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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 19:40:44
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Brutal Black Orc
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SplinteredShield wrote:I feel like a major point is entirely being missed here. Yes you can absolutely run mario into the first Goomba 800,000,000 times but that will not actually accomplish the game nor does it change the rules of it (if Mario hits Goomba, he dies, game over) as opposed to (if Mario dodges Goomba, completes level, progress) both do not result in the same thing and therefore do not alter the gameplay. Back do Gender, the point is not that gender changes the gameplay at all, in fact, it really shouldn't in most circumstances. A girl can leap of faith off a 100 story building (even though it should kill everyone), she can be an elite COG soldier, and a guy can be a stay at home father caught up in the zombie apocalypse. The point is that whether you know it or not, as a male, we've been identifying with the male heroes of those games since we were children and putting ourselves into those roles. As such, and as the over-represented group, we cannot discuss what is "appropriate" or "balanced" representation because well, we already are. It is the job of any corporation to create an equal opportunity for all who identify with all non-gameplay changing aspects and allow us to choose for ourselves. If you don't identify with Mario or Marcus or Assman23 the Skyrim character, that's fine, but others do, and it's not our job to decide. So going back on point, it's not GW's job to exclude a group thinking they know best who identifies, it is their job to be inclusive and allow people to decide for themselves. If there's just one guy or girl out there looking to build a badass female guard regiment than they should. One person who couldn't wait to cosplay as a female assassin, be a badass lady commissar, then it's enough. The novel writers understand this, which is why Gaunts Ghosts and other series have actual representation, letting the reader decide for themselves who to identify with. So there, rant over.
"Over-represented group" Would you kindly who's the main gaming market? Who WAS the dominant gaming market? Men weren't over-represented, they were over-dominant in that market and that translated to them getting the centre stage.
Only that no, that's not their job. They make and sell toys THAT'S IT. They are telling a story. THAT'S IT. They are in no way obliged to include and/or pander all or as many as possible groups. If you don't like it don't take it, in no way you're forced to take a product that you don't like.
And in no way does your analogy work out: Dan Abnett is writing a story. That's what he's selling. A female characters (as well as male ones) just happens to be an addition to said products, so to speak. Dan Abnett is not incurring in any cost for writing in an organic way into the story a female. What DOES cost is making a mould, filling it with plastic and hoping it sells well or that that ONE guy buys a bucketload of them. There's something called aversion to risk and by and large GW has been totally adverse to it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 19:46:26
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Spinner wrote:Asterios wrote: Spinner wrote:Asterios wrote: Spinner wrote:Asterios wrote: Spinner wrote: Just Tony wrote:Skyrim lets you design your character from the ground up, allowing opportunity for race, gender, AND after the Mara quest, sexual orientation. Do you know how much of the game is legitimately affected by your gender choice? None.
Right, but not all games are Skyrim, which is almost word for word the point I made a few posts above
and yet you take a game about a male character and there is game similar to it with a female character or an alien or what have you, the only difference is the story.
That is exactly what I said, yes. Do you not view the story as important?
in a game? no because you are not limited to the story, you can alter it and change it.
Then we're coming at this from fundamentally different directions. From my point of view, story always matters.
And, again, that statement depends on the game, and how you mean 'alter'. Are you talking about different choices and story paths? There's still a set story that the developers are telling, you're just choosing which one.
in a game you can do almost what you want as long as it falls within the parameters of the game, if you want Batman to beat up good guys and ignore the bad guys and die doing it and presto change-o its a new story a new version
...no, you can't. The Arkham games don't let you punch Commissioner Gordon in the face.
Again, not every game is Skyrim.
but does the game make you attack the bad guys? or can you just ignore them and die and become Suicide man.
You can, but you're not really creating a story at that point, you're doing something dumb for a quick laugh. You're playing with the game, not playing the game.
but its how that person wants to play the game, there are videos abounding where players altered the games story, even in Arkham where Batman does not rescue the good guys nor goes killing the bad guys just goes thru the areas looking.
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Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 20:38:31
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
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You're only looking backwards a certain length though and that's the inherent problem. Gaming was dominated by men because games were marketed to boys and made unavailable to females because young gaming companies assumed that games were too manly for girly girls to enjoy. In the last 20 years things have changed drastically in favor equality in gaming, comics, fantasy cinema, roleplaying games, and yet not the tabletop. Its a massive surprise to hear of a girl playing 40k and the "boys club" mentality plays a huge factor. Those who identify as "video game players" is almost at a 50/50 split and while you're right a company hold no legal responsibility to be inclusive it's nonetheless a poor business decision. The market is there and more than anything it is FLTFG mentality discouraging female participants and if GW was making an effort they would see their audiences grow. The fact stands that their fluff is massively contradictory and has many female characters and yet the tabletop has none.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 21:35:15
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Brutal Black Orc
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SplinteredShield wrote:You're only looking backwards a certain length though and that's the inherent problem. Gaming was dominated by men because games were marketed to boys and made unavailable to females because young gaming companies assumed that games were too manly for girly girls to enjoy. In the last 20 years things have changed drastically in favor equality in gaming, comics, fantasy cinema, roleplaying games, and yet not the tabletop. Its a massive surprise to hear of a girl playing 40k and the "boys club" mentality plays a huge factor. Those who identify as "video game players" is almost at a 50/50 split and while you're right a company hold no legal responsibility to be inclusive it's nonetheless a poor business decision. The market is there and more than anything it is FLTFG mentality discouraging female participants and if GW was making an effort they would see their audiences grow. The fact stands that their fluff is massively contradictory and has many female characters and yet the tabletop has none.
