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2016/11/02 15:06:31
Subject: Re:If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
I'd love to see non-skimmer/non-SH vehicles actually become viable again outside armies that get theirs for free.
Ordnance platforms too, theyre pretty awful right now.
Basic infantry are another one that needs assistance in many ways, though scale is as much of an issue there as anything else.
Here's hoping 8E is a major reboot of the game engine.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/11/02 15:20:58
Subject: If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
TheAvengingKnee wrote: <snip>remove stupid ones like destroy a fortification and cast a psychic power. <snip>
Or just an official wording in the missions, something along the lines of "If you cannot secure an objective because it's impossible within the current game (i.e. Your opponent does not have any foritifications in his list that can be destroyed) then discard that objective and redraw a new one until a valid one is chosen."
Maybe even extend it to say "If at any earlier point in the game it would have been possible to achieve the objective, but it can no longer be fulfilled (because your opponent's only flyer was eliminated on turn 2, but you drew the "Eliminate an enemy flyer" objective turn 3, then you cannot discard that objective."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 15:21:16
2016/11/02 15:21:35
Subject: Re:If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
- Anything in power armor or intended to be an assault unit in the Chaos codex needs buffing or point dropping.
- The Heavy Bolter needs a fundamental change to give it a place in a game where superior options exist every where
Assault in general needs a buff. Bring back being able to assault after disembarking from a vehicle that hasn't moved yet. Also bring back being able to assault out of walk-on reserves, Outflank, and after Scout moves and infiltration. Doing these things would buff Chaos Marines without touching their rules or altering their points. Not saying those aren't needed too, just saying assault in general needs to be a more viable option.
Heavy bolters can be decent weapons if the platform for them can take enough of them for a reasonable price. My heavy bolter Sicarian, for instance, is a fine tank that puts out a ton of dakka. One thing could be done is making heavy bolters both a heavy weapon option and a special weapon option for squads that have those kinds of upgrade slots. If you could take two HBs in a Tac Squad, for instance, that might be a worthwhile option. Giving infantry heavy weapons more ability to shoot on the move would also be helpful - maybe make the HB Salvo 3/3. I'd also like the multimelta to be Salvo 1/1.
Baldeagle91 wrote: However one of the main issues facing vehicles is how CC affects them, hit's to rear armour should not be automatic and everyone has thought this for a long time now.
I don't In fact, I'm vehemently against removing hitting back armor in CC, for a reason you yourself stated: Massed fire needs to be capable of destroying lighter vehicles. Since normal units can only ever get a better melee weapon on the sarge and a power fists costs more than two meltaguns, being able to deal with vehicles with basic attacks has to happen. Otherwise, you need vehicles to be able to be locked in combat or not have assault units be forced to make the shortest distance when assaulting, or assault armies will end up needing dedicated elite assault units to deal with anything tougher than a rhino.
Snake Tortoise wrote: The basic infantry for every faction. I want to see and use armies where the bulk of models are your most basic troop unit; chaos marines, space marines, guard platoons, termagants, ork boyz, eldar guardians etc. I can think of a couple of simple ways to achieve this. Either make core infantry choices disproportionately cheap (10 point tac marines, possibly even cheaper than that), or have a few pure troop formations for every faction, like four units of (insert unit) with really good buffs that aren't even attempting to balance themselves against other formations. I want really strong incentives to field troops, not just ObSec.
I'd also like to see gargantuans/superheavies paying a premium to be fielded. Go the other way with these units and make them prohibitively expensive for competitive games but still kind of okay for casual environments. They'll still sell, and probably cause carnage in a troop heavy meta, but you just won't win the mission against a halfway savvy opponent who can field five fully upgraded tac squads for the price of your knight.
I pretty much agree with you except that I would say avengers rather than guardians for the Eldar. I would say guardians are more akin to the weak troops most armies can field: scouts, cultists, conscripts, etc (they actually are conscripted eldar).
Ulthwe: 7500 points
2016/11/02 15:37:41
Subject: If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
Yeah, the IG internal balance is as bad as its external balance unfortunately. :(
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2016/11/02 15:42:47
Subject: If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
Baldeagle91 wrote: Guard have great internal balance but have extreme external balance issues,
LOL.
Yeah, no. They have awful internal balance, awful external balance, and in general are just a hot mess of WTFery.
I Think IG I think Big Fething tanks and hordes of cheap flashlight toting infantry.
In the current edition that doesn't work. IG use elite troops and a handful of other tools to attempt to win, apparently GW put all the gunline money into making Tau the most boring army to play against.
Wouldn't that end up getting fixed if they made vehicles not gak?
That'd be a good start. But it's not like footguard is particularly good - many of the infantry choices are stupendously bad.
