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Have two editions of the game, one for mass battles, one for smaller games. Two different sets of rules and two different sets of allowable units.
Do away with physical codex's and rulebooks and have a subscription whereby you get access to all the current rules and units. This can then be tweaked when a rule or unit is clearly op or not working as intended (like patching a game) This would be done at certain known dates, it would be up to tournament organisers to choose which patch they're playing at.
From a financial point of view I doubt GW would lose money, and from a personal point of view I'd be more inclined to try new stuff if I didn't have to keep buying new books.

I actually thought of a unit I'd like buffed/made usable.

I'd like the official rules to allow my Exorcists to fire at their intended targets so we don't have to keep houseruling that the standard line-of-sight rules do not apply to it.

I'm a bit worried. I recently bought some DKoK and now that 8th edition is soon to arrive I wonder what that will change. GW will probably pump out the popular codexes fairly promptly but FW aren't known, is my impression at least, of releasing updated books in a timely manner. It would suck severely to have a totally outdated army book (assault brigade) when the next edition is released.

Panzerkanzler wrote:
I'm a bit worried. I recently bought some DKoK and now that 8th edition is soon to arrive I wonder what that will change. GW will probably pump out the popular codexes fairly promptly but FW aren't known, is my impression at least, of releasing updated books in a timely manner. It would suck severely to have a totally outdated army book (assault brigade) when the next edition is released.

In all honesty this is why I don't think an extreme 40k revamp would happen. Sure with fantasy they produced army lists, but most of them were extremely limited. By comparison for 40K they would be required to release all the main army books on release of 8th.... unless "shock horror"... they do what they did in 3rd and include them all in the main rulebook.

In terms of forgeworld books.... we still have some from 5th edition...

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
By comparison for 40K they would be required to release all the main army books on release of 8th.... unless "shock horror"awesomesauce... they do what they did in 3rd and include them all in the main rulebook.

FTFY. Rulebook lists would rule.

A fully supported army builder that covers all books and into Forge World

Simple; assault marines.

 Vash108 wrote:
A fully supported army builder that covers all books and into Forge World

You might REALLY like this then

http://hq-builder.com/

 Vaktathi wrote:

the problem is that theyve incrementally changed the core ruleset to death, we're on the 5th version of the same ruleset and arguably the least balanced and hardest to learn, and with all the power ramp up they've introduced, there's no good way to tone that down through product releases that wont take the lifespan of another edition anyway, and a sharp break will help realign player expectations in power levels better (as the game will be a blank slate) than a gradual change that clings to elements that nobody can ever quite seem to kill off.

This.

Also, to the people defending 7th because of its complexity... 7th is not complex. It's just convoluted. All the 100s of pages of superfluous rules are a huge drain of money, time and brainpower, but they don't add anything meaningful to the play experience. At its core, 40k is as tactically simple and unchallenging as 4-page AoS. The only challenge is in keeping track of dozens of near identical ways to do the same thing with the same end results.

Fix look out sir to only be able to be used once a phase

Fix it to if you shoot and kill a target completely, that you can charge a different target within range instead of just sitting there doing nothing.

There needs to be a better reason to take not just troops, but all infantry on foot. GW has tried to force it in with scoring & objective secured, but there are very few armies that take more than 2 minimum squads of footsloggers if they have any other choice. Gladius shows that you need to give people 500+ points of free transports to consider it!

Ways to do this would be increasing overall durability of infantry, or vastly increasing the points of Elite units. Or making dudes on foot the only models that can truly make full use of cover & giving them the most manoeuvrability compared to other models.

Also:
Kill battle brothers
Only one IC per squad
Get rid of "tactical 6" abilities like D, stomp, etc that completely change the course of a game in a single roll.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
By comparison for 40K they would be required to release all the main army books on release of 8th.... unless "shock horror"awesomesauce... they do what they did in 3rd and include them all in the main rulebook.

FTFY. Rulebook lists would rule.

I have to admit it was awesome in 3rd.

Trasvi wrote:
Get rid of "tactical 6" abilities like D, stomp, etc that completely change the course of a game in a single roll.