Would you kindly provide me the statistic that it is split 50/50?? In fact, give me the statistic that table top gaming is split 50/50 more or less. I've played a lot of games and the majority are males wether we are talking of Infity, Malifaux or 40k/warhammer/skubmar. Also, marketed at boys? It was marketed at adults, without any other appelative, originally, didn't stop it being a male dominated market. You know why? Because gaming then required a set of knowledge involved with computers and at that time those career paths were male dominated (and still are, but the tech has spread).
The main issue is people who think they are gurus of the economy: it's a poor business decision! No it's not, it's called having a fixed demographic and a definite identity: secure a market and keep it as yours, keep a set song and have people be attached to it and don't go around sacrificing stuff just for pandering potential groups. The moment an IP starts changing and making sacrifices just so you "Include" (and it can totally backfire) they are set in a vicious path that can dilute their orignal image.
And again, boy's club mentality has more to do with "communities" (and I put massive air quotes because wherever I've gone the women didn't get bad treatment) that push back certain demographics. Because it's all the way back to the issue of identifying. This is a bloody fantasy setting, if we went and only wanted to play something we identified as, no one would play anything else other than imperial guard, scions, inqusition or sororitas because the rest would be totally alien to us. And fun note: out of the three girls that play 40k at our LGS, one plays daemons, the other plays ork and ravenwing and the third plays tau and deldar... haemonculus covens. The haemounculous is a female conversion though... Nevertheless, none picked up the "female" factions per se. Nor they care, and I've seen quite a few similar cases across the years. It DOESN'T MATTER.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/02 21:45:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 21:40:58
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Hallowed Canoness
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Backspacehacker wrote:Price, look at deathwatch stuff, they upped stuff by like 5 bucks just for a gakky upgrade Sprue
Meh, price is a completely different topic. I don't think making a sprue with models that have (Victoria-style) male and female bodies would be more expensive than making a sprue with models that have only one type of bodies. Same amount of plastic and all that. It could be a little more expensive on the sculpting side, but really it's more a question of GW executive deciding a price tag based one unrelated considerations.
Backspacehacker wrote:We don't have a faction of pacifist marines that just want to spread love and harmony with hugs and kisses. Why not make them?
I just want to make sure before: is it purely rhetorical, or do you want me to answer it?
Backspacehacker wrote:There is very good reason, it's been argued how the male body is predisposed to be a fighter, they bodies are designed to handle it.
What you are giving here is an in-universe justification, rather than the out-of-universe reason I was asking for.
Beside, female Imperial Assassins, with their female bodies, are already capable of tearing a new one to most if not all space marines, both in the lore and on the tabletop, so…
Backspacehacker wrote:Also to add, the suggestion of female space marines, while not a good one, is a legitamite idea, but the proof of burden rests on the person presenting the idea.
The very notion of “burden of proof” is asinine. The “burden of proof” doesn't exist. No-one has a burden to prove anything to anyone else. But if you want the convince people, you'd rather work for it yourself. Doesn't necessarily necessitate to prove anything though, most people are convinced by convincing arguments rather than formal proofs…
Backspacehacker wrote:You need to prove to the community that female space marines are a logical and reasonable decision to put into the game officially.
Well, no. I just need to prove it to GW  . I may look facetious, but I am completely serious. If you want to change any IP, you don't need to convince the current fans of the IP. You don't need their approval, you don't owe them anything. Only the IP owners have the right to decide what they want to do about the IP. The fandom can complain all they want, that's all fair and perfectly understandable, but when they start pretending that not taking their preferences in consideration was morally reprehensible, that's when they become entitled little crybullies. (And I am in no way talking about you, just general musings of mine about something I have seen happen often in video games and comics and stuff).
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 21:47:23
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Brutal Black Orc
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And what they'd earn with "female space marines"? I keep hearing this but nobody has EVER mentioned what they truly gain with that change to such an old piece of the lore. A company doesn't change stuff unless they see a clear potential for profit and, considering they have sororitas, they don't really see it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 21:51:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 21:51:09
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Backspacehacker wrote:You need to prove to the community that female space marines are a logical and reasonable decision to put into the game officially.
Well, no. I just need to prove it to GW  . I may look facetious, but I am completely serious. If you want to change any IP, you don't need to convince the current fans of the IP. You don't need their approval, you don't owe them anything. Only the IP owners have the right to decide what they want to do about the IP. The fandom can complain all they want, that's all fair and perfectly understandable, but when they start pretending that not taking their preferences in consideration was morally reprehensible, that's when they become entitled little crybullies. (And I am in no way talking about you, just general musings of mine about something I have seen happen often in video games and comics and stuff).
If one was to create Female Space Marines (thus changing the IP), why should Sisters of Battle not receive the same treatment and become polygender too? After all, if GW decided to make male SoB, anyone who complained would be "entitled little crybabies", seeing as GW own the IP for Sisters.
Personally, I think both Sisters and Space Marines should be monogender. But they should be the only ones that are. In any other case, there should be no excuse. But hey, I don't own the IP, so my words are meaningless. Automatically Appended Next Post: Lord Kragan wrote:And what they'd earn with "female space marines"? I keep hearing this but nobody has EVER mentioned what they truly gain with that change to such an old piece of the lore.
