They're approximately on the same level as the Space Wolves, who as of Curse of the Wulfen, max out at approximately 2,100. We know the exact count of five Great Companies, including the two largest, so it's easy to extrapolate to what their max is.

Nobody invades the Fang for very good reason. First, its not just the Fang. As I understand it, the entire system is fortified and armed. An attacking fleet would have to go through all those obirtal defenses before they even get close enough to lauch an virus bomb or any other form of extermantis.

Then you have to deal with the Fangs weapons itself which can and have fired upon spaceships outside its own orbit. But thats just the guns. Assaulting the Fang is damn near impossible, to start with the Fang itself is the only stable landmass on the planet. Any sort of planetfall and armies moving on the ground have to deal with some of the worst possible dangerious terrain, weather, and local wildlife such as Krakens, Ferensian Wolves, and other things with especially large teeth. Especially if they are not used to dealing with those harsh conditions. Most of the native population of Fenris are nomadic tribes that continually move to survive because there really isn't any place stable enough to make a perminant long lasting settlement.

So, because of this, an attacking army, even a large one, would be a bit like the Persians and Spartians at battle of Thermopylae. There just isn't a place to make a beachhead for a prolonged campaign. The only real chance anyone has would be to send a small army in covertly and try to take the Fang from inside. And lets face it, any small army from any SM chapter, would be easly curb stomped by the home team of any other SM chapter on their own turf inside their own house, full of their own people who know where all the tricks, traps, secret passages, etc. lie.

Again, this is all as I understand it, I can't say I'm too familure with any current fluff that might have changed anything.

I agree that the Templar could't take the fang via storm. They don't have the right temperament, and they no longer have the overwhelming numbers. Other forces (Alpha legion, raven guard, etc) might stand a much better chance covertly.

However, one thing to be considered is that the only time we've seen the fang attacked (by the Thousand Sons) the TS had to try and break the defences before the majority of the space wolves returned. If the space wolves all turtled into the fang (unusual behaviour), then an invading army would just have to take out the major gun batteries and set up choke-points of their own. From there they could besiege the fang in a relatively conventional manner (in a few decades or so all the serfs would starve, or they could mine/melt another entrance in, etc.

Yeah, much as I'm not keen on the Wolves, they have a pretty well held fortress. The harsh climate, the various weapons on the Fang and the fairly equal sizes of the armies involved would solidly put this in favour of the Wolves.

I think an even more fun proposal would be a full Tyranid Hive Fleet versus Fenris.

This is to biased. Since the Wolves are allowed their defenses, but the Black Templars may not use their orbital bombardement? That's not how a planetary assault would work.

I think it should be pointed out that the Wolves are also not compliant in terms of numbers. Their limited recruiting pool and rather harsh induction process keeps them from growing super large, but they aren't restricted to chapter strength. So, while the historic Black Templars are definitely the largest chapter, the Wolves are probably second.

Of course that ignores the successor chapter games played by Dark Angels and others. An amalgam of chapters is going to be larger than a single non-compliant one.

The Space Wolves are one of the strongest SM Chapters in 40k along with the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. Not only are they larger than a codex-size Chapter, they also control multiple worlds, have a large and strong fleet, star forts and armies of mortal servants. The Fang has been established as one of the strongest fortresses in the galaxy.
No single Chapter is strong enough to take that all out. So unless the Black Templars are the size of one of the old Space Marine Legions, they have no chance on their own.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Space Wolves are one of the strongest SM Chapters in 40k along with the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. Not only are they larger than a codex-size Chapter, they also control multiple worlds, have a large and strong fleet, star forts and armies of mortal servants. The Fang has been established as one of the strongest fortresses in the galaxy.
No single Chapter is strong enough to take that all out. So unless the Black Templars are the size of one of the old Space Marine Legions, they have no chance on their own.

Yeah its the Wolves - so all the rules are thrown out of the window - plus their own previous fluff

So whilst it locks down the approximate size of the Chapter - at most a few thousand Marines - it then gives them several hundred (!) warships and several vast Ramilies Class Star Forts - whilst also keeping the whole Inhabitants of Fenris only leave the planet as Marines. The Wolves therefore have a fleet that dwarfs any other Space Marine Chapter

So who exactly is crewing all these warships, void stations and the like. Several million loyal crew, plus Mechanicus support.....but not from Fenris. I guess they could all be void born into the service of the Wolves - maybe?

I don't know if the recent campaign changes any of this or explains anything....

But the Black Templars have zero chance on their own.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Space Wolves are one of the strongest SM Chapters in 40k along with the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. Not only are they larger than a codex-size Chapter, they also control multiple worlds, have a large and strong fleet, star forts and armies of mortal servants. The Fang has been established as one of the strongest fortresses in the galaxy.

Do they control multiple worlds? I thought it was only Fenris? Or do they hold non-recruitment worlds.

Either way I still have no idea why Fenris of all places has such an amazing fortress. Nothing of value other than the Space Wolves who aren't exactly the most inclined to fortifying a location.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Either way I still have no idea why Fenris of all places has such an amazing fortress. Nothing of value other than the Space Wolves who aren't exactly the most inclined to fortifying a location.

Just typical over the top SW crap-fluff. They have to be the SM+1 in all ways.

