Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I agree with a lot of points here.

Right now the game seems to be about speed and numbers, or D weaponry.

Personally I think escalation should be a 3rd game type, or just bring back the VP system it had. The escalation VP system where you got points for beating down a Super Heavy when you didn't have one was pretty nice. It might lower the spamming of them in games if they gave up a few VP for killing them.

The D table and vehicle damage table, both I feel need reworked.

Right now the D table is either "I did a bit of damage" or "lol, you lose the game because I rolled a 6" and there is nothing fun about that. 6 on the D chart is too much for standard tabletop play to me.

I feel like vehicles became a liability, so GW started to give them out for free. So were in a nasty spot. I wish we could go back to no free transports and just make vehicles a little more durable and better.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
I always wondered why GW has been so resistant to making the medium Tyranid bugs T5. There's a fairly logical progression from T3 Gaunts to T4 Genestealers, then T6 Tyrants and T7 Carnifexes. But, there's a gap where T5 ought to be, and the midsized bugs are bigger than Stealers but smaller than Tyrants, so you'd think T5 would be logical for them. Instead, they're T4, and occasionally have BS rules exempting them from Instant Death because GW won't do the logical thing and just make them T5.

You know? That's a damn fine point. Warriors wouldn't be fearing Krak Missiles or Battlecannons at T5.

The main problem there is that I think warriors would then experience a further price hike. Outside of instant death issues of being T4, I think T4 suits them. But then again eternal warrior would be too OP, especially vs S9 + S10 weapons, realistically they should be T4 with T4.5 in terms of instant death which is impossible. So I suppose T5 would be the best solution :/

T4 is a marine. T5 is a centurion. Think about the size of the Warrior, to which one is closer?

Size isn't a measure of toughness, there's a reason they're 3W and fluff wise I think T4 suits them perfectly fine. They're not suppose to be tanky units, but yes they're suppose to be tough. The problem is they're already 30 ppm, make them T5 and they're going to be extremely tough units to remove from the table and I'd imagine they're also experience a price hike. Against small arms fire or even Krak Missiles I'm perfectly fine with them being T4, it's just vs blasts in all honesty that it ruins the unit which is made worse by the fact most large blasts are S8-10.

SemperMortis wrote:

Nope, those little buggers should be AV10, maybe the broadsides should be 11 but thats it. And they should be 2HPs

Yeah, like that'll happen. . .

It'd also make them less susceptible to CC, which is the wrong direction anyways. Guardsmen couldn't hurt them at all in CC, Vehicles are fearless so you couldn't Sweeping Advance them, with drones you'd wind up with units that are both standard infantry stats and Vehicle rules. . . making them AV just isn't the way to go. There are easier solutions available.

I'd be happy to see walkers got rid of and just become MC. Doesn't really add anything to the game, mechanically, by having a weird halfway-between-vehicle-and-infantry category in there, and it definitely causes a fair bit of weird bother.

 Nazrak wrote:
I'd be happy to see walkers got rid of and just become MC. Doesn't really add anything to the game, mechanically, by having a weird halfway-between-vehicle-and-infantry category in there, and it definitely causes a fair bit of weird bother.

I don't know if they should be gotten rid of, but the relationship between the MCs and Walkers definitely needs some adjustments.

But what does something being a walker, rather than an MC, add to the game? It seems like an unnecessary complication to me. Of course it's entirely possible I've overlooked something.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I'd be happy to see walkers got rid of and just become MC. Doesn't really add anything to the game, mechanically, by having a weird halfway-between-vehicle-and-infantry category in there, and it definitely causes a fair bit of weird bother.

I don't know if they should be gotten rid of, but the relationship between the MCs and Walkers definitely needs some adjustments.

I agree, I like having something being critters and some things being robots, but the MC ruleset currently is far superior to that of walkers and vehicles in general.

 Nazrak wrote:
But what does something being a walker, rather than an MC, add to the game? It seems like an unnecessary complication to me. Of course it's entirely possible I've overlooked something.

My dreadnought can walk into a unit of gaunts, zombies, guardsmen and heck, even most tactical marine squads and not have much to worry about.
Most MCs can be slowly whittled down by numbers of attacks. Even the riptide can be taken out by orks or guard.