^This. Fixing vehicle rules will benefit the IG codex, but it has a plethora of other issues. Most of the codex needs a significant points reduction. Foot guard largely serve only as a tax on the army, instead of the meat shield/expendable resource they are supposed to be. Most of the elite choices are way overpriced or do not fulfill the roles they are intended to. Orders need a massive buff in utility/function (like give outflank, twin link, be able to issue orders to vehicles as non tank commander etc) and when used with vox caster need to have infinite range. Either special weapons given to infantry need to be reduced in cost to reflect the guard statline (we currently pay SM prices) or IG infantry need be reduced in cost further. All of this is just the tip of the iceberg of issues plaguing IG codex.
On the subject of points, yeah, IG is broadly overcosted for a very different play environment. A lot of units (Elites & SCs, in particular) that I like the idea of are so overpriced, I just can't see myself fielding them, even if I have the models. Orders should be simpler and more meaningful, without as many restrictions; FRFSRF should simply grant every weapon an extra die -- simple & effective. Yes, infantry weapon upgrades are heavily overcosted with SM points on IG; but naked IG don't have that much room to get much cheaper - it's the associated kit that makes the army so overpriced.
OTOH, if I'm playing my IG against natural enemies like Orks / Dark Eldar / Tyranids, it's not so bad.
1. I would like to see first turn assault, assault from vehicles and assault from deep-strike get reworked. I don't really have any ideas on how to fix them, just something I wouldn't mind seeing a pass on.
2. In specific I would like to see Dark Angel characters mounted on bikes receive the Ravenwing special rule. If I'm stretching I would like to be able to mount them to a Black Knight bike with plasma talon.
“Rumours are naught but lies given shape by the foolish tongues of the ignorant. Ignorance begets heresy. Heresy begets retribution.” -Regimental Standard
2016/11/02 23:02:16
Subject: If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
Snake Tortoise wrote: The basic infantry for every faction. I want to see and use armies where the bulk of models are your most basic troop unit; chaos marines, space marines, guard platoons, termagants, ork boyz, eldar guardians etc. I can think of a couple of simple ways to achieve this. Either make core infantry choices disproportionately cheap (10 point tac marines, possibly even cheaper than that), or have a few pure troop formations for every faction, like four units of (insert unit) with really good buffs that aren't even attempting to balance themselves against other formations. I want really strong incentives to field troops, not just ObSec.
I'd also like to see gargantuans/superheavies paying a premium to be fielded. Go the other way with these units and make them prohibitively expensive for competitive games but still kind of okay for casual environments. They'll still sell, and probably cause carnage in a troop heavy meta, but you just won't win the mission against a halfway savvy opponent who can field five fully upgraded tac squads for the price of your knight.
I think the game should return to its "core" and that troops should be the only unit capable of being ObSec. Even making sure you have a percentage of troops would be nice, ala WHFB. Troops should be the the thing that makes the game run, which makes objectives work (they are trained to take them after all, specialists are equipped to take objectives) and they should also be a bit cheaper on top of that. Ive always been the guy who spammed tact marines back in the day so the gladius was a bit of a godsend because I already played Codex compliant.
The real big change the game needs is how vehicles and monstrous creatures work. As it is vehicles are too weak and MCs are too powerful, and they both suffer from some degree of rules bloat. Id like to see them either melded together or like it was said earlier have them lose power as they lose wounds, or at least give MCs a damage chart like vehicles have.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 23:58:25
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"
-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer
2016/11/03 01:26:10
Subject: If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
Baldeagle91 wrote: However one of the main issues facing vehicles is how CC affects them, hit's to rear armour should not be automatic and everyone has thought this for a long time now.
I don't In fact, I'm vehemently against removing hitting back armor in CC, for a reason you yourself stated: Massed fire needs to be capable of destroying lighter vehicles. Since normal units can only ever get a better melee weapon on the sarge and a power fists costs more than two meltaguns, being able to deal with vehicles with basic attacks has to happen. Otherwise, you need vehicles to be able to be locked in combat or not have assault units be forced to make the shortest distance when assaulting, or assault armies will end up needing dedicated elite assault units to deal with anything tougher than a rhino.
Albeit most dedicated CC armies have option towards rending etc. It personally seems funny to me that a single sergeant with a powerfist that gets close to a few tanks, can quite easily knock all of them out with little to no effort. If you're truly swarming tanks, you should have guys swinging near the near armour anyway. Plus my point for massed fire is more addressing basic arms vs vehicles no better than civilian cars.... by comparison you have guys hitting battle tanks and knocking them out as easily as Trukks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/03 01:26:23
2000
1500
Astral Miliwhat? You're in the Guard son!
2016/11/03 07:29:17
Subject: If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
ERJAK wrote: Celestine needs EWBSS need to drop 1-2ppm, seraphim need a cqc gimmick, repentia need bikes, Canoness needs a 35pt drop or some serious buffs, Celestians need to not be pointless, penitent engines need to be monstrous creatures. exorcist is great but less random please. drop pods would be cool.
Love playing my Sisters army and don't really have any real problems on the table top with them aside from 36" range strong armies on tables with too little terrain....like scatbike filled armies.
But this post pretty well sums up what a new sisters codex could use, especially the 1 to 2 ppm drop on BSS just to make up for how strong a marine with chapter tactics is in comparison to a Battle Sister.
