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Some assault units are awesome. This is empirically true. It's just that this Repentia unit is better than anything in my codex. Which makes me sad.

 BBAP wrote:


As an aside... remember when 5th Ed DEldar players took twelve Dark Lances and a bunch of other garbage in their armies, then blamed "bad dice" for the fact they were losing to mech Wolves? BBAP remembers.
.

Entirely irrelervant to the point. Tyler himself would tell you i had him. dice. What can you do. Go ask him yourself.

I assume the credentials of some of my opponents assuages your doubts otherwise


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 BBAP wrote:

I'm not feeling contravened by any of this.

You're just not trying hard enough.


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Martel732 wrote:
Some assault units are awesome. This is empirically true. It's just that this Repentia unit is better than anything in my codex. Which makes me sad.

Lol. here we go...you were doing so well Martel. i was actually perkind up to hear more positives from you and then...dang.

You know if i knew you personally i think I would love to help you with blood angels. Im doing that right now with a new guy, Dennis and he's growing by leaps and bounds. Went to his first tournament which was a GT no less and got two wins which was a huge boost for his confidence. I am hoping he gets to the point I'd wish for you. You clearly LOVE your Blood Angels and desperately want them to be good but that droopy Eyore thing's gotta' go man! You need to invest a little and get some fo the cool toys your faction has now. that Terminator thing was really really cool to see. aI wasnt even aware it was a thing until he dropped it on me. I am definitely going to suggest that to Dennis. You should try it too.

I'm confident when there's a reason to be confident. I can't beat the Repentia straight up, but maybe I can avoid them and wear them down with my own limited shooting.

There is no such hope against scatterbikes or Eldar in general.

Martel732 wrote:
I still hate terminators, even in that formation. I really dislike it because it plays into BA problem #2, that of not being able to beat actual assault lists. Using that terminator formation is basically an auto-loss against Space Wolves, Demons, or a Sisters list like you fielded.

I'm not confident in its ability to simulate a Raptor Talon because terminators are so much more expensive and can engage fewer units as a result. In the best case, you kill three squads of three bikes and the rest get away scot free.

three bike units is a lot. Most Eldar lists come with like 5 at the most (especialy when objectives are a thing you have to go after and dont want to lose your firebase).

Can't have everything all the time but its pretty sweet when you can drop in and ruin an Eldar's day. =)


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Martel732 wrote:
I'm confident when there's a reason to be confident. I can't beat the Repentia straight up, but maybe I can avoid them and wear them down with my own limited shooting.

There is no such hope against scatterbikes or Eldar in general.

Lol. you're just hilarious. Okay. Have it your way. "No hope". Check!

I'm typically against eight bike units. I'm not sure what they're cutting to have eight instead of five. It doesn't seem to matter vs BA. 8 X 3 X 4 = 96 shots. Just crazy time.

The bottom line is that there are just too many viable lists that don't care about deep strike assaulting terminators, which shows just how poorly BA fare at assault.

The entire point of this thread is that people are going to have controversial opinions against the zeigeist.

You're wasting your time trying to shout them down from your position in the conformist meta.

@jancoran

Have you ever tried to run a repeneta deathstar with libby conclave with electrostatic displacement? Allows for turn 1 assault and basically easy to stay stuck in assault all game. If they are as good as you say in that scenario they would be amazing.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm confident when there's a reason to be confident. I can't beat the Repentia straight up, but maybe I can avoid them and wear them down with my own limited shooting.

There is no such hope against scatterbikes or Eldar in general.

I was going to remark on the effect Boon of Flame (conjuration in the new Tzeentch discipline that makes a new S5/AP3 Torrent flamer within 12" of the caster) would have on scatterbikes before I realized I was just describing Heldrakes.

