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 Ashiraya wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:


The RPG stats are just as canon and by their metric attacks that would be S3 on the tabletop are completely useless.

Eh? It's a frequent complaint about the RPGs that even a simple thrown rock can hurt a Space Marine, due to how Righteous Fury works.

Autoguns are effective against marines in the RPGs. Not very effective, but they can hurt them.

Autoguns cannot harm them in my experience (they and lasguns have what, 1d10+3 damage and 0 pen, against a Marine who will have a toughness bonus of at least 8 and often higher, as well as a minimum of 7 armor depending on hit location, armor type, and edition).

As was said, RF requires fate points and attacks that normally cannot hurt a target only does 1 damage with RF.

A normal lasgun can be overloaded to do 2 more damage and gain 2 AP, the Triplex pattern lasgun can ignore all of an SM unnatural toughness if fired in the right mode, or be an accurate weapon that deals extra damage. In both case they'll do an actual point of damage on an 10, so meh, but you're pretty much a talent away from being able to do 2-3 damage.

 jmurph wrote:
So in this scenario a bio-engineered supersoldier with advanced infantry power armor and weaponry has entered a modern civilian area and has noticed, and is now pursuing, and individual.

In that fiction, thoughts of "shoot him" guarantee death. You are going one on one with a superior force that is specifically outfitted for direct conflict. Tactical failure.

Fleeing is probably the only viable option. Unconventional force may work. The car ramming, deploying to inaccessible areas, etc. *may* work. However, they may just get you dead. With superhuman reflexes, the SM may just step out of the roadway and shoot you as you drive, etc. Realistically, if the SM has noticed the target, any potential advantage is gone and it's now a question of possible survival, not victory.

However, given this would be a highly unusual fictional scenario, perhaps the targeted individual is targeted for a reason. Maybe they are a latent psyker, can act as a daemonhost, or the SM desires to capture, not slay, the target.

Unlike a modern human, a 40k Space Marine is mentally deficient. Child-like IQ, at best. Dumb as rocks. Plus, stat-wise, they are slow as molasses. Their weapons have pitiful range, like early blackpowder. If the SM is not right on top of you, he is easily outrun, and outmaneuvered. Modern weapons have vastly higher ROF and range. That SM will NEVER get close enough to an alert person to present any threat. For all intents and purposes, a SM is a zombie walker with a somewhat larger threat radius.

Like any red-blooded American, I would use unbridled and overwhelming firepower. In the words of the greatest American hero that ever lived, Arnold Schwarzenegger, during the alien scout incursion of 1987, "If it bleeds, we can kill it."

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 jmurph wrote:
So in this scenario a bio-engineered supersoldier with advanced infantry power armor and weaponry has entered a modern civilian area and has noticed, and is now pursuing, and individual.

In that fiction, thoughts of "shoot him" guarantee death. You are going one on one with a superior force that is specifically outfitted for direct conflict. Tactical failure.

Fleeing is probably the only viable option. Unconventional force may work. The car ramming, deploying to inaccessible areas, etc. *may* work. However, they may just get you dead. With superhuman reflexes, the SM may just step out of the roadway and shoot you as you drive, etc. Realistically, if the SM has noticed the target, any potential advantage is gone and it's now a question of possible survival, not victory.

However, given this would be a highly unusual fictional scenario, perhaps the targeted individual is targeted for a reason. Maybe they are a latent psyker, can act as a daemonhost, or the SM desires to capture, not slay, the target.

Unlike a modern human, a 40k Space Marine is mentally deficient. Child-like IQ, at best. Dumb as rocks. Plus, stat-wise, they are slow as molasses. Their weapons have pitiful range, like early blackpowder. If the SM is not right on top of you, he is easily outrun, and outmaneuvered. Modern weapons have vastly higher ROF and range. That SM will NEVER get close enough to an alert person to present any threat. For all intents and purposes, a SM is a zombie walker with a somewhat larger threat radius.