2016/11/03 09:11:23
Subject: Re:If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
hrmp.. i would like to see bikes have a shorter range on weapons.
Having a relentless platform, that moves 12 inch with 18inch gravguns, or Eldar with Jetbikes and scatter, and doesnt have a accuracy reduction.. is kinda odd?
I think it would be better balanced, that if the bike/jetbike moves 6 inch or less it would be able to shoot at max range with accuracy.
If the bike/jetbike moves 6.1 inch to 12 inch, it would be able to shoot half range as normal, or over half to maximum with snapshots(or less ballistic skill).
This too show that moving at high speeds has a negative effect on long range accuracy.
2016/11/03 10:52:46
Subject: If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
15K White Scars Brotherhood of the Twin Wolves (30K)
6K Imperial Fists 35th Cohort (30K)
7K Thousand Sons Guard of the Crimson King (30K)
3K Talons of the Emperor (30K)
2K Mechanicum Legio Cybernetica (30K)
1K Titans of Legio Astorum
3K Knights of House Cadmus (30K)
12K Cadian/Catachan/Tallarn/ST Battlegroup "Misericorde" (40K)
1K Inquisitorial Task Force "Hoffer" (40K)
2K Silver Wardens (UM Successors) 4th Company "The Avenged" (40K)
10K Empire of Man Nuln Expeditionary Force (WFB)
5K Vampire Counts (WFB)
2016/11/03 13:27:01
Subject: If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
Also, bring back the power of the Combined Arms Detachment.
No to the VDRs. That set of rules was far too easy to abuse. Although an amusing result of my messing around with them was me spending considerable time and effort converting Rhinos into Rhinos.
In case you want the full story....
Spoiler:
I'd set out to make a vehicle to fill the role of a Predator, but have better ability to move and shoot. I had an extra front plate from a Land Raider kicking around from having built my LR Prometheus, so I substituted that for the Rhino's front plate, and threw together a TLLC turret that would fit in the space, with a TLLC Razorback turret for the top. In a fit of enthusiasm for the idea, I built a second. Then I came to my senses and realized no one was likely to agree to let me use the things, so I used plasticard to make little additions I could drop into the space to fill them in and represent a driver's position. Wound up with a couple of distinctive-looking, somewhat asymmetrical Rhinos.
An additional wrinkle to this story - I left them in my car on a hot, sunny day. They warped, particularly those Land Raider plates. So, I took them out, and I was going to simply replicate the normal Rhino front plate with plasticard as best I could, when I had the idea to instead build out the front with an extended cab, kind of like the Unimog, or various European APCs. That worked pretty decently. Now I have a couple visually distinctive, symmetrical Rhinos. I call them MkIV Rhinos (the previous versions being Mk IIIs), and I say the extra space provides more room for ammunition and supplies for the squads.
In principle, I agree with giving some kind of buff to CADs.
One thing I think 5th ed did right - only Troops could score. If we went back to that - sure, you can min-max and skimp on Troops to build a huge deathstar, or to cram in as many Riptides or Wraithknights as you can, but when I kill your 100pts of Troops with my whole army, about the best you'll be able to do is tie.
return to 5th ed FNP rules. NO RE-ROLL INVO SAVES.
Cover = BS modifier (this is a buff to blast weapons)
Buff infantry (esp elite infantry)
Fix MC/Vehical disparity.
Remove IGOUGO - Initive activation system.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2016/11/03 16:22:37
Subject: If 8th drops what do you have you'd like to see buffed/usable?
Like everyone else is saying, put the focus back towards core units and infantry. We can keep Superheavies and Flyers, but make them more vulnerable to infantry so people are less forced to have a "hard-counter".
Use of more than one Grenade in assault with MCs and vehicles again, please. (nix the draft FAQ ruling)
I'll echo the above post and also say no to first turn assaults.
Right now Vehicles require 25+% cover to get a cover save, while MC's only require base contact. This doesn't feel right.
Ability for weapons to do multiple wounds to models would be nice. For example, if a model is hit by a weapon with more than 2 Strength above the Targets toughness, do 2 wounds. EG, a Riptide hit by a Lascannon takes two wounds. A Wraithknight would take only one. (or some similar mechanic) A Plasma Gun would do two wounds to a Space Marine Captain with this rule. Plasma Cannons get more interesting.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/03 18:05:41
In fact, I'm vehemently against removing hitting back armor in 
Bonespitta's Badmoons 1441 pts. 
Ulthwe: 7500 points 
~1.5k
-- $k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
1500
15K White Scars Brotherhood of the Twin Wolves (30K)
6K Imperial Fists 35th Cohort (30K)
7K Thousand Sons Guard of the Crimson King (30K)
3K Talons of the Emperor (30K)
2K Mechanicum Legio Cybernetica (30K)
1K Inquisitorial Task Force "Hoffer" (40K)
10K Empire of Man Nuln Expeditionary Force (WFB)