Running through more Codexes looking for the chronically underappreciated the Librarian Dreadnaught has caught my eye. He may be expensive (150pts at ML1), but he's recently gotten a couple of serious buffs (Angels of Death psychic powers and four Attacks base), AV13 front means he's going to laugh off most melee deathstars, unlike most Dreadnaughts he's got several psychic powers that could give him an Invulnerable save, he's got Drop Pods to get him to the fight faster, and the BA formation that lets him attack twice in melee once per game is going to let him leverage his buffs more easily than most. He's easily countered by the appearance of Sisters of Silence or a Culexis, but get him a fight with a non-vehicle/Wraithknight target and he won't disappoint.

(Recommendations for powers: Fulmination is probably his best option (offers shooting, serious mobility, tarpit-wrecking toys, and the chance for a 3++), followed by Sanguiniary (the invul power there only gives him a 5++ but the Primaris is brutal (on average he's putting out six Attacks at I6 under it), Unleash Rage works on units he's not in, and the offensive powers are not shabby at all))

(Just for fun: If a 175pt Librarian Dreadnaught gets a charge on a Wraithknight with Force and Quickening up you have about a 26% chance of killing it at the I6 step before it gets to attack you.)

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The entire point of this thread is that people are going to have controversial opinions against the zeigeist.

You're wasting your time trying to shout them down from your position in the conformist meta.

Fair point.


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 Xenomancers wrote:
@jancoran

Have you ever tried to run a repeneta deathstar with libby conclave with electrostatic displacement? Allows for turn 1 assault and basically easy to stay stuck in assault all game. If they are as good as you say in that scenario they would be amazing.

Interesting idea. Seems a really expensive "vehicle" but if it gets the job done... I'll look into this. I'll also need to look at whether the ITC is modifying those powers. But no, I had not looked into it because i do not play Space Marine armies as a rule. I have one. A large one actually. But i NEVER play it. Too many cool things outside of Mariens, not enough time.

I will ask my Space Marine friends to get me the source material on it.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm typically against eight bike units. I'm not sure what they're cutting to have eight instead of five. It doesn't seem to matter vs BA. 8 X 3 X 4 = 96 shots. Just crazy time.

The bottom line is that there are just too many viable lists that don't care about deep strike assaulting terminators, which shows just how poorly BA fare at assault.

I don't know of any list that'd just up and not care about Assault Terminators charging out of Deep Strike (Riptide spam and DA Black Knight-Overwatch shenanigans are probably the closest to not caring). If Scatterbikes are getting you down you could try out-cheesing them with a Keylek Scorpius (160pts for d3+1 Ignores Cover S8/AP3 small blasts off a 48" Barrage weapon, 13/12/10 3HP chassis)?

I think the Scout-move detachment and Death Company target saturation could be useful, and I'm finding the theoretical buff-stacking shenanigans (Unleash Rage and Death Company Strike Force) that leaves you with seven attacks a model from a charging Death Company unit absurd and hilarious, but I don't know if either is a practical solution. Also the BA are behind the curve on melee weapon pricing, letting VV and Death Company pay vanilla-Codex prices for power weapons/fists/thunderhammers would be a solid step forward.

Space Wolves, Orks and demons eat assault terminators for breakfast. Evidently these Sister things would as well.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
@jancoran

Have you ever tried to run a repeneta deathstar with libby conclave with electrostatic displacement? Allows for turn 1 assault and basically easy to stay stuck in assault all game. If they are as good as you say in that scenario they would be amazing.

Interesting idea. Seems a really expensive "vehicle" but if it gets the job done... I'll look into this. I'll also need to look at whether the ITC is modifying those powers. But no, I had not looked into it because i do not play Space Marine armies as a rule. I have one. A large one actually. But i NEVER play it. Too many cool things outside of Mariens, not enough time.

I will ask my Space Marine friends to get me the source material on it.

This would be a hilarious and wonky thing to try to do; the issue with psychic buffs and Sisters normally is that joining a Librarian to the unit turns off their Acts of Faith, so you'd need to get the Librarian into combat and use Electrodisplacement to get him out and tag the Repentia in. I don't know what your Marine army is but I'd suggest taking a small White Scars CAD rather than using the Librarius formation so you've got the mobility and ablative wounds to get the Librarians into the fight before swapping them out.