Well, representation of females a genetically engineered demigods of war, which is a pretty decent earning. However, seeing as lore opposes it, I do not think they should exist from an in-universe standpoint. Of course, that same logic applies to make SoB monogender too.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 21:52:51
They/them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 21:54:40
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Brutal Black Orc
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Backspacehacker wrote:You need to prove to the community that female space marines are a logical and reasonable decision to put into the game officially.
Well, no. I just need to prove it to GW  . I may look facetious, but I am completely serious. If you want to change any IP, you don't need to convince the current fans of the IP. You don't need their approval, you don't owe them anything. Only the IP owners have the right to decide what they want to do about the IP. The fandom can complain all they want, that's all fair and perfectly understandable, but when they start pretending that not taking their preferences in consideration was morally reprehensible, that's when they become entitled little crybullies. (And I am in no way talking about you, just general musings of mine about something I have seen happen often in video games and comics and stuff).
If one was to create Female Space Marines (thus changing the IP), why should Sisters of Battle not receive the same treatment and become polygender too? After all, if GW decided to make male SoB, anyone who complained would be "entitled little crybabies", seeing as GW own the IP for Sisters.
Personally, I think both Sisters and Space Marines should be monogender. But they should be the only ones that are. In any other case, there should be no excuse. But hey, I don't own the IP, so my words are meaningless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord Kragan wrote:And what they'd earn with "female space marines"? I keep hearing this but nobody has EVER mentioned what they truly gain with that change to such an old piece of the lore.
Well, representation of females a genetically engineered demigods of war, which is a pretty decent earning. However, seeing as lore opposes it, I do not think they should exist from an in-universe standpoint. Of course, that same logic applies to make SoB monogender too.
Now you've said it: they don't get gak. They gain "representation" which can perfectly translate in the same number of sales as monogender. Number one reason we won't see female SMs.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 22:50:42
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/52-percent-people-playing-games-women-industry-doesnt-know?client=ms-android-verizon
For that matter not to be argumentative, but I said the tabletop is where that split is nowhere near 50/50 and thats a problem. Here's how I see it and while I agree I'm not a tabletop business guru I do in fact run my own company and I have a hard time seeing a downside. By adding a female range and supporting the already existing female models in the fluff they open their customer base. Who exactly do they stand to lose off of this idea? You can't really say anymore that they would take a massive hit financially because with GSC theyve shown willingness to design a totally new mini line from the ground up. The fact is my wife plays video games with me, she watches LCS, she's played DnD but she's never wanted to try 40k or anything involved because she can't connect to the game. Which is just too bad and something I think a lot of us would love to share with our significant others. I think I have a hard time understanding these threads that start out as "how do women operate in 40k" and the fluff, endorsed by GW supports a completely different reality than their main IP. Hell their newest mobile IP has a female imperial knight, yet the model range has none of that whatsoever. I don't see why people are so against connecting the inspiration someone finds in the fluff to the game they love to play without massive conversion from 3rd party sources.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 23:01:40
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Brutal Black Orc
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SplinteredShield wrote:https://www.google.com/ amp/s/ amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/52-percent-people-playing-games-women-industry-doesnt-know?client=ms-android-verizon
For that matter not to be argumentative, but I said the tabletop is where that split is nowhere near 50/50 and thats a problem. Here's how I see it and while I agree I'm not a tabletop business guru I do in fact run my own company and I have a hard time seeing a downside. By adding a female range and supporting the already existing female models in the fluff they open their customer base. Who exactly do they stand to lose off of this idea? You can't really say anymore that they would take a massive hit financially because with GSC theyve shown willingness to design a totally new mini line from the ground up. The fact is my wife plays video games with me, she watches LCS, she's played DnD but she's never wanted to try 40k or anything involved because she can't connect to the game. Which is just too bad and something I think a lot of us would love to share with our significant others. I think I have a hard time understanding these threads that start out as "how do women operate in 40k" and the fluff, endorsed by GW supports a completely different reality than their main IP. Hell their newest mobile IP has a female imperial knight, yet the model range has none of that whatsoever. I don't see why people are so against connecting the inspiration someone finds in the fluff to the game they love to play without massive conversion from 3rd party sources.
Again, you provide wrong examples: genestealer cults are a hit because they are a new army: it brings new (and very interesting) toys to the table. What you're suggesting is yet a nother re-skin of a concept one that wouldn't have anything to offer unlike the deathwatch. There's a reason there's only cadians/catachans in the IG range now. And again, your arguments have no support whatsoever: do females need "boobs" to be a attracted by something? My experience generally tells me not, they aren't necessary. Generally speaking that kind of people get out of the hobby in less than a year because the novelty wears out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 23:08:31
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
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They dont need boobs, but they dont want to be in a world set backwards from their own either. Women are soldiers on earth right now, but after 38,000 years we've realised that women are just breeding stock so...here's some guys to shoot....Imperial Guard have one of the most outdated ranges in the entire set. The new Neophyte box is essentially a reskin of guard, basically an upgrade sprue really, and adds an immense amount of life and depth to a unit that for IG, is bland and boring. Which also gives you almost a dozen extra heads just to add variety to your squad! If they revamped the cadian unit, just added 20 new heads, new poses, and 3 of them were female with no body change whatsoever, then added a female commissar clampack and a female head for a company command squad itd be done. And Im not on the bandwagon of changing fluff just for inclusion either. Space Marines can stay all male because it makes sense in the universe, Sisters are amazing and unique and all it would take is inclusion in a new video game, some promotion, and an updated model line and youd see tons of new players interested in picking them up too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 23:25:43
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Hallowed Canoness
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Sgt_Smudge wrote:If one was to create Female Space Marines (thus changing the IP), why should Sisters of Battle not receive the same treatment and become polygender too?
