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 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No one needs your approval. No one. So y;know. Your arrogance on this is crazy.

Unit of 12 fire warriors vs your Crazy OP unit:

You have first turn, and start 30" away. Move 6, run a lucky 6, you're now 18" away. Fire warrios move 3" for rapid fire range, and fire 24 shots, half hit, 10 wound, 1/3 are saved killing 6.66. Next turn, Repentias charge, and take another .59 dead from overwatch. 2.74 are left standing, melee comes around, Tau get another .66 wounds in CC leaving 2.14 Reps left alive, who then deal 8.56 wounds, 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound for... 4.75 dead tau. That's without defensive grenades being factored in, with it, you only get 4.28 attacks, netting only 2.37 dead tau.

Your best case scenario with you having an extra 47pts on the tau player, moving first, running 6", tau player moving TOWARDS you, forgetting defensive grenades, AND not taking the SMS turret option and you lost all all but 2.14. If the Tau player has equal points, you're wiped out before you even get to attack in the assault phase.

That's also without any other ICs attached because at that point, a fireblade and/or darkstrider or even an ethereal makes the fight even harder for you (darkstrider giving the Reps -1T, making the pulse rifles ID the Reps preventing FNP when the FWs shoot at them in the shooting phase, and lets them run D6 after firing overwatch, fireblade giving an extra shot if they don't move, and ethereal lets them snap shot after running or an extra shot at half range)

Are Fire Warriors OP?

(Also, maybe battlescribe is wrong, but it states shield of faith is only a 6+)

In tournamwent play, objectives are a thing. You cannot simply stay where you are and fire. I'm sorry but you just cant. the missions don't allow it. I understand that in THEORY, every single thing with stats can be destroyed. Of course it can. in practice, rounds 3-6 are going to be bloody and possibly sooner. I really cant imagine an enemy who has the luxury of standing where they are anf firing, and ignoring all the points im scoring. it just doesnt happen.

This goes back to the assertion that I am just going to go walk them in front of a firing line. No. I'm likely to be doing a lot of things to make it difficult. such as...killing the enemy with Heavy Flamers before I arrive or what have you. who knows. the Repentia arent the entire army. So.

And 6 is correct. its the drone that makes it better.

I didn't say they were standing still. They moved TOWARD you. This wasn't a multi turn slugfest between them, it was ONE turn of shooting after your rhino was wrecked/they jumped out, and in a best case scenario in YOUR favor. But if we bring in the rest of the army, supporting fire (during overwatch) wipes up the unit. And once their Rhino is dead, what ARE they going to do? Foot slog it across the board? Try and run from cover to cover? Either way they're moving slower and are MUCH easier to kill now.

Want a realistic scenario? We both advance towards an objective, broadside squad fires and murders your rhino, reps pop out behind it, move and run a total of 12", then proceed to get shot to bits by said fire warriors squad.
As for anything getting close, Riptides/Interceptor takes care of those fairly easily.

I appreciate the theoryhammer. i do. i myself play Tau. im well versed. But you really are selling things short. Dominion and Exorcists are more than happy for you to become singleminded about proving this unit wrong. But like i said, anything with stats can be killed. Prioirty is a real thing. If they choose to go after the Repentias and all that cool. If thet can see me somwhow, surprising but cool. Maybe a riptide could try.

The points I spent to kill your unit are still less than what you spent on it, and leave plenty of units around to fight the rest of your army.

But yes, if the Reps are completely ignored and unharmed by any attack, they can do damage. But assuming nothing will be able to wreck/explode a rhino, or fire a couple shots their way is silly, along with striking last in CC, and their obvious weakness to S6+, which happens to be the current flavor of the game.

 BBAP wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
2+1

Dem 5th-ed feels. They're coming back again.