Hold on there, hoss. Thorpian 6s are one of the few good things about 40k. Stomp 6, in particular, is completely necessary to counter Deathstars.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Get rid of "tactical 6" abilities like D, stomp, etc that completely change the course of a game in a single roll.

Hold on there, hoss. Thorpian 6s are one of the few good things about 40k. Stomp 6, in particular, is completely necessary to counter Deathstars.

Well some of the main features of deathstars need to be removed. Some of the unit/terrain swapping and invisi' powers especially.

Stuff like D or Stomp 6's is far too variable to be a consistently effective answer to deathstars, particularly when it doesnt usually effect the entire unit, and absolutely murders big single units that dont posses the same sort of distributed and overlapping durability a Deathstar does, stuff like Land Raiders or Baneblades and the like.

Deathstar mechanics need to be addressed, but the random "6" results arent currently a viablr counter, and are a really poor ham-fisted way of doing that in the first place.

By that same token of "but I need X to deal with Y", why exactly do death stars need to nerfed? Considering the paltry state of assault, units that have the speed AND toughness to get into melee without getting flattened by the outrageous shooting some armies have is the best (if not only) way to deal with gunlines. And it certainly seems like many of the suggestions to nerf death star hurt assault units as a whole and only increases the reliance on death stars.

The issues with deathstars and the issues with assault are distinct, deathstars happen to generally be assault units, but they neednt all be (see Centstars), the fundamental issue is that many deathstars are effectively unkillable, particularly if theyre not facing a blistering Eldar gunline. When you get TWC or Wraith units that take more S10 AP1 firepower to kill off than a Titan, and require nearly a thousand lasgun shots to kill or more (far more than any army is ever going to be able to bring to bear over 6 turns), thats a major issue.

They're not fun to play against, don't take much skill or intelligence to play, and, most critically, often are built around playing gimmicks with rules that really were never intended to be able to make the units that are possible.

Assault units have some issues. Deathstars are neither an appropriate answer nor are their issues inextricably linked to assault.

Being able to assault out of stationary transports or from walk on reserve would solve a whole lot of issues on its own, Deathstars are not the answer there.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Dreadnoughts. I love the damn things, but they're too fragile.

I would love to see Melee Dreads actually usable, I would even give to have 5th edition shooty dreads back!

In similar threads, I've mentioned that I'd like to see the elimination of Walker Vehicles and make then all MCs.

Instant boost right there.

"But, but! What about poison! You can't make a dread die to massed poison fire!"

"Fine. Give them Walker Special rule: Immune to weapons with the Poison rule/type/whatever."

Bam. Done.

 kronk wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Dreadnoughts. I love the damn things, but they're too fragile.

I would love to see Melee Dreads actually usable, I would even give to have 5th edition shooty dreads back!

In similar threads, I've mentioned that I'd like to see the elimination of Walker Vehicles and make then all MCs.

Instant boost right there.

"But, but! What about poison! You can't make a dread die to massed poison fire!"

"Fine. Give them Walker Special rule: Immune to weapons with the Poison rule/type/whatever."

Bam. Done.

Or add a subtype of MC, rule Non-Biological or Armored Skin which makes it immune. That would fill anything not considered "walker" for future proofing.

 Vaktathi wrote:
They're not fun to play against, don't take much skill or intelligence to play, and, most critically, often are built around playing gimmicks with rules that really were never intended to be able to make the units that are possible.

At that rate, we Squat the Necrons. Actually....

I think troops need a reason to be taken but I don't think having them be the only scoring units is it. Troops are a filler unit at the moment, but making them the only scoring unit turns them from filler to most of your army. Say what you want about how armies should be, but nobody likes having 70% of their 1000 dollar army be vanilla infantryman. Boring to model, boring to play.

I want to see snipers be buffed. I want orks to be less random. Orks shouldn't be good at shooting, but I've taken models that literally never hit, making them irrelevant in my army. No model should be like that if you ask me. And its not like its overpowered when they do hit, its the exact same as other armies (sometimes weaker, never stronger).

 Don Savik wrote:
I think troops need a reason to be taken but I don't think having them be the only scoring units is it.