Because literally no-one is asking for it? But yeah, if it happened I definitely wouldn't cry over it, despite what you seem to assume for no particular reason…
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 23:36:12
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Sgt_Smudge wrote:If one was to create Female Space Marines (thus changing the IP), why should Sisters of Battle not receive the same treatment and become polygender too?
Because literally no-one is asking for it? But yeah, if it happened I definitely wouldn't cry over it, despite what you seem to assume for no particular reason…
I'm not assuming anything, merely just consolidating your logic.
However, you are incorrect in that no-one is asking for male SoBs. If one of them were made polygender, I would expect the only other monogender faction in the game to follow suite. If Female Space Marines became a thing, I would expect Male SoB to become one as well.
And there are certainly people out there who do ask for Male SoB. Do I agree with them? Not at all. Leave SoB female, leave SM male. Promote the sisters' line via new kits and hardback codex, and add female representation in armies that need it (Guard, Scions, Cultists, Eldar, Tau, Inquisition).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 23:37:18
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Because literally no-one is asking for it? But yeah, if it happened I definitely wouldn't cry over it, despite what you seem to assume for no particular reason…
That would kinda take the "Sisters" out of "Sisters of Battle" though wouldn't it?
I think the point Smudge is making is that doing something like that messes with the identity of the faction. Usually I'd say that gender is unimportant when it comes to 40k factions, but both Space Marines and SoB are the exceptions; messing with them in that way is both not needed and will also create way more holes in their background than holes that can be patched up, since it's always been a known thing for most 40k enthusiasts that Space Marines = all male, Sisters of Battle = all female (obviously not including the Priests in SoB and the advisers and backstage crews in Space Marine Chapters who are the opposite gender)
G.A
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G.A - Should've called myself Ghost Ark
Makeup Whiskers? This is War Paint! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 23:39:16
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Brutal Black Orc
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SplinteredShield wrote:They dont need boobs, but they dont want to be in a world set backwards from their own either. Women are soldiers on earth right now, but after 38,000 years we've realised that women are just breeding stock so...here's some guys to shoot....Imperial Guard have one of the most outdated ranges in the entire set. The new Neophyte box is essentially a reskin of guard, basically an upgrade sprue really, and adds an immense amount of life and depth to a unit that for IG, is bland and boring. Which also gives you almost a dozen extra heads just to add variety to your squad! If they revamped the cadian unit, just added 20 new heads, new poses, and 3 of them were female with no body change whatsoever, then added a female commissar clampack and a female head for a company command squad itd be done. And Im not on the bandwagon of changing fluff just for inclusion either. Space Marines can stay all male because it makes sense in the universe, Sisters are amazing and unique and all it would take is inclusion in a new video game, some promotion, and an updated model line and youd see tons of new players interested in picking them up too.
Only that that neophyte box is an excuse to tell people: hey guys! you can use your guard models too wink wink! And it's back to the original point: it won't sell you more stuff. The neophyte box is also a repack as it includes HW squads which the standard box lacks, and once you do the math you find out that you are getting that upgrade sprue for free as the squad is 35 eur while a hwt would be 11 and a regular cadian squad is 24. It is a deal to boot. The point still stands regardless of wether or not you move the goalpost: is it necessary to have a "lot" (so to speak) of female models to attract females? Judging by the looks of it, no. The issue is how time consuming this game is, which turns off many people.
Honestly this is a sterile field already of discussion but I digress.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 00:01:29
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Drop Trooper with Demo Charge
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While I agree, no amount of discussion on either of our parts will convince GW to do one or the other, they could add a female line or a whole female warrior mad max style renegade army and either could pass or fail to meet numbers or new audiences. I have to disagree that revamped models dont sell. I do believe in the appeal of "here's the new version of the thing you have!" Mentality. Its why the i-phone or COD have been so successful. I think GW has been afraid to refresh and redesign in the last decade hoping that printing books will make more money than redesigning models. I only hope that the trend continues and GW does take more risk in the content they release and the improvement of the deals you get. Maybe that will mean more female models and maybe not. We do thankfully have amazing conversion kits elsewhere and if GW doesn't want a piece of that that's entirely their decision. Id just say this, the world of 40k is vast and an amazing fantasy setting, so there's room for plenty of us to be right about things and just enjoy the world we get to play in.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 00:45:52
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Hallowed Canoness
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You are not consolidating any specific logic. You just think you found a “gotcha”. But you didn't. I am of course going to ask you to name one. Meh. I could care less, but barely. General Annoyance wrote:Usually I'd say that gender is unimportant when it comes to 40k factions, but both Space Marines and SoB are the exceptions;
Sisters maybe as being all-female kind of sets them apart in a universe that is mostly male and more so because the whole Decree Passive thing is a perfect and very evocative illustration of the byzantine ways of the Imperium where what matters is saving face and following the word of the law rather than the spirit of it is usual business. Marines? Hardly… It never set Marines apart in a universe where male are hardly rare. Being all-male never featured heavily in their identity, which I think is worth repeating : they are space renaissance vampire paranoid monk mongol viking furries roman legions of blacksmith crusaders of depressed doom cyborg parading as ghost rider impersonators. Of course I am only talking about the loyalist, because everyone knows that marines can also be space punisher batman hair metal drug addicts … I mean, with such a very broad identity as “space renaissance vampire paranoid monk mongol viking furries roman legions of blacksmith crusaders of depressed doom cyborg parading as ghost rider impersonators”, I really don't think adding mixed-gendered to the mix is taking it a step too far, and neither do I think it is diluting this very very specific concept that is a space marine.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/11/03 00:59:05
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 01:49:46
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Keeper of the Flame
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You missed the chance to call them "Space Borings", so many SOB players will be upset.