I do somewhat miss the way 5th played, how it was mostly a game about "midfield control" and how it was ultimately a game that was about more defensive play, while still allowing for some unique non-mechanized armies to shine, be it Loganwing or the old Blood Rodeo. Of those old builds, only the Biker armies have come through it all the stronger. While I imagine you "could" design a modern-day Rodeo through some formation shenanigans with Daemonkin, it just wouldn't be the same.

Anyway, I guess what I was getting at was that Orks could very easily be a noobslayer back in the day, but I felt there was more viability to them than many gave them credit for, even if they were forced to take increasingly extreme compromises to squeeze in as much antitank as they could.

Other than that, my view is that OP is pretty much about finding a good "kill/cost" ratio, accounting for range/mobility/survivability of course (yes, a Vindicator is a cheap S10 pieplate. How often does it work?), and there are very few units in 40k we don't already know about that do that.

That being said, the GSC Goliath is fun in a Demolition Claw. 50 points for a open-topped transport with a TL Autocannon, Tank Hunters, and Infiltrate, and I only have to take two Demolition Charges as my tax? (You'll want Acolytes anyway, and 80 points is a good cost for a non-fast Hellhound in my book, especially when it also gets a tank-hunter pseudo-Deffrolla) I accept.

 BBAP wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The entire point of this thread is that people are going to have controversial opinions against the zeigeist.

You're wasting your time trying to shout them down from your position in the conformist meta.

It's not a question of conformity;

 BBAP wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 BBAP wrote:
...Alas, BBAP was ignored...

If only.

Block button's right there, Mr Math-hammer. I think blocks are recpirocal, so if you block me I don't have to read any more of your exciting duels against boltgun Tactical Squads. Win-win.

Apparently I was being too subtle.

Jancoran, you don't have to respond to BBAP.

BBAP, you don't have to respond to Jancoran.

The feedback loop is getting progressively angrier and if one or both of you chooses to break out of it sooner rather than later I suspect you'll have a happier time for it.

I've been a huge fan of deathmarks with a destroyerlord in them. deepstrike them and shoot away with 2+ re-roll to wound for a turn.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
@jancoran

Have you ever tried to run a repeneta deathstar with libby conclave with electrostatic displacement? Allows for turn 1 assault and basically easy to stay stuck in assault all game. If they are as good as you say in that scenario they would be amazing.

Interesting idea. Seems a really expensive "vehicle" but if it gets the job done... I'll look into this. I'll also need to look at whether the ITC is modifying those powers. But no, I had not looked into it because i do not play Space Marine armies as a rule. I have one. A large one actually. But i NEVER play it. Too many cool things outside of Mariens, not enough time.

I will ask my Space Marine friends to get me the source material on it.

This would be a hilarious and wonky thing to try to do; the issue with psychic buffs and Sisters normally is that joining a Librarian to the unit turns off their Acts of Faith, so you'd need to get the Librarian into combat and use Electrodisplacement to get him out and tag the Repentia in. I don't know what your Marine army is but I'd suggest taking a small White Scars CAD rather than using the Librarius formation so you've got the mobility and ablative wounds to get the Librarians into the fight before swapping them out.

Frankly I dont know what my space Marien army is either. It was the remnants of a Blood Angels army that had Space Wolves added to it later, and then a very large group of Scouts entered the party and some traded fro tanks I've never used... Im about ot acquire a Land raider for no apparent reason as well. I have stuff I dont need. he has stuff he doesnt need. Why not.

White Scars are really the best faction for the kind of shenanigans this is talking about though. Makes sense. White Scars do have an achilles heel called the Inquisitor with three Servo Skulls and i play with people fully willing to spend those 34 points, just because we all know we might play Todd Johannsen. But many do not use this excellent ally and so...

Out of curiosity, have any Land Raider variants made an appearance in this thread?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Out of curiosity, have any Land Raider variants made an appearance in this thread?