What if that reason is to get lots of FREE Scoring Transports? Is that a good enough reason?

I say:
1. Only Infantry Troops are Scoring.
2. Only other Infantry, MCs and Walkers Contest.
3. The rest do nothing for Objectives!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
They're not fun to play against, don't take much skill or intelligence to play, and, most critically, often are built around playing gimmicks with rules that really were never intended to be able to make the units that are possible.

At that rate, we Squat the Necrons. Actually....

In their current incarnation...


Well, most can probably agree that the implementation of RP is probably more than a wee bit strong in its "enhancable-and-always-on-army-wide-super-FNP" form. It certainly results in many of the same issues as Deathstars and Wraiths are unjustifiably powerful.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
Get rid of "tactical 6" abilities like D, stomp, etc that completely change the course of a game in a single roll.

Hold on there, hoss. Thorpian 6s are one of the few good things about 40k. Stomp 6, in particular, is completely necessary to counter Deathstars.

As others said: death stars are a different issue, which would be severely minimised by my other suggestions of removing battle brothers & restricting ICs in a unit.

Personally I get very frustrated that some 40k games can swing so massively on a single dice roll. I recently played against a friends Tau list, and tabled him handily because his Stormsurge didn't kill my knight with its missiles. We then turned around and played the exact same game, and I conceded on turn 2 because the tactical 6's showed up. Such a big variance over such a little yet fairly common thing should not be possible.


If it is necessary to deal with death stars, then both death stars and strength D are problematic.

 kronk wrote:


In similar threads, I've mentioned that I'd like to see the elimination of Walker Vehicles and make then all MCs.

Instant boost right there.

"But, but! What about poison! You can't make a dread die to massed poison fire!"

"Fine. Give them Walker Special rule: Immune to weapons with the Poison rule/type/whatever."

Bam. Done.

That's heresy! Execute him right away and head to the production line. We've got tons of shakium and explodium to utilise.

I'll just start with basic game rules I think could be changed, going by order of game turn.

-Pregame-

No more battle brothers on the allies matrix.

Warlord Traits...need to be reworked so that instead of random rolling you can pick your choice of trait. This requires a rework of all the different trait tables to so that all choices are somewhat balanced, or assign point costs to the traits so that better ones can have higher prices.

Psychic Powers...random rolling these is garbage. Completely redo the power tables as I mentioned from warlord traits.


-Movement Phase-

Change moving through Difficult terrain to a straight up -2 to movement and nothing more for Infantry models. No more random die rolling.

Vehicles (non skimmer) should be able to move up to 6 inches and still fire all weapons, if it moves 12 inches then reduce this to 1 weapon at full bs and others at snap shots. They should also be able to disembark passengers after having moved 12, or move up to 12 after embarking them.

Jump Pack units should be able to choose to jink if they used the jump pack during movement phase.

Beast type units should be reduced to a speed of 9 inches instead of 12 inches.

Skimmer units should be able to move up to 12 inches and fire all weapons, and move up to 18 with snap fire all weapons.

MC's and Walkers can move up to 9 inches during movement phase


-Psychic Phase-

Roll 3+1d6 for general warp charges.

Your Psykers can only use powers with the warp charges they personally generate and the general pool from above. No one may "borrow" warp charges from any other friendly unit.


-Shooting Phase-

Infantry units that wish to declare a run can now run a full 6 inches (unless slowed by terrain as discussed) in Lieu of shooting.

Beast units that wish to declare a run can now run a full 9 inches (see terrain statement) in lieu of shooting.

Remove twin-linked off MANY weapons systems. This means people are going to miss more often, sure. OTOH it makes armor/cover/invuln saves more worthwhile. Since I've seen too many people bitching about armor re-rolls being super broken then I think removing a lot of re-rolls to hit would help balance this out.

Wound allocation works fine most of the time I think but I think blasts should be able to effect people even not in line of sight.

Bikes should have firing arcs with their mounted weapons.


-Assault Phase-

Units should be able to assault turn 1 capable.

Troops should be able to,assault out of a stationary transport.

Troops should be able to charge from reserves but will count as a disorderly charge.


Now, here some specific changes for Space Marines since that is my primary force...