Yeah, there's pretty much no argument you can bring to the table that is valid for your point except "Nobody should have monogender anything except women", which is pretty much a sexist attitude without being mysogynist. I think Marines and SOB are fine the way they are. Chaos does give a chance for something, though. Daemonic posession could easily increase a female's capacity for Power Armor, and have damn near the same effect as the Marine process.
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www.classichammer.com
For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming
Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 05:18:06
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman
Australia
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110% Derailment. This is why we can't have nice things.
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30k:
Solar Auxilia: 3,500+
Space Wolves: 1,000+
40k:
Vostroyans: 2,000+
Deathwatch: Points Unknown. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 07:04:24
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Brutal Black Orc
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SplinteredShield wrote:https://www.google.com/ amp/s/ amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/52-percent-people-playing-games-women-industry-doesnt-know?client=ms-android-verizon
Okay, one thing: never lie again, because you've just lied about this now and,conflated two different things as the article did. It's not 50+% gamer women because what they mainly play is mobile game, puzzle games at that. I'm sorry but no, playing 5 minutes of candy crush in the train while on the way to work is nowhere the dedication associated to a gamer or the needed to play 40k. To fruther drive home this, the study further signals that half of women don't play any other source (haven't played it in more than 6 months which is quite a while). There's no true dedication in it. Taking away this and you get that female gamers are somewhere around 20%. Respectable but the point still stands that the "proper" (read: needs more dedication) game market is dominated by males.
Even more, the study states that these games are popular in women due to the simplicity and non-necessity to learn. In other words: it's not bein a gamer, it's being bored and using a video-game. The study's data goes even further and showing that genres like strategy have a worse, much worse. Why? Because it requires more effort and they say: feth it, ain't got time for this gak! Do you really thing then, seeing this profile as a rule, do you think this demographic will go and spend HOURS assembling painting, buying the material (which is, again, one of the other reasons the mobile games dominate: they are FtP most of the time) worth in the hundreds of dollars, learning the basics of a gargantuan setting... and then spending HOURS playing? NO, ain't happening, the same study gives us the clues as to why.
Furthermore this study sins of being "too easy" to pass: once in six months? That doesn't make you a gamer of consoles/computer/online! Furthermore they add flash games which are inherent of facebook which makes me raise an eyebrow considering the origins of part of this "online games".
READ THINGS PROPERLY NEXT TIME.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/03 09:14:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 11:25:52
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Been Around the Block
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Lord Kragan wrote: "Over-represented group" Would you kindly who's the main gaming market? Who WAS the dominant gaming market? Men weren't over-represented, they were over-dominant in that market and that translated to them getting the centre stage.
Only that no, that's not their job. They make and sell toys THAT'S IT. They are telling a story. THAT'S IT. They are in no way obliged to include and/or pander all or as many as possible groups. If you don't like it don't take it, in no way you're forced to take a product that you don't like.
And in no way does your analogy work out: Dan Abnett is writing a story. That's what he's selling. A female characters (as well as male ones) just happens to be an addition to said products, so to speak. Dan Abnett is not incurring in any cost for writing in an organic way into the story a female. What DOES cost is making a mould, filling it with plastic and hoping it sells well or that that ONE guy buys a bucketload of them. There's something called aversion to risk and by and large GW has been totally adverse to it.
Well they are dominant because back then video games and miniature wargaming was percieved by society as not something girls or women should be into wich meant that no women bought them wich created the skewed market. You see this all the time with many different products, an easy example being make up, what in make up states that this is an only women thing? Traditional gender roles passed through generations.
but when times change so do opinion and there are many today who think that companies hold a greater responsibility toward the rest of society, they cant get away with just selling a products because they maintain the ideals and biases of the rest of society. This means that to some degree they are responsible to atleast try to get representation into their game.
Female space marines, more female models and marketing both to women and men would create pr that could get more people interested because now they can show that they care about all people and arent just a boys club, or that they are atleast trying.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 12:05:02
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Brutal Black Orc
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Boneville wrote:Lord Kragan wrote: "Over-represented group" Would you kindly who's the main gaming market? Who WAS the dominant gaming market? Men weren't over-represented, they were over-dominant in that market and that translated to them getting the centre stage.
Only that no, that's not their job. They make and sell toys THAT'S IT. They are telling a story. THAT'S IT. They are in no way obliged to include and/or pander all or as many as possible groups. If you don't like it don't take it, in no way you're forced to take a product that you don't like.