Not that I'm aware of?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolfblade wrote:

I didn't say they were standing still. They moved TOWARD you. This wasn't a multi turn slugfest between them, it was ONE turn of shooting after your rhino was wrecked/they jumped out, and in a best case scenario in YOUR favor. But if we bring in the rest of the army, supporting fire (during overwatch) wipes up the unit. And once their Rhino is dead, what ARE they going to do? Foot slog it across the board? Try and run from cover to cover? Either way they're moving slower and are MUCH easier to kill now.

Want a realistic scenario? We both advance towards an objective, broadside squad fires and murders your rhino, reps pop out behind it, move and run a total of 12", then proceed to get shot to bits by said fire warriors squad.
As for anything getting close, Riptides/Interceptor takes care of those fairly easily.

I'm lost on where interceptor helps?

Aside from that, if you want to theory hammer it up maybe I can meet you on VASSAL at some point and just plop it down on a real board with some domino terrain and some tree stands or what not. Six pieces of decent terrain and away we go. Visuals are way better than this. Maybe Ill work on one and PM it.

Interceptor helps vs any deepstriking/reserves that would possibly get any heavy/special weapons close that would otherwise avoid fire.

Also, in this 1v1 scenario it's ALREADY been done. One round of shooting is all it took for the fire warriors to win, even assuming you are it into CC the next turn (needing a 9" charge). Once an ethereal and darkstrider are added to get closer to the point value of your Rep + IC squad, catching them is a pain, being able to run + snap fire, and then run another D6 after they fire over watch. And that's still cheaper than your squad at 258points, meaning there would be another ~11 fire warriors. Theory hammer says your squad loses in both mobility, and damage potential to a cheaper unit.

An OP unit does not require everything going in their favor to be good.

 Jancoran wrote:

I don't mind playing in vassal btw.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Out of curiosity, have any Land Raider variants made an appearance in this thread?

I don't know that any of them are particularly OP. If any is it's probably the Achilles-Alpha out of 30k with a dozer blade-equivalent, immunity to lance/melta and -1 to vehicle damage table rolls, and a quad mortar that can amongst other things pack Phosphex shells (3+ poison/AP3) and S8 shells that reroll failed armour pen rolls.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I felt there was more viability to them than many gave them credit for, even if they were forced to take increasingly extreme compromises to squeeze in as much antitank as they could.

For my money that was both true and not at the same time.

I dabbled in Orks rather than "played" them so I might be missing something, but from where I was sitting (across the table from Ork armies) it looked to me like the Ork Codex was all about quantity rather than quality. The book wasn't costed for balanced armies - you **could** build one, but it required quantity to be sacrificed and the quality you got in exchange wasn't fantastic. Plus most of their anti-tank seemed to involve close combat and Deffrollaz, so you could shut down 60% of it by blowing up the Trukks, another 20% by sacrificing a couple of your hulls to slow down the Boyz and Deffrollaz, and the last 20% (Lootaz, Kannons, KMB Kans) would often sabotage itself due to low BS. The rest of the lists you built from the book were either fluffy armies or noobhammers.

Other than that, my view is that OP is pretty much about finding a good "kill/cost" ratio, accounting for range/mobility/survivability of course (yes, a Vindicator is a cheap S10 pieplate. How often does it work?), and there are very few units in 40k we don't already know about that do that.

This, all day long.

Death of Kasyr Lutien on a CSM Rhino? 50pts, park it in your backfield out of enemy line of sight and any friendly psyker attempting to use Malefic powers within 12" of it gets to reroll up to three dice.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The entire point of this thread is that people are going to have controversial opinions against the zeigeist.

You're wasting your time trying to shout them down from your position in the conformist meta.

It's not a question of conformity;

Yes. Yes it is. Did you miss the thread title? That's entirely the point of this thread.

The title of this thread is "What is an op unit in your codex that nobody knows is op?"

Unless we're interpreting "OP" as "whatever gak-ass unit you whup noobs with" then there are objective answers to that question against which people's opinions can be weighed. When said opinions turn out to be stupid with respect to reality, it's fine to say that. When someone disagrees, it's fine to ask for evidence, and when the provided evidence is deficient it's okay to say that too.