The Fang is just 1 fortress. I cant see it being more formidable than a world with a ring of iron.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Space Wolves are one of the strongest SM Chapters in 40k along with the Ultramarines and Dark Angels. Not only are they larger than a codex-size Chapter, they also control multiple worlds, have a large and strong fleet, star forts and armies of mortal servants. The Fang has been established as one of the strongest fortresses in the galaxy.

Do they control multiple worlds? I thought it was only Fenris? Or do they hold non-recruitment worlds.

Either way I still have no idea why Fenris of all places has such an amazing fortress. Nothing of value other than the Space Wolves who aren't exactly the most inclined to fortifying a location.

They hold everything in the Fenris system.

Generally speaking the home worlds of Space Marine Legions get protected pretty well. It's hardly special treatment.

Exergy wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Either way I still have no idea why Fenris of all places has such an amazing fortress. Nothing of value other than the Space Wolves who aren't exactly the most inclined to fortifying a location.

Just typical over the top SW crap-fluff. They have to be the SM+1 in all ways.

The Fang is just 1 fortress. I cant see it being more formidable than a world with a ring of iron.

Much as I agree that a lot of SW fluff isn't very good, it IS the fluff.

As a Legion, it's not unbelievable to think that the Fang would be a very strong fortress. Not to mention that it may be one fortress, but it'll be a massive one, with plenty of ground-to-space defences. And the rather large void fleet the Wolves have.

To be fair, once you consider that the Wolves never had to split their resources after the Heresy (or at least, very minorly), their extended size makes a little more sense. After all, if we were going to be truly fair in that situation, what one should do it compare the Wolves to EVERY Dark Angel successor, EVERY Ultramarine successor, EVERY Imperial Fist successor, EVERY Blood Angel successor, etc etc. As a single Chapter, the Wolves are practically unbeatable - but that's because they're more of a Legion than a Chapter.

pm713 wrote:

They hold everything in the Fenris system.

Generally speaking the home worlds of Space Marine Legions get protected pretty well. It's hardly special treatment.

Fair enough.

If I recall correctly the Fang is stated to be the second greatest fortress (after Terra) in the Imperium. And that is special treatment.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

pm713 wrote:

They hold everything in the Fenris system.

Generally speaking the home worlds of Space Marine Legions get protected pretty well. It's hardly special treatment.

Fair enough.

If I recall correctly the Fang is stated to be the second greatest fortress (after Terra) in the Imperium. And that is special treatment.

Makes a degree of sense seeing as it's on a pretty bad planet and not many places are the base of a Marine Legion. Beyond that it's mainly dramatics though.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
To be fair, once you consider that the Wolves never had to split their resources after the Heresy (or at least, very minorly), their extended size makes a little more sense.

This is the main reason the SW are so powerful even if they're only one Chapter. They weren't the largest Legion and by the end of the Heresy they were also pretty beat up - Leman Russ splitting them in two was enough to technically follow the newly introduced Codex Astartes. And they had to put down the successors (Wolf Brothers) due to excessive geneseed mutations so all the surviving SW Legion equipment ended up with the SW Chapter.

There's only ~1500 Space Wolves in the entire Chapter, give or take. We know this because we are given the head-counts of the two largest Great Companies, and from there it is simple mathematics.

They're larger than a standard Chapter, yes, but not by much.

The Wolves would wrecked them, if the BT's were to invade Fenris. It's a hellish world, which the Vlka Fenryka know very well, and it's their turf.

In the void war, I'd say that the Templars would have the upper hand, being specialised in that kind of warfare, and all.

Jefffar wrote:
I think it should be pointed out that the Wolves are also not compliant in terms of numbers. Their limited recruiting pool and rather harsh induction process keeps them from growing super large, but they aren't restricted to chapter strength. So, while the historic Black Templars are definitely the largest chapter, the Wolves are probably second.

Of course that ignores the successor chapter games played by Dark Angels and others. An amalgam of chapters is going to be larger than a single non-compliant one.

Thank you for a totally sterile contribution to the discussion. None of us knew the obvious nor thought of factoring in something that wasn't asked for.

But in all honesty, it would boil down to a SW victory: they have a huge fleet, almost on par to what the Templars may have (as well as land forces) and they are playing on the defense on their own home system. That's a recipe for disaster.
If they decided to invade, Grimaldus would hear knocking on his door, only to open and see napoleon who would slap him hard as he yelled: you dumb melon-fether! Didn't I tell you to not start a land war on NOT!Russia!?

Lord Kragan wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
I think it should be pointed out that the Wolves are also not compliant in terms of numbers. Their limited recruiting pool and rather harsh induction process keeps them from growing super large, but they aren't restricted to chapter strength. So, while the historic Black Templars are definitely the largest chapter, the Wolves are probably second.

Of course that ignores the successor chapter games played by Dark Angels and others. An amalgam of chapters is going to be larger than a single non-compliant one.

Thank you for a totally sterile contribution to the discussion.

Both the Black Templars and the Wolves have now been changed to be much smaller in strength - both about 1500 Marines in their last codex.

This despite the Wolves then being stated to use vast numbers of warships that they are now too small in number to properly utilise even with servitors and thralls.

Wolves never went beyond the 3k soldiers so it's not THAT bad.