And in no way does your analogy work out: Dan Abnett is writing a story. That's what he's selling. A female characters (as well as male ones) just happens to be an addition to said products, so to speak. Dan Abnett is not incurring in any cost for writing in an organic way into the story a female. What DOES cost is making a mould, filling it with plastic and hoping it sells well or that that ONE guy buys a bucketload of them. There's something called aversion to risk and by and large GW has been totally adverse to it.
Well they are dominant because back then video games and miniature wargaming was percieved by society as not something girls or women should be into wich meant that no women bought them wich created the skewed market. You see this all the time with many different products, an easy example being make up, what in make up states that this is an only women thing? Traditional gender roles passed through generations.
but when times change so do opinion and there are many today who think that companies hold a greater responsibility toward the rest of society, they cant get away with just selling a products because they maintain the ideals and biases of the rest of society. This means that to some degree they are responsible to atleast try to get representation into their game.
Female space marines, more female models and marketing both to women and men would create pr that could get more people interested because now they can show that they care about all people and arent just a boys club, or that they are atleast trying.
Sigh. No it wasn't something that "boys· ought to do. That's playing football/volley/whatever sport is popular in the region. That's what was expected from a guy. Playing with toy soldiers at a moderately advanced age (and honestly good look trying to teach a 4-5 year old kid the rules)? It wasn't a traditional gender role but another beast. Specially old videogames, they required extensive scripting knowledge so rather than "men" it was more of "nerd" and it was a derogatory and you know it.
No they don't hold that kind of responsability. Corporate responsability doesn't mean to pander to every demographic ever been. Corporate responsability consists on doing things for the betterment of society not the egos of people.
GW doesn't do marketing, their policy is: let people talk about us and word will spread. When was the last time you saw a GW ad??
Just because times have changed doesn't mean Don Quixote ought to be afro-american in the re-boot of the story.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/03 12:07:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 12:19:45
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Keeper of the Flame
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Boneville wrote:Lord Kragan wrote: "Over-represented group" Would you kindly who's the main gaming market? Who WAS the dominant gaming market? Men weren't over-represented, they were over-dominant in that market and that translated to them getting the centre stage.
Only that no, that's not their job. They make and sell toys THAT'S IT. They are telling a story. THAT'S IT. They are in no way obliged to include and/or pander all or as many as possible groups. If you don't like it don't take it, in no way you're forced to take a product that you don't like.
And in no way does your analogy work out: Dan Abnett is writing a story. That's what he's selling. A female characters (as well as male ones) just happens to be an addition to said products, so to speak. Dan Abnett is not incurring in any cost for writing in an organic way into the story a female. What DOES cost is making a mould, filling it with plastic and hoping it sells well or that that ONE guy buys a bucketload of them. There's something called aversion to risk and by and large GW has been totally adverse to it.
Well they are dominant because back then video games and miniature wargaming was percieved by society as not something girls or women should be into wich meant that no women bought them wich created the skewed market. You see this all the time with many different products, an easy example being make up, what in make up states that this is an only women thing? Traditional gender roles passed through generations.
but when times change so do opinion and there are many today who think that companies hold a greater responsibility toward the rest of society, they cant get away with just selling a products because they maintain the ideals and biases of the rest of society. This means that to some degree they are responsible to atleast try to get representation into their game.
Female space marines, more female models and marketing both to women and men would create pr that could get more people interested because now they can show that they care about all people and arent just a boys club, or that they are atleast trying.
Do you seriously think we'll get a swathe of new female gamers in 40K simply because of a few female Marine models? We've had 25 years or so of Sisters of Battle models to pull them in, if that's what they wanted. Hell, we had Dawn of War: Soulstorm shine the spotlight on Sisters, so by that logic the Sisters should have sold so well that they would have gotten a new model range before the Tau. Yeah, that didn't happen. I sincerely doubt there is an army of women, people who identify as women, or the obligatory SJWs suffering from testicle guilt who are waiting in the wings boycotting the game until such time as two heads and two boob armor chest plates are added to a SM sprue.
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www.classichammer.com
For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming
Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 12:22:59
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: General Annoyance wrote:Usually I'd say that gender is unimportant when it comes to 40k factions, but both Space Marines and SoB are the exceptions;
Sisters maybe as being all-female kind of sets them apart in a universe that is mostly male and more so because the whole Decree Passive thing is a perfect and very evocative illustration of the byzantine ways of the Imperium where what matters is saving face and following the word of the law rather than the spirit of it is usual business. Marines? Hardly… It never set Marines apart in a universe where male are hardly rare. Being all-male never featured heavily in their identity, which I think is worth repeating : they are space renaissance vampire paranoid monk mongol viking furries roman legions of blacksmith crusaders of depressed doom cyborg parading as ghost rider impersonators. Of course I am only talking about the loyalist, because everyone knows that marines can also be space punisher batman hair metal drug addicts … I mean, with such a very broad identity as “space renaissance vampire paranoid monk mongol viking furries roman legions of blacksmith crusaders of depressed doom cyborg parading as ghost rider impersonators”, I really don't think adding mixed-gendered to the mix is taking it a step too far, and neither do I think it is diluting this very very specific concept that is a space marine. Those are only inspirations for a fairly original idea, though. The Space Marine as a concept may include those inspirations for their design, but in practice they are their own idea, not something that necessarily has to be influenced by what they're inspired from.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/03 12:30:41
G.A - Should've called myself Ghost Ark
Makeup Whiskers? This is War Paint! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 12:28:16
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Mighty Vampire Count
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Just Tony wrote:Boneville wrote:Lord Kragan wrote: "Over-represented group" Would you kindly who's the main gaming market? Who WAS the dominant gaming market? Men weren't over-represented, they were over-dominant in that market and that translated to them getting the centre stage.
