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If you look a bit closer at Angron he's not all angry all the time. He's actually quite an effective leader. Just look at the effectiveness of the Word Bearers for instance, and how they were able to come up with solutions to the massive attrition rates their doctrine inflicted on the battlefield.

It's only on the battlefield that they're raving berserking madmen.

Besides, the Warmaster's primary function is to hold the rest of the primarchs together. There's countless underlings who can do the politicing and the subtlety and other such things.

Treachery's not so hard to deal with if everyone's terrified of getting their face caved in if they cross you. Sure that might mean it's fairly difficult to break bad news to the guy, but that's what Kharn's for...

Plus, as far as I can tell, he was actually relatively liked by the rest of the primarchs. Or at least not as actively disliked by different cliques like Dorn, Guilliman, Curze, the Lion, Russ...basically anyone that wasn't Sanguinius or Horus.

Angron for president!

Make Khorne Great Again!

I'm gonna build a wall, between the Blood Gods palace and Slaanesh's palace, and who's gonna pay for that wall?

Khorne Bezerkers: RAAAAAWR!

That's right, the daemoneetes!

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
If you look a bit closer at Angron he's not all angry all the time. He's actually quite an effective leader. Just look at the effectiveness of the Word Bearers for instance, and how they were able to come up with solutions to the massive attrition rates their doctrine inflicted on the battlefield.

It's only on the battlefield that they're raving berserking madmen.

Besides, the Warmaster's primary function is to hold the rest of the primarchs together. There's countless underlings who can do the politicing and the subtlety and other such things.

Treachery's not so hard to deal with if everyone's terrified of getting their face caved in if they cross you. Sure that might mean it's fairly difficult to break bad news to the guy, but that's what Kharn's for...

Plus, as far as I can tell, he was actually relatively liked by the rest of the primarchs. Or at least not as actively disliked by different cliques like Dorn, Guilliman, Curze, the Lion, Russ...basically anyone that wasn't Sanguinius or Horus.

Angron for president!

Not really, one of the points of the skirmish between the Space Wolves and the World Eaters was to demonstrate that even his own legion didn't give a gak about him. Not exactly the makings of a great leader, especially not one put in command of the entirety of the Imperium's military assets.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


I'd personally say Guilliman - more organised as a leader than Dorn and far less prone to wasting troops (Iron Cage incident), better at governance than Lion - his only lacking point is in charisma - which really none of the other Primarchs, perhaps barring Fulgrim or Vulkan matched, and neither of those Primarchs were noted for generalship. Guilliman would not be a first choice, but if Horus and Sanguinus were out of the question, I go to the commander of the XIIIth each time.

Warmaster Guilliman would have started a Heresy by pissing off so many Primarchs that they'd conspire against the Warmaster, not the Emperor.

can someone give reasons why it couldn't be Khan?

LightKing wrote:
can someone give reasons why it couldn't be Khan?

Best reason why not is because Horus existed. Such an accomplished, capable, experienced, and well liked guy already there. It's tough to make a lesser individual the leader over greater men.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Warmaster Guilliman would have started a Heresy by pissing off so many Primarchs that they'd conspire against the Warmaster, not the Emperor.

Hah this.

LightKing wrote:
can someone give reasons why it couldn't be Khan?

Didn't Khan and Russ have a bit of enmity between them, and some sort of manufactured-feeling enmity with the Raven Guard (never really got that one). I don't know much about him really, but he doesn't strike me as charismatic enough to lead compared to Horus and Sanguinius (same problem Guilliman has).

The trouble is, leading any organisation isn't really about knowledge or skill. You need to be knowledgeable enough to know what you're talking about, but the best leaders are generalists who surround themselves with experts who know a lot more about a lot narrower field of interest.

The Warmaster doesn't need to be the best tactician, or the best warrior, or the most powerful psyker. That's what his generals are for.

What the Warmaster needs to be is charismatic enough that the others will follow him no matter what, and tactful enough to stop them from ripping each others' heads off.

Given that, there's only really two candidates. Horus and Sanguinius.

 Crazyterran wrote:
It states in multiple sources that isn't the dark angels book that the Ultramarines were second only to the Sons of Horus in compliances. It says this in book four, in index Astartes, and in the Space Marines codex.