Frankly I think your problem is less about me pushing conformity, more that someone "insulted" your little internet-friend by questioning his opinion on a particular unit. Don't do that. Your little friend isn't being a snowflake about this, don't be one on his behalf.

The Stormsword.
Whilst not technically a part of my codex, the Stormsword has the potential to be utterly god like when facing down enemy Infantry heavy armies.

My favourite trick is to take an Enginseer with two or three Servitors and a couple of Transport poppers(like Leman Russ Exterminator squadrons).
The Leman Russ pop the Transports and then the Stormsword drops a S10 AP1 10" plate on them, whilst the Enginseer keeps it alive.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Stormsword.
Whilst not technically a part of my codex, the Stormsword has the potential to be utterly god like when facing down enemy Infantry heavy armies.

My favourite trick is to take an Enginseer with two or three Servitors and a couple of Transport poppers(like Leman Russ Exterminator squadrons).
The Leman Russ pop the Transports and then the Stormsword drops a S10 AP1 10" plate on them, whilst the Enginseer keeps it alive.

Even though I see it rarely, I'm acutely aware of the Stormsword. However, it sucks against MCs, especially FMCs. This is a cardinal sin of 7th ed. There's just cheaper way to deal with infantry.

 Wolfblade wrote:
Interceptor helps vs any deepstriking/reserves that would possibly get any heavy/special weapons close that would otherwise avoid fire.

Also, in this 1v1 scenario it's ALREADY been done. One round of shooting is all it took for the fire warriors to win, even assuming you are it into CC the next turn (needing a 9" charge). Once an ethereal and darkstrider are added to get closer to the point value of your Rep + IC squad, catching them is a pain, being able to run + snap fire, and then run another D6 after they fire over watch. And that's still cheaper than your squad at 258points, meaning there would be another ~11 fire warriors. Theory hammer says your squad loses in both mobility, and damage potential to a cheaper unit.

This is all true - but again, it's math-hammer. This scenario might not occur on the board, and even if it did I don't think "making your points back" is a valid concept.

An example to try and explain why I feel this way. My GSC have 3 ML2 Patriarchs. That's nearly 400 points wrapped up in three T5 4+ models. Last game I played, they killed nothing. Not a thing. Didn't even make a single charge the whole game. They didn't "make their points back", so they must suck, right?

Well no. One of them kept a unit of Neophytes fighting a deathstar for two turns and forced it to HnR into a bunch of Morphs, whereas the other two sat in corners, preventing broken units running off the table and providing dice to Summon more Morphs and deny Lightning Arc repeatedly. For reference, Lightning Arc murders my army because they're a bunch of T3 5+ dudes who struggle to avoid being within 6" of one another because they're Infantry and need to support each others' assaults. Kind of like how Repentia can't avoid being within 6" of Dominions or their transports if you're using the one to shield the other, but I digress.

Another example - if Father Uriah's Hammer of Noobs charges a Knight, or a Stormsurge, or whatever, it **will** kill them, and in doing so it's made back its points. Must be OP, right?

Well no. The thing is, this unit will never, ever, ever in a million years reach a Knight or Stormsurge that the opponent doesn't feed it. It will never charge **anything** the opponent doesn't leave lying around for it. It is a Fleet Infantry unit, with the inherent lack of mobility that designation brings.

It can't charge things I don't want it to. Can't do it. "But but but Rhino..." - doesn't matter. Can't do it. Can't move more than 6" a turn and assault, can't jump over obstacles during any movement, can't ignore terrain - can't do it. You simply cannot get around that lack of mobility no matter how hardy they are in CC, how much stupid wargear you add, how many models you add - you can't do it.. "But muh Repentia killed [xyz] in {game]!" - did the opponent give a gak if he lost [xyz]? If "yes", then your opponent failed by feeding it to the Repentia. If "no", then you were permitted to kill something your opponent considered irrelevant enough to sacrifice. That's not a useful contribution.