Only that no, that's not their job. They make and sell toys THAT'S IT. They are telling a story. THAT'S IT. They are in no way obliged to include and/or pander all or as many as possible groups. If you don't like it don't take it, in no way you're forced to take a product that you don't like.
And in no way does your analogy work out: Dan Abnett is writing a story. That's what he's selling. A female characters (as well as male ones) just happens to be an addition to said products, so to speak. Dan Abnett is not incurring in any cost for writing in an organic way into the story a female. What DOES cost is making a mould, filling it with plastic and hoping it sells well or that that ONE guy buys a bucketload of them. There's something called aversion to risk and by and large GW has been totally adverse to it.
Well they are dominant because back then video games and miniature wargaming was percieved by society as not something girls or women should be into wich meant that no women bought them wich created the skewed market. You see this all the time with many different products, an easy example being make up, what in make up states that this is an only women thing? Traditional gender roles passed through generations.
but when times change so do opinion and there are many today who think that companies hold a greater responsibility toward the rest of society, they cant get away with just selling a products because they maintain the ideals and biases of the rest of society. This means that to some degree they are responsible to atleast try to get representation into their game.
Female space marines, more female models and marketing both to women and men would create pr that could get more people interested because now they can show that they care about all people and arent just a boys club, or that they are atleast trying.
Do you seriously think we'll get a swathe of new female gamers in 40K simply because of a few female Marine models? We've had 25 years or so of Sisters of Battle models to pull them in, if that's what they wanted. Hell, we had Dawn of War: Soulstorm shine the spotlight on Sisters, so by that logic the Sisters should have sold so well that they would have gotten a new model range before the Tau. Yeah, that didn't happen. I sincerely doubt there is an army of women, people who identify as women, or the obligatory SJWs suffering from testicle guilt who are waiting in the wings boycotting the game until such time as two heads and two boob armor chest plates are added to a SM sprue.
Oh dear - what total nonsense post.
We have had 25 years focus on the Space Marines with occasional grudging mention of the SOB and women in general on the tabletop (in direct contrast to the fluff).
Weirdly enough if you focus all your sale potential and support almost entirely on one line then they sell the best, and oh look that's were we are with Space Marines.
Dark Eldar did not sell well until - guess what they had a massive push and loads of new models.
Once again to drive the point home to you - why are all these other game companies having plenty of women in their ranges if gamers are going to scream and run from the room when they arrive.
Sheesh.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/03 13:03:27
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 12:30:33
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine
Texas
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
You are not consolidating any specific logic. You just think you found a “gotcha”. But you didn't.
I am of course going to ask you to name one.
Meh. I could care less, but barely.
General Annoyance wrote:Usually I'd say that gender is unimportant when it comes to 40k factions, but both Space Marines and SoB are the exceptions;
Sisters maybe as being all-female kind of sets them apart in a universe that is mostly male and more so because the whole Decree Passive thing is a perfect and very evocative illustration of the byzantine ways of the Imperium where what matters is saving face and following the word of the law rather than the spirit of it is usual business. Marines? Hardly…
It never set Marines apart in a universe where male are hardly rare. Being all-male never featured heavily in their identity, which I think is worth repeating : they are space renaissance vampire paranoid monk mongol viking furries roman legions of blacksmith crusaders of depressed doom cyborg parading as ghost rider impersonators. Of course I am only talking about the loyalist, because everyone knows that marines can also be space punisher batman hair metal drug addicts …
I mean, with such a very broad identity as “space renaissance vampire paranoid monk mongol viking furries roman legions of blacksmith crusaders of depressed doom cyborg parading as ghost rider impersonators”, I really don't think adding mixed-gendered to the mix is taking it a step too far, and neither do I think it is diluting this very very specific concept that is a space marine.
"I don't think..."
Most people would "think" to disagree. Sisters of Battle were created for those that wanted a female version of the Space Marine. Your reason behind why it would be okay for their to never be male "Sisters of Battle" could pretty easily be applied in the opposite as to why Space Marines can only be male. To say nothing of all the reasons given in this thread in regards to genetics.
In the end...this has got to be the silliest argument. Space Marines=all male. Sisters of Battle=all female. When it comes to the fluff proper. But hey, if you want female brony space marines with wonder twin powers activated, knock yourself out. It's your 40K.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/03 12:33:08
(Successor Chapter) 2000 pts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 13:02:15
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Why are you assuming that? I've nothing to gain from that, I'm just reaffirming the argument you made. In no way did I try to find a "gotcha", as you put it.
I am of course going to ask you to name one.
Hybrid Son of Oxayatl wrote:
The very notion of “burden of proof” is asinine. The “burden of proof” doesn't exist. No-one has a burden to prove anything to anyone else. But if you want the convince people, you'd rather work for it yourself. Doesn't necessarily necessitate to prove anything though, most people are convinced by convincing arguments rather than formal proofs… Sounds familiar? Still, I can name them, but as friends who have no account on Dakka, I'm afraid I can't give any more proof than just names.