Armor ignores light fire, toughness doesn't. That is what it adds. You used to have to have the right tools to kill a walker or tank, but now, many units can glance them to death.

 Jaxler wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Given their size its hard to argue Crisis Suits and Broadsides staying T4, at least both of them being it.

They used to be toughness 5. Frankly I think they should be made T5 because crisis suits already have a tough time being competitive, and broadsides feel way to soft IMO.

Nah. T4 is OK. They just need 4++ with a bonus FNP on top of that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
Less buffs, more nerfs, I think, with the main one being a re-understanding of the core game.

A game that's based around the troopers, common footsloggers getting in there and getting it done.

No super-heavy stuff, no flyers, no crazy stuff ... just a game where basic Guardsmen, Ork Boys, and Tactical Marines can throw down and make a big difference by themselves, rather than just being "Ablative wounds for a heavy/special weapon".

Is that too much to ask?

Yes. Yes it is. I like my giant toys, TYVM.

Yeah, as a principle I don't have a problem with Flyers or Superheavies, it's just that the rules around them could make them much more engaging, and ensure relevancy for the little guy.

Get rid of multiple saves (RP, FnP, etc) and rerolls on saves, they slow the game down, if you want something to be tough give it more wounds.

Replace AP with rend, AP is all or nothing and that's lame. Rend allows for diversification of weapons without invalidating an opponents defenses.

Get rid of the vehicle damage table, and replace it with multiple profiles based on how many Hull points a vehicle has taken. Give them a bunch of hull points, and allow penetrating hits from heavy weapons to do multiple hull points. This makes vehicles harder to glance to death, but allows heavy weapons a specific role in taking them down. We do the same thing for monstrous creatures, multiple profiles, and heavy weapons do multiple wounds with a good rend value.

Get rid of ID, make high strength weapons inflict multiple wounds per hit, so there is a chance that a space marine IC might survive a hit from a melta (like huron blackheart).

Have modifiers to saves instead of different save types, Cover gives a +1 to your save (to a maximum save of 2+ after rending), Invul saves are a minimum value that your save can't be reduced past, for instance a chaplain would have a 3+ save and could only be rended down to a 4+.

The biggest, best nerf I'd like to say is on saving throws, and would something like this:

"When a model takes a wound, it gets one attempt to remove the damage. This can take several forms, and you may pick which one to attempt for each wound your model takes.

Armor Save - These are negated by sufficient armor piercing (For example, an armor save of 5+ can be negated by AP 5 or lower)

Cover Save - These are negated by any weapon with the "Ignores cover" rule, and also may not be taken against melee attacks.

Feel No Pain - These are negated by any attack that inflicts Instant Death. (Most notable of these is an attack with a Strength of double or greater of the target's Toughness)

Invulnerable Save - Unless they are generated by a special rule that notes that they may be negated, a model may always take invulnerable Saves. Note that, unlike other saves, you may never reroll invulnerable saves.

When a model suffers a wound, you may choose one method that the model has to try and reduce the wound. If this save is failed, you may not attempt another way to negate the wound."

Push the Necron Repair Protocols up into Feel no Pain, and let fly.

So, invulnerable saves, never get rerolls.
All other saves might be rerolled (due to a psychic power, for instance), but may be negated.

You only get one try to dodge damage. No more "Try my invulnerable 3+. , reroll it, 4+ feel no pain (and possible repair after *that*!) ... just one and done.

This lets you play around with a few rules from there.

For example, allow Terminators to reroll failed armor saves. Suddenly, the pitter-patter of Gretchin blasters is as rain upon them, splattering off simply, while heavy guns can still power through. Meanwhile, Deathstars take a gamble as you don't get to stack save on top of save ..one well-placed kaboom could wipe them out in one go..

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Given their size its hard to argue Crisis Suits and Broadsides staying T4, at least both of them being it.

They used to be toughness 5. Frankly I think they should be made T5 because crisis suits already have a tough time being competitive, and broadsides feel way to soft IMO.

Nah. T4 is OK. They just need 4++ with a bonus FNP on top of that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wakshaani wrote:
Less buffs, more nerfs, I think, with the main one being a re-understanding of the core game.

A game that's based around the troopers, common footsloggers getting in there and getting it done.