WS...remove Hit and Run from all their units with the exceptions of bike and jump troops. Also, Khan does not GIVE scout to all transports, only bike units and maybe jump units.

IH are mostly ok, but I think the Gorgans chain artifact has to go. Chapter Master Smashfether needs to not be a thing. Also, their FnP should just be a base 5+ anyway.

Salamanders...should have access to heavy flamers in their Tac squads, option for artificer armour to be bough for any Character, and the option to switch out a melta pistol for a plasma pistol.

So just a few thing I think would improve the new edition.

Some early ideas -

Make vehicles tougher and more distinct than MCs. Right now vehicles are unarmored mcs that don't perform as well.

Vehicles should be much tougher, but weaker in close quarters and not as versatile as MCs (ie, slower, can't traverse terrain as easily, limited vision cones, etc)

MCs should be relatively less resilant (tougher than infantry, but more fragile than vehicles), don't pack as much fire power, but more mobile and better in assault and tends to specialize in short ranged combat.

In other words, MCs are assault juggernaut like units, whereas vehicles tend to be better at medium to long range.

At least that's the general idea. There will be exceptions.

Make flyers into gunships that behave more like helicopters / vtol aircraft. The fact that a "jet" moves something like 18" a turn is silly. That's still not far enough for a vehicle that's supposed to be moving super fast.

Basically, all flyers now much move a minimum of 3" and can move a maximum of 18". If they turn, it counts towards their max movement, but not towards their minimal movement; ie they must always be 3" away from their starting position.

Vehicles with hover have no minimal move distance (they can just stay in place), and vehicles with aerial dancer or whatever its called has no pivot distance.

Snap shots removed. To hit modifiers now. -1 to hit a flyer. AA weapons have a +1 to hit flyers though, so it balances it out.

A flyer may go flat out at 36", but only in a straight line.
This makes them harder to hit, increasing the modifier to hit them at -2

Unlike most vehicles which move flat out, some flyers may still fire. A flyer that could do this has the Strafing Run rule, which permits them to shoot at every enemy it moves over, but the shots suffer a -1 modifier to hit, that gets worse for every 6" the model moves. The idea is that the targets on the ground sees the flyer coming for them, so they run to cover and jump out of the way.

Every race now have some form of air to surface AA. No exceptions.

Trasvi wrote:
There needs to be a better reason to take not just troops, but all infantry on foot. GW has tried to force it in with scoring & objective secured, but there are very few armies that take more than 2 minimum squads of footsloggers if they have any other choice. Gladius shows that you need to give people 500+ points of free transports to consider it!

Ways to do this would be increasing overall durability of infantry, or vastly increasing the points of Elite units. Or making dudes on foot the only models that can truly make full use of cover & giving them the most manoeuvrability compared to other models.

Also:
Kill battle brothers
Only one IC per squad
Get rid of "tactical 6" abilities like D, stomp, etc that completely change the course of a game in a single roll.

If you allow only 1 IC per unit then most ork lists just stopped functioning. Orks have ZERO Invuls in CC so they rely on that 5+ FNP from a Painboy on there T6 Warboss on a Bike to save his life from the incessant AP1-4 CC weapons with high strength.

Don't get me wrong we could fix the codex to negate that change but as it stands that would ruin what little is working in the Ork Dex.

Also I STRONGLY agree with getting rid of Battle Brothers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Don Savik wrote:
I think troops need a reason to be taken but I don't think having them be the only scoring units is it. Troops are a filler unit at the moment, but making them the only scoring unit turns them from filler to most of your army. Say what you want about how armies should be, but nobody likes having 70% of their 1000 dollar army be vanilla infantryman. Boring to model, boring to play.

I want to see snipers be buffed. I want orks to be less random. Orks shouldn't be good at shooting, but I've taken models that literally never hit, making them irrelevant in my army. No model should be like that if you ask me. And its not like its overpowered when they do hit, its the exact same as other armies (sometimes weaker, never stronger).

This, a thousand times this.

Random is ok if when it works its DEVESTATING, but if it is just meh what the hell is the point?

To be fair, the current ork codex needs improvement.