Never played the RPGs, I take it?

40k rulebooks & Codices, only. Also, the video games. SMs are meatheads, one and all.

Funnily, the RPGs are canon too, and they have higher Int than humans.

IOW, newp.

I can imagine you'd continue to call them stupid until a 80 agility Raven Guard sneaks into your house and oneshots you with a stalker bolter, with his talents and traits making it hit like a multimelta.

I though PCs were not a good representation of factions...

The redshirt CSM in Deathwatch could still kill dozens of guardsmen with absolutely no issues. (Chainsword with 1d10+13 damage at pen 3 )

+11

Chainaxes are +13, tsk tsk. Regardless, they both die to a single lascannon team, win some lose some I guess.

Edit: Multimeltas are kinda wimpy now that I look at them, they do about 6 more damage than a multilaser and have some more pen, but the ml fires 5 shots per turn. My stormtrooper could survive an average hit of the MM (and from Ash dude Stalker, apparently, fancy that...)

The RPG stuff has to be taken in context too. Deathwatch for example is to Space Marines what "300" is to the actual battle of Thermopalye, with handheld bolters more powerful than Dark Heresy vehickr mounted heavy bolters, and characters that can literally be shot directly in the naked face and sustain 0 damage.

One of my Black Crusade players got a Raptor Character up to the point where he over-killed a Necron Tomb Stalker in a single powerfist attack. The RPG's are great resources but perfect reflections either.

If I recall In the 2nd Ed wargear book power armour was described in the fluff as being 50% to 85% proof to small arms.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The RPG's are great resources but perfect reflections either.

It is as perfect as we are going to get on a tabletop.

Meh, some good some bad, probably like the TT game, better than BL books, at least.

It is better than the model game due to superior granularity, but obviously the books are better still as they are even more granular (so to speak) and do not have to obey any kind of game balancing at all.

TIL C.S. Goto was right about Multi-Lazors...

And Guardsmen, upon promotion to Major, suddenly can absorb two heavy bolter shots to the bare face and fight on as if nothing had happened, where their men are reduced to mush from just one.

You have to look at it in context. No platform is flawless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySJ1Z5o8y5w

At my cabin, I'd stand a chance. Good luck catching me on my cross-countries skiis in 4ft of snow while trudging around in power armour. I'd then just call it a draw by remaining out of gunshot my entire life. Alternatively, Norway has the tenth most guns per capita in the world - moose hunting rifle should do the trick. If it can drop a half ton animal, it can drop a Space Marine, though I'd wait 'til he's sleeping.

 Ashiraya wrote:
And Guardsmen, upon promotion to Major, suddenly can absorb two heavy bolter shots to the bare face and fight on as if nothing had happened, where their men are reduced to mush from just one.

You have to look at it in context. No platform is flawless.

Yes, and the RPG allows Guardsmen to eventually take a multimelta shot and walk away with a burned off ear, at worst. And that's with rolling 2 10's.

 Bobthehero wrote:


Yes, and the RPG allows Guardsmen to eventually take a multimelta shot and walk away with a burned off ear, at worst. And that's with rolling 2 10's.

Bolters, plasma guns and melta weapons were all underpowered in Dark Heresy v1 at least.

Laugh maniacally as the poor sod becomes victim of real life physics then I'd throw butter knives at it till it fails a save.

A sharpened wooden stick.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:


Yes, and the RPG allows Guardsmen to eventually take a multimelta shot and walk away with a burned off ear, at worst. And that's with rolling 2 10's.

Bolters, plasma guns and melta weapons were all underpowered in Dark Heresy v1 at least.

They still are, a heavy bolter needs to hit a guardsman in the head and roll a 10 for damage in order to kill the guardsman outright if you use the critical wounds table for NPC's.

If we take all the lore in to account, as well as all the resources available to us, along with common sense, we can come to the conclusion that.....