No super-heavy stuff, no flyers, no crazy stuff ... just a game where basic Guardsmen, Ork Boys, and Tactical Marines can throw down and make a big difference by themselves, rather than just being "Ablative wounds for a heavy/special weapon".

Is that too much to ask?

Yes. Yes it is. I like my giant toys, TYVM.

So blow 40 points making it so your crisis suits can only have 1 weapon? You've literally doubled the price and halved the shooting power of a crisis suit so that it only gains 4 up invuln when a 5 up cover save is almost always there, and FNP does nothing about str 8.

Broadsides can only take one support system and FNP is useless against str 8, and your broadsides should always be in 4+ cover anyways.

Here's my mad list of space marine (and others) things I think would be neat:

1. Let different guns in the same unit shoot at different targets (across the board, but prob affects marines and IG the most).

2. Tac marines get a combat blade as well as their bolter and pistol. Give Chainswords Shred. Tacs become more flexible, assault marines become nastier.

3. Storm bolters become Assault 4. (Range 18"?) Back in the day, they used to kick out twice as many shots as a bolter. Now they aren't different enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Prob bump tacs and assault marines by a point if you're implementing the above)

 Nazrak wrote:
Here's my mad list of space marine (and others) things I think would be neat:

1. Let different guns in the same unit shoot at different targets (across the board, but prob affects marines and IG the most).

2. Tac marines get a combat blade as well as their bolter and pistol. Give Chainswords Shred. Tacs become more flexible, assault marines become nastier.

3. Storm bolters become Assault 4. (Range 18"?) Back in the day, they used to kick out twice as many shots as a bolter. Now they aren't different enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Prob bump tacs and assault marines by a point if you're implementing the above)

In regards to number 3, the DA have a Relic that is exactly that, plus Shred and AP4 for about 20 points. Not great, but can be a nasty little surprise from a Librarian leading a bunch of Terminators.

Change the explodes result to "model losses 1+d3 hull points. If it's not a Super heavy, it also suffers the loss of a random weapon, is immobilized and can only snap fire, also all models inside take a str 4 hit and must take a leadership test. If they fail they can only snap fire.

I'd like to exploded not insta kill automatically.

 Jaxler wrote:
Change the explodes result to "model losses 1+d3 hull points. If it's not a Super heavy, it also suffers the loss of a random weapon, is immobilized and can only snap fire, also all models inside take a str 4 hit and must take a leadership test. If they fail they can only snap fire.

I'd like to exploded not insta kill automatically.

Most vehicles are 3 HP, Land Raiders are 4. That'd still kill most vehicles 66% of the time, and Land Raiders 25% of the time. You'd have to give them more hull points.

If we fixed termies to be closer to the lore then each standard marine would need fixed, and therefore cost 300 ppm

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
Change the explodes result to "model losses 1+d3 hull points. If it's not a Super heavy, it also suffers the loss of a random weapon, is immobilized and can only snap fire, also all models inside take a str 4 hit and must take a leadership test. If they fail they can only snap fire.

I'd like to exploded not insta kill automatically.

Most vehicles are 3 HP, Land Raiders are 4. That'd still kill most vehicles 66% of the time, and Land Raiders 25% of the time. You'd have to give them more hull points.

I would actually like for most things to have more wounds/HP, but for those wounds/HP to be easier to take off. It's one of the things I love about AoS. Even though I may not have removed that model with my attack, I feel like I've actually done something.

For the Tau, and restricting the discussion to the topic at hand (that is, what one wants to see BUFFED/USABLE, not which models you want to see nerfed into oblivion because they've touched you in a bad place, while allowing for minor changes to avoid people hating you for fielding a model at all)...

I think a general buff to vehicles would be a substantial step in making all Tau vehicles worthwhile. The only thing I could imagine still needing a buff would probably be the Hammerhead's Railgun (unless they fix the issue of the relative weakness for single shot, high strength/low ap guns).

Devilfish could stand to drop a bit in points, though nothing drastic.

I'd like to see Vespid be improved again - as is, their niche is too small to be worth taking when one can get more Crisis suits. Rending on their claws, maybe, to represent their ability to tear through rocks?

I'd like to see viable Kroot CQC capabilities like the old 4th ed codex, with S4 and effectively two attacks base. Preferrably one could still take them with Sniper rounds, but I wouldn't mind if one had to choose between the extra attack and the ability to shoot sniper shots.