I'd like to weigh in on the OP-versus-noobslay argument. Speaking as a guy that played Orks in 5th, *after* people realized that 5th edition ultimately favored mass light mech, my general observation of the army was that running them in a competitive way was fairly restrictive. The Deffrolla FAQ helped them a fair bit, and proper board presence/target saturationcould help protect them from being side-sniped/melta'd before they could negate enemy armor.

The inability to consolidate after assaulting vehicles combined with the ability to flat-out/tank-shock, as well as being able to disembark at cruising speed meant hordes were vulnerable to certain builds like Razorwolves/Immospam...and that's before talking about armies with real CC ability, and No Retreat wounds!

I went to Nova in 2011. I was *not* ready/my army was a wrec/I was new, and I won my first 3 games, and lost game 4 to Mike Hoffman's Orks, making him the only Ork player to make it to the top 16. I ended up dropping out sick the next day.

Originally I intended to use a Bikerboss/more Lootas, but did a last-minute swap for Ghaz. My list was ultimately:

-Ghaz
-KFF Mek
-2 min-strength MAN units, w/ 2 Kombi-Skorchas, and 2 Deffrolla Wagons with Kannon/Big Shoota.
-2 units of 20 Ork Shootaboyz
-A large Grot unit, the Mek hid with them.
-2 Loota units.
-2 Rokkit Buggy squads.
-A Deffkopta squad (originally meant to slingshot a Bikerboss but that didn't take off)
-2 units of KMB Kanz.
-A unit of Kannons with Ammo Runts/Slavers.

In retrospect, had I more practice, better army transports, less "last minute" army construction, and 24-hour energy drinks, I would have been in a far better place to go further.

Nothing about my Ork army screamed "OP", as much as it was an army that brought "2 of everything"/2+1. While this might scream "battleforce", I always found that a mix of units allow multiple threat layers for my army, and let me do "combined arm" maneuvers. My personal favorite trick was using Tank Shock on the Sanguinor to nudge him in assault range of a unit of Killa Kans, which proceeded to lock him out of the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolves, Orks and demons eat assault terminators for breakfast. Evidently these Sister things would as well.

Well you'd only be taking them in small units to tie up strategically important targets. And to score. It's highly affordable from that perspective and in those numbers, i can think of a ton of things that are worse. Like...a ton.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolves, Orks and demons eat assault terminators for breakfast. Evidently these Sister things would as well.

Well you'd only be taking them in small units to tie up strategically important targets. And to score. It's highly affordable from that perspective and in those numbers, i can think of a ton of things that are worse. Like...a ton.

It's still close to 700 pts for this formation. Terminators' overcostedness cripples this concept.

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolves, Orks and demons eat assault terminators for breakfast. Evidently these Sister things would as well.

There are more things in your book than Assault Terminators. I don't know how much I can suggest that'd let you beat Space Wolves in a fight (Wulfen are the OP new hotness, you're running on an early book and haven't had new models for an assault unit in years) but the answer to Orks should be to point Hammernators at the Meganobz and throw Death Company and flamers at everyone else.

Daemons are weird, unpredictable, and shenanigansy at the best of times; the only way to specifically counter them is to ally in some Grey Knights, Sisters of Silence, or a Culexis. Absent that you've just got to play cautiously, be prepared to handle a wide variety of targets, and have ways to surgically get rid of support elements. Charge-from-Deepstrike formations, the Librarian Dreadnaught, Whirlwinds, and random spare cheap Telepathy psykers all help but I can't give concrete recommendations without a clearer idea of what Daemons you're seeing that are eating your Assault Terminators for breakfast.


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Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolves, Orks and demons eat assault terminators for breakfast. Evidently these Sister things would as well.