***That's*** why this unit is a noobhammer. Your opponent has to actively gift it with opportunities in order for it to affect the game, and if he doesn't it's easy enough to deal with because it's Chainfist Guardsmen.

An OP unit does not require everything going in their favor to be good.

+1

More accurately, situations are always in the favor of an OP unit, even when they shouldn't be. There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage. Because even if you murder it, you spent so many points to do that that you probably lost the game in the process.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Stormsword.
Whilst not technically a part of my codex, the Stormsword has the potential to be utterly god like when facing down enemy Infantry heavy armies.

My favourite trick is to take an Enginseer with two or three Servitors and a couple of Transport poppers(like Leman Russ Exterminator squadrons).
The Leman Russ pop the Transports and then the Stormsword drops a S10 AP1 10" plate on them, whilst the Enginseer keeps it alive.

Even though I see it rarely, I'm acutely aware of the Stormsword. However, it sucks against MCs, especially FMCs. This is a cardinal sin of 7th ed. There's just cheaper way to deal with infantry.

Thankfully I a can avoid Eldar/Tau/'Nids players, even if it means playing Timmy :/
Actually, this combination is the very same one that I used against him in a big 3K game we had a few weeks back. Even with his cheating he was massacred

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Stormsword.
Whilst not technically a part of my codex, the Stormsword has the potential to be utterly god like when facing down enemy Infantry heavy armies.

My favourite trick is to take an Enginseer with two or three Servitors and a couple of Transport poppers(like Leman Russ Exterminator squadrons).
The Leman Russ pop the Transports and then the Stormsword drops a S10 AP1 10" plate on them, whilst the Enginseer keeps it alive.

As an addendum to this the Stormlord. 450pts, park Loth behind it and you can make your entire gunline invisible at once, and you've got thirty twin-linked S6/AP3 shots a turn to back them up. Fill it with Centurion Devastators, heavy weapon squads, and a counter-charge unit, and explode everything.

"Thankfully I a can avoid Eldar/Tau/'Nids players"

That doesn't help the rest of us. Making the Stormsword decidedly NOT OP.

Invis + anything dangerous = automatically OP. Because invis. This is trivially true.

BBAP wrote:I dabbled in Orks rather than "played" them so I might be missing something, but from where I was sitting (across the table from Ork armies) it looked to me like the Ork Codex was all about quantity rather than quality. The book wasn't costed for balanced armies - you **could** build one, but it required quantity to be sacrificed and the quality you got in exchange wasn't fantastic. Plus most of their anti-tank seemed to involve close combat and Deffrollaz, so you could shut down 60% of it by blowing up the Trukks, another 20% by sacrificing a couple of your hulls to slow down the Boyz and Deffrollaz, and the last 20% (Lootaz, Kannons, KMB Kans) would often sabotage itself due to low BS. The rest of the lists you built from the book were either fluffy armies or noobhammers.

I found the reason Lootas and Kannons worked in 5th was that they were cheap for what they did, didn't face heavy slot saturation, and most anti-infantry in the game was short-range (a notable exception when DE venom spam first came out, but I found using Wagons as mobile LOS-blockers helped a lot). I could use my Boss to make a Meganob unit Troops, and then still be able to take a second MAN unit while being able to take 2 Loota units. Kans had bad BS, but they kept firing on the move, and could lock down an area, and were cheap for their melee prowess.

The other underrated unit of the time was the Ork Warbuggy, but that was simply because HP didn't exist, and 5th used "50% cover" meaning I only needed one Buggy to hang near the KFF field. I found they were useful as sacrificial road-blockers/helped me hem in enemy movement while the Wagons got to work.

Martel732 wrote:
...There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage...

The only cost-effective ways I know of to kill it (Skitarii Vanguard with a cast of Misfortune on the Wraithknight, Grav-Centurions, Wraithguard) are fairly OP themselves. Draigo comes close to doing it if he gets Hammerhand and Force off, in theory, and there are a few Greater Daemons that could make a good show of it.