General Annoyance wrote:Usually I'd say that gender is unimportant when it comes to 40k factions, but both Space Marines and SoB are the exceptions;
Sisters maybe as being all-female kind of sets them apart in a universe that is mostly male and more so because the whole Decree Passive thing is a perfect and very evocative illustration of the byzantine ways of the Imperium where what matters is saving face and following the word of the law rather than the spirit of it is usual business. Marines? Hardly…
It never set Marines apart in a universe where male are hardly rare. Being all-male never featured heavily in their identity, which I think is worth repeating : they are space renaissance vampire paranoid monk mongol viking furries roman legions of blacksmith crusaders of depressed doom cyborg parading as ghost rider impersonators. Of course I am only talking about the loyalist, because everyone knows that marines can also be space punisher batman hair metal drug addicts …
I mean, with such a very broad identity as “space renaissance vampire paranoid monk mongol viking furries roman legions of blacksmith crusaders of depressed doom cyborg parading as ghost rider impersonators”, I really don't think adding mixed-gendered to the mix is taking it a step too far, and neither do I think it is diluting this very very specific concept that is a space marine.
But unlike other mixed gender factions, there are a myriad of reasons as to why the Space Marines are male - which I believe I mentioned in the Female Space Marine thread - which also reflect the dogmatic and byzantine nature of the Imperium.
As for the Sisters, the Decree Passive is the only thing stopping them being male. Cut the Decree, and then men can join.
So, why should the Decree be held sancrosanct and cannot be changed, but the various reasons as to why a Space Marine is male should be?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/03 13:04:07
They/them
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 15:04:33
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Been Around the Block
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Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But unlike other mixed gender factions, there are a myriad of reasons as to why the Space Marines are male - which I believe I mentioned in the Female Space Marine thread - which also reflect the dogmatic and byzantine nature of the Imperium.
As for the Sisters, the Decree Passive is the only thing stopping them being male. Cut the Decree, and then men can join.
So, why should the Decree be held sancrosanct and cannot be changed, but the various reasons as to why a Space Marine is male should be?
The problem with this is that all the reasons are stated are in universe explanations. These can be entirely rewritten, just like other things has been rewritten.
For example the whole necron background were rewritten and the ctan shattered into pieces.
The same goes for the decree. you can rewrite it to be a matter of interpretation where one part of the ecchlesiarchy takes it literally thus employing the sisters, but one group interpretates it as no standing army but the preachers and missionarier should have the means to "defend" themselves, thus leading to enough arms to be coonsidered a standing army in everything but name, with the important bit of explicitly being for "self defense". Then you have an opening for a schism in the ecchlisiarchy as a whole.
the same goes for space marines. My point being you can make these things without losing the identity of the already existing chapters/factions if you want. Just because female space marines are added, that doesnt mean all the already existing chapters becomes genderswapped.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 15:58:56
Subject: Women In The Imperium
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Keeper of the Flame
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So we see this is going to be a civil discussion, and sides aren't already drawn.
Mr Morden wrote:We have had 25 years focus on the Space Marines with occasional grudging mention of the SOB and women in general on the tabletop (in direct contrast to the fluff).
We have 25 years of 40K, with Marines being the more popular of the forces as early as Rogue Trader. Do you think a company would push one quarter of their product at the risk of losing on the other three quarters? Not so much. Now, if something IS selling well, do you focus on that portion of the franchise? You'd be a fool not to. I'm thinking your cause/effect order is reversed.
Mr Morden wrote:Weirdly enough if you focus all your sale potential and support almost entirely on one line then they sell the best, and oh look that's were we are with Space Marines.
Once again, it's asinine to think a company would actively push a fraction of their product, which nowadays there are a dozen (maybe?) factions with 3 of them being Marines or Chaos. ESPECIALLY with development costs for new plastic kits.
Mr Morden wrote:Dark Eldar did not sell well until - guess what they had a massive push and loads of new models.
Dark Eldar didn't sell well until the pewter models and the more ugly sculpts got replaced OR the fact that their codex was actually playable compared to their previous one. Period. If they make a codex that works well in the game, and the models don't look like absolute grave rot, then it will sell.
Mr Morden wrote:Once again to drive the point home to you - why are all these other game companies having plenty of women in their ranges if gamers are going to scream and run from the room when they arrive.
Sheesh.
You're right, and that mass of sales is probably overshadowing GW's sales as we speak. Oh, wait...
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www.classichammer.com
For 4-6th WFB, 2-5th 40k, and similar timeframe gaming
Looking for dice from the new AOS boxed set and Dark Imperium on the cheap. Let me know if you can help.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 16:03:04
Subject: Re:Women In The Imperium
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Mighty Vampire Count
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I wasn't the one whining about SJWs etc I quote
the obligatory SJWs suffering from testicle guilt
yeah Mr Civil
Yeah Warmachine is suffering hard because it makes female figures - try harder.
re-read you posts and absorb the inherent contradictions - GW focus on one range and its sells well.
GW don't on Dark Eldar and then suddenly they do with new models and rules and hey guess what - it sells well.
Consider the implications for selling female models from your own words.
Once again, it's asinine to think a company would actively push a fraction of their product, which nowadays there are a dozen (maybe?) factions with 3 of them being Marines
Sigh - at least try and get your facts right
Specific Marine factions - Space Marines (with subfactions), Deathwatch, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves. Then you have Horus Heresy era Marines
How much of this is their current range?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/11/03 16:33:36
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page
A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction |
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