Well you'd only be taking them in small units to tie up strategically important targets. And to score. It's highly affordable from that perspective and in those numbers, i can think of a ton of things that are worse. Like...a ton.

It's still close to 700 pts for this formation. Terminators' overcostedness cripples this concept.

To my mind the Golden Host is better at the concept. It's 530pts minimum instead of 600, offers rerolls on scatter, automatically arrives turn two, has a good Warlord option so you can build the rest of your army without worrying as much about characters (and lets you get Dante without a CAD), performs similarly against most of the things you'd actually want either formation charging, and can reposition much more quickly once it's on the ground.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The entire point of this thread is that people are going to have controversial opinions against the zeigeist.

You're wasting your time trying to shout them down from your position in the conformist meta.

It's not a question of conformity; it's a question of knives in gunfights. Some units are just not good. Trying to pretend they are not only good, but are actually overpowered, because you've found some combination of HQ characters that makes them slightly better at the single thing they actually do well does is just silly.

 Jancoran wrote:
Entirely irrelervant to the point. Tyler himself would tell you i had him. dice. What can you do. Go ask him yourself.

And so we come to it. "What can you do?", he asked. "Drop the shoddy combat units and take more Meltaguns", BBAP replied.

Alas, BBAP was ignored.

I assume the credentials of some of my opponents assuages your doubts otherwise

The reason I was interested in the pedigree of your opponents is because you were trying to tell me this unit had competitive pedigree. You eventually provided details, whereupon it transpired that you'd beaten a bunch of sub-par armies and then lost to the only two ranked opponents you faced.

So, y'know... no it doesn't.

 BBAP wrote:
...Alas, BBAP was ignored...

If only.

No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau. That's without defensive grenades being factored in, with it, you only get 4.28 attacks, netting only 2.37 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, forgetting defensive grenades, AND not taking the SMS turret option and you lost all all but 2.14. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

That's also without any other ICs attached because at that point, a fireblade and/or darkstrider or even an ethereal makes the fight even harder for you (darkstrider giving the Reps -1T, making the pulse rifles ID the Reps preventing FNP when the FWs shoot at them in the shooting phase, and lets them run D6 after firing overwatch, fireblade giving an extra shot if they don't move, and ethereal lets them snap shot after running or an extra shot at half range)

Are Fire Warriors OP?

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, and you lost all all but 2, and then proceed to lose combat next turn probably. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

Jacobus improves it to a 5+.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, and you lost all all but 2, and then proceed to lose combat next turn probably. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

Jacobus improves it to a 5+.

Ahh, that makes sense, I counted it as a 5+ anyways though. With a 6++ they take 8.33 wounds from the shooting attack, and 0.92 from overwatch. Melee attacks obviously then finish them off regardless of who survives to make it into CC

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Something something black kettles.

OT, I always enjoy my Great Unclean One. Deepstriking in next to a a squad of Plaguebearers with a banner is sweet, plus at Mastery Level 3, Toughness 7 he's tough as nails. The only thing I've lost him to so far has been a Stomp from a Knight.

 jreilly89 wrote:
OT, I always enjoy my Great Unclean One. Deepstriking in next to a a squad of Plaguebearers with a banner is sweet, plus at Mastery Level 3, Toughness 7 he's tough as nails. The only thing I've lost him to so far has been a Stomp from a Knight.

I suspect a Librarian Dreadnaught could take him (Martel, take note. You have a powerful melee unit.)

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau. That's without defensive grenades being factored in, with it, you only get 4.28 attacks, netting only 2.37 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, forgetting defensive grenades, AND not taking the SMS turret option and you lost all all but 2.14. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

That's also without any other ICs attached because at that point, a fireblade and/or darkstrider or even an ethereal makes the fight even harder for you (darkstrider giving the Reps -1T, making the pulse rifles ID the Reps preventing FNP when the FWs shoot at them in the shooting phase, and lets them run D6 after firing overwatch, fireblade giving an extra shot if they don't move, and ethereal lets them snap shot after running or an extra shot at half range)

Are Fire Warriors OP?