Fire Warriors and Breacher teams are probably roughly fine where they are, and would be in a reasonably fine place if they had slightly cheaper transport options.

Stealth teams could use a slight point cost reduction, though the OSC formation is already a pretty big effective point reduction (the equivalent of 3 ML tokens per squad, which would be about 66 points per squad at the cheapest, albeit with fairly light restrictions).

Crisis Suits are fine as they are - I don't think they quite deserve T5, and the mechanics for Infantry fit them far better than the mechanics for Walkers.

Broadsides, with their significantly upsized (practically Dreadnought-sized) models, would be well served by a T5. The HYMP is fine (if not underpriced) as is, but the Heavy Rail Rifle should be a Rapidfire instead of Heavy so it can compete. I'd accept a slight point increase for these changes to keep them balanced.

Ghostkeels seem fine, though I've found their Small Blast melta weapon underwhelming. Not sure how to fix that, and not sure if my experience is universal, so I'd be OK if it was left as is.

Riptides should have their point cost increased a bit. I'd also be fine with the IA losing some range (down to 36"-48"). The Heavy Burst Cannon could stand to be buffed a bit - Perhaps Rending on the non-Nova firing mode.

Stormsurges should be T7, but not capable of being taken in multiples (They're Lords of War, FFS).

The Coldstar Commander needs to prevent instant death upon failing the check after being hit while flying. That's just silly. I would prefer if it was a bit more open to modification in weapons loadoat.


Generally speaking, I wouldn't mind if 8th added some sort of "Cyborg" or "Machine" USR that one could apply to Infantry-type models, which would allow for effective immunity against things like Fleshbane, Poison, and the like, while making them more vulnerable to Haywire, Armorbane, and other anti-vehicle tools.

That would help Tau battlesuits make more sense in their behavior and durability in the game.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Right now the D table is either "I did a bit of damage" or "lol, you lose the game because I rolled a 6" and there is nothing fun about that. 6 on the D chart is too much for standard tabletop play to me.

This. Wraithguard can potentially do more damage on Overwatch than most units can in a full turn, and while there are ways to mitigate this it still seems a bit excessive to me.

First, the D table starts with NOTHING HAPPENS [1] and jumps up to 6+d6 [6].

Second, if WG are doing that much damage on Overwatch, you need to ensure that fair dice are being used, because that's an awful lot of 6s that Eldar player is rolling. If that other unit is always rolling 6s, it's going to do an awful lot of damage, too.

Well D-Scythe WG get D3 automatic hits each for overwatch.

a 5 man unit is going to get 10 D hits against a charging unit on average, typically killing 7-8 models.

Make small blasts better. Right now their hard counter is maximum distance of unit coherency and larger bases.

 Jaxler wrote:
Make small blasts better. Right now their hard counter is maximum distance of unit coherency and larger bases.

I second this. I've got plasma cannon devs that never get used.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Well D-Scythe WG get D3 automatic hits each for overwatch.

a 5 man unit is going to get 10 D hits against a charging unit on average, typically killing 7-8 models.

If it's D-Scythes, then it's 10 D-1 hits, so it'll kill 6-7 models.

Tactically, maybe it's not a good idea to charge a unit of UberFlamers, given that said unit is slow and short-ranged, and not especially durable for the points...

I was just refuting your claim that they aren't super-killy when overwatching. They are when they have D-Scythes.

When a 35pt T6 3+sv Fearless model is no longer considered particularly durable, you know the game has been fundamentally broken

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I was just refuting your claim that they aren't super-killy when overwatching. They are when they have D-Scythes.

You just said "WG", which default to be armed with standard Wraithcannon. 6 WG will score 1 hit, and maybe kill 1 dude. That is not even close to "super-killy" when overwatching.

I might as well say that SM are super solid against Imperial Guard S8 AP3 Battlecannon fire, without clarifying afterward that they are when they have Terminator armor....

You're mixing people up here, I only ever said WG with D-Scythes. It was the other guy (the one who started this conversation) that just said WG.

It seemed pretty obvious to me that he meant D-Scythe WG, as that's the most common kind you see these days simply because of how devastating their firepower is.