Imperial Guardsman = Human
Our weapons are 39,000 years more primitive than theirs.

Their weapons might be able to kill a Space Marine if they're really lucky.

Their weapons can 'probably' kill Orks.

Orks slaughter Guardsmen in large numbers regularly.

One Space Marine can single handedly stop an Ork Warband.

A Space Marine can survive multiple Rokkits to the face. They might scratch and dent his armour if they hit him.

Space Marines have advanced radars and tracking that help them avoid missiles (if they want to avoid the missile)

Space Marines can shoot the missile because of their enhanced targeting.

A Space Marine Bolt is a missile. It can destroy another missile in flight.

Taking all of this in to account....

A modern day Nuclear Strike might probably have a 10% chance of killing a Space Marine.

He might shoot it down before it's in range though.

A Space Marine could punch through the armour of a modern day tank.

The Marine would'nt even stagger backwards from the tank's shells.

You stand no chance with your 12g Semi-auto Remmington or the RPG you have for some reason stashed in your basement.

Your only option is to repent, for your deliverance has come.

Filthy heretics.

And then physics reasserts its power over all living thing and we can laughs at its helplessness.

Also Orks don't slaughter Guardsmen in large numbers regularly, and an SM can not stop a warband on his own.

It depends on what definition of Marine you're talking about.

1) Black Library: All over the place, from lasguns blowing power-armoured heads clean off (First and Only, iirc) to Marines enduring volleys of lasgun and artillery fire with little trouble (Storm of Iron).

2) RPGs without Deathwatch: Marine NPCs weren't that bad, with a competent Only War PC being able to take down a Chaos Space Marine.

3) RPGs with Deathwatch: Marine PCs can fight 1v1 with a hive tyrant and win.

4) Table top: Lasguns are more threatening to Marines, point for point, than boltguns are to guardsmen, if the guardsmen have ruins to take cover in.

5) My headcanon (as valid as anyone else's by Word of God!): Space Marines in power armour are phenomenally durable but not indestructible, even given modern weapons technology. Things like an inaccurate burst from a 5.56 or 7.62mm weapon will sprang harmlessly off the armour, a well-aimed bullet will go through the rubber-tube joints and inflict damage to the armour (though likely not incapacitate the marine), and anything higher calibre will inflict considerably more damage, up to mid-20th century antitank munitions which would effortlessly pierce through even the thickest point of the breastplate and mulch the marine inside.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
2) RPGs without Deathwatch: Marine NPCs weren't that bad, with a competent Only War PC being able to take down a Chaos Space Marine.

I found Only War to be absolutely nuts and we changed it a lot when my local RPG group picked it up (like when we undid the huge Astartes nerf in Black Crusade, etc.)

My headcanon is that Astartes would fare rather well against modern forces, because anything big and punchy enough to be useful is impractical against such a relatively small target.

To the OP: Beseech the dark gods for a boon.

All Americans in this thread: "Shoot it a bunch".
Everyone else: Role playing or table top super high fidelity analysis that makes it seem impossible.


As a red blooded American, ya'll need to watch some more Red Dawn. (The old one yeah boy.) I do not personally own more then a 12 gauge, but at close range a deer slug is going to throw down some insane damage, just not penetrate very well.

Some of the crazy rifle rounds would end a marine pretty fast, ammunition is crazy far ahead of armor at the moment. Unless he is a tank or a terminator that 3+ save isn't going to stop bullets forever. (His boltgun on the other hand can stop them :-) )

 sfshilo wrote:
Some of the crazy rifle rounds would end a marine pretty fast, ammunition is crazy far ahead of armor at the moment.

Marine armor is not at the moment though!

 sfshilo wrote:
All Americans in this thread: "Shoot it a bunch".
Everyone else: Role playing or table top super high fidelity analysis that makes it seem impossible.

And the Finns... If it's the Red Stars Chapter, auto-lose for the SMs!