That's why I said almost.

Martel732 wrote:
More accurately, situations are always in the favor of an OP unit, even when they shouldn't be. There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage. Because even if you murder it, you spent so many points to do that that you probably lost the game in the process.

What kind of army are you running that you can't spare a few Meltaguns to strip wounds off a Wraithknight every turn without screwing yourself over? They're also at a serious disadvantage in combat against Fearless infantry with 10 models or more; they'll get out of combat on their own eventually, but not before it's cost them a turn of shooting and moving.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Kans had bad BS, but they kept firing on the move, and could lock down an area, and were cheap for their melee prowess.

They were alright, but they suffered the same issue any vehicle had; Meltaguns released their control over an area real quick, and everyone had lots of those everywhere.

Martel732 wrote:
"Thankfully I a can avoid Eldar/Tau/'Nids players"

That doesn't help the rest of us. Making the Stormsword decided NOT OP.

Invis + anything dangerous = automatically OP. Because invis. This is trivially true.

Indeed. The point of the Stormlord is that its 'anything dangerous' parameter as a single target is dramatically higher than most things, unless you know of another unit that can put out thirty S6/AP3 shots as well as twenty extra heavy weapons' worth of bullets from one model.

Speaking of Loth he's actually staggeringly OP (175pts for a ML3 Librarian who gets to pick his powers off Biomancy, Telepathy, or Divination and can burn a single Warp Charge for a 2++, no roll or chance of failure), but people aren't really aware of him because he's an obscure Forge World character and he's fallen out of favour in munchkin lists this edition because he isn't allowed in any formations.

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
More accurately, situations are always in the favor of an OP unit, even when they shouldn't be. There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage. Because even if you murder it, you spent so many points to do that that you probably lost the game in the process.

What kind of army are you running that you can't spare a few Meltaguns to strip wounds off a Wraithknight every turn without screwing yourself over? They're also at a serious disadvantage in combat against Fearless infantry with 10 models or more; they'll get out of combat on their own eventually, but not before it's cost them a turn of shooting and moving.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Kans had bad BS, but they kept firing on the move, and could lock down an area, and were cheap for their melee prowess.

They were alright, but they suffered the same issue any vehicle had; Meltaguns released their control over an area real quick, and everyone had lots of those everywhere.

Have you played against WK in context of an entire Eldar list? I'm assuming yes, so you know the answer to your own question.

Martel732 wrote:
That's why I said almost.

It does actually give rise to a semi-strong proof of OPness. If you've got a unit that can cost-effectively and/or trivially get rid of a unit that's already OP it's likely to be OP itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
More accurately, situations are always in the favor of an OP unit, even when they shouldn't be. There is almost no way to get a 295 pt WK at a disadvantage. Because even if you murder it, you spent so many points to do that that you probably lost the game in the process.

What kind of army are you running that you can't spare a few Meltaguns to strip wounds off a Wraithknight every turn without screwing yourself over? They're also at a serious disadvantage in combat against Fearless infantry with 10 models or more; they'll get out of combat on their own eventually, but not before it's cost them a turn of shooting and moving.

I invite you to go read the 'Stomp' rules. You may find it answers your question.

I haven't played against Wraithknights but I've fielded them myself and I can tell you that every time mine hits the table it trivially steamrolls anything in its way. The only thing I've ever had kill it was grav-centurions, the only thing I've ever seen slow it down was a Necron Wraith deathstar.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's why I said almost.

It does actually give rise to a semi-strong proof of OPness. If you've got a unit that can cost-effectively and/or trivially get rid of a unit that's already OP it's likely to be OP itself.

A related concept: OP units also bench many other units, just as the WK benches Land Raiders. The Land Raider has other problems, but ignoring AV at range is crazy strong.

As for the WK, good luck catching it with your fearless infantry. At least those that survive the scatterlasers.