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

In tournamwent play, objectives are a thing. You cannot simply stay where you are and fire. I'm sorry but you just cant. the missions don't allow it. I understand that in THEORY, every single thing with stats can be destroyed. Of course it can. in practice, rounds 3-6 are going to be bloody and possibly sooner. I really cant imagine an enemy who has the luxury of standing where they are anf firing, and ignoring all the points im scoring. it just doesnt happen.

This goes back to the assertion that I am just going to go walk them in front of a firing line. No. I'm likely to be doing a lot of things to make it difficult. such as...killing the enemy with Heavy Flamers before I arrive or what have you. who knows. the Repentia arent the entire army. So.

And 6 is correct. its the drone that makes it better.

 Jancoran wrote:


Thank you for the compliment. You like the blog eh?

I'm a fan. I've got your page in my favourites and check up now and again

 Jancoran wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau. That's without defensive grenades being factored in, with it, you only get 4.28 attacks, netting only 2.37 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, forgetting defensive grenades, AND not taking the SMS turret option and you lost all all but 2.14. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

That's also without any other ICs attached because at that point, a fireblade and/or darkstrider or even an ethereal makes the fight even harder for you (darkstrider giving the Reps -1T, making the pulse rifles ID the Reps preventing FNP when the FWs shoot at them in the shooting phase, and lets them run D6 after firing overwatch, fireblade giving an extra shot if they don't move, and ethereal lets them snap shot after running or an extra shot at half range)

Are Fire Warriors OP?

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

In tournamwent play, objectives are a thing. You cannot simply stay where you are and fire. I'm sorry but you just cant. the missions don't allow it. I understand that in THEORY, every single thing with stats can be destroyed. Of course it can. in practice, rounds 3-6 are going to be bloody and possibly sooner. I really cant imagine an enemy who has the luxury of standing where they are anf firing, and ignoring all the points im scoring. it just doesnt happen.

This goes back to the assertion that I am just going to go walk them in front of a firing line. No. I'm likely to be doing a lot of things to make it difficult. such as...killing the enemy with Heavy Flamers before I arrive or what have you. who knows. the Repentia arent the entire army. So.

And 6 is correct. its the drone that makes it better.

I didn't say they were standing still. They moved TOWARD you. This wasn't a multi turn slugfest between them, it was ONE turn of shooting after your rhino was wrecked/they jumped out, and in a best case scenario in YOUR favor. But if we bring in the rest of the army, supporting fire (during overwatch) wipes up the unit. And once their Rhino is dead, what ARE they going to do? Foot slog it across the board? Try and run from cover to cover? Either way they're moving slower and are MUCH easier to kill now.

Want a realistic scenario? We both advance towards an objective, broadside squad fires and murders your rhino, reps pop out behind it, move and run a total of 12", then proceed to get shot to bits by said fire warriors squad.
As for anything getting close, Riptides/Interceptor takes care of those fairly easily.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
2+1

Dem 5th-ed feels. They're coming back again.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
OT, I always enjoy my Great Unclean One. Deepstriking in next to a a squad of Plaguebearers with a banner is sweet, plus at Mastery Level 3, Toughness 7 he's tough as nails. The only thing I've lost him to so far has been a Stomp from a Knight.

I suspect a Librarian Dreadnaught could take him (Martel, take note. You have a powerful melee unit.)

Actually, I fear GKs more. Fething Instant Death everywhere

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know.

That'd be more convincing if you hadn't asked me for it like, 6 replies ago. Senpai has noticed you. He thinks your unit is a noobhammer.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
...Alas, BBAP was ignored...

If only.

Block button's right there, Mr Math-hammer. I think blocks are recpirocal, so if you block me I don't have to read any more of your exciting duels against boltgun Tactical Squads. Win-win.