As for Primarchs, the Lion was a brooding psychopath, the wolf a barbarian, and Horus fell easily. Sanguinius was the one Primarch everyone genuinely liked, and would have been the perfect choice for Warmaster. The Warmasters job was less running the individual battles and campaigns as much as it was getting the very different primarchs and Legions to work together, which Sanguinius could have done easily.

Guilliman was the best Warmaster after the heresy, as he did what he needed to - picked up the pieces and ensured the Imperium survived. That no Huron could come along and usurp an entire Legion and send the Imperium into a civil war. (Coincidently, the Astral Claws had the same type of Chapter tactics as the Dark Angels have... stubborn and hit and run bikes.. hmmm)

So, pre Heresy the best Warmaster would have been Sanguinius, as he was safe from chaos and loved by them all - he was just not favoured by the Emperor, since Horus was the first son, and everyone knows the oldest is always the favourite.

Post Heresy, Guilliman was the best, as he was the only Primarch that could lay the foundations for a state to last ten thousand years.

As matter of fact we know Lion was not psychopat, he had Borderline personality disorder and maybe, BAYBE bordering on Sociopathy and that is big difference. I am not terapist tho.
I believe that it should be Sanguinius with Lion tailing him. First thing at start of heresy Guilliman did was run to secure his own imperium instead of hepling Emps and that kind of rooting him out for me.
Second thing is that there was not many primarchs that liked him.

Sorry for bad english.

 Naberiel wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
It states in multiple sources that isn't the dark angels book that the Ultramarines were second only to the Sons of Horus in compliances. It says this in book four, in index Astartes, and in the Space Marines codex.

As for Primarchs, the Lion was a brooding psychopath, the wolf a barbarian, and Horus fell easily. Sanguinius was the one Primarch everyone genuinely liked, and would have been the perfect choice for Warmaster. The Warmasters job was less running the individual battles and campaigns as much as it was getting the very different primarchs and Legions to work together, which Sanguinius could have done easily.

Guilliman was the best Warmaster after the heresy, as he did what he needed to - picked up the pieces and ensured the Imperium survived. That no Huron could come along and usurp an entire Legion and send the Imperium into a civil war. (Coincidently, the Astral Claws had the same type of Chapter tactics as the Dark Angels have... stubborn and hit and run bikes.. hmmm)

So, pre Heresy the best Warmaster would have been Sanguinius, as he was safe from chaos and loved by them all - he was just not favoured by the Emperor, since Horus was the first son, and everyone knows the oldest is always the favourite.

Post Heresy, Guilliman was the best, as he was the only Primarch that could lay the foundations for a state to last ten thousand years.

As matter of fact we know Lion was not psychopat, he had Borderline personality disorder and maybe, BAYBE bordering on Sociopathy and that is big difference. I am not terapist tho.
I believe that it should be Sanguinius with Lion tailing him. First thing at start of heresy Guilliman did was run to secure his own imperium instead of hepling Emps and that kind of rooting him out for me.
Second thing is that there was not many primarchs that liked him.

Sorry for bad english.

First thing Guilliman did was trying to avoid his Legion's destruction on Calth, then he set out to pursue Angron and Lorgar's Shadow Crusade. After Angron's apostheosis, he couldn't leave Ultramar due to the Ruinstorm. Stop the mindless hate on Guilliman

Did forget about that. I dont hate him, just i am not fond of him

Are there any non-Primarch characters that could do a respectable job of being Warmaster; is there anyone loved/feared enough for Primarchs to bow down to (going by the HH I guess the Emperor wasn't!)

maybe Sigilite? but i doubt they would bow to any mortal.

Much later on, but Lord Solar Macharius maybe?

 Exergy wrote:

LightKing wrote:
can someone give reasons why it couldn't be Khan?

Best reason why not is because Horus existed. Such an accomplished, capable, experienced, and well liked guy already there. It's tough to make a lesser individual the leader over greater men.

Khan was also the outrider and never stayed in one place, he is the blade of grass on the wind. He never would have been contactable and I don't believe he would have had the interest to be Warmaster. It just didn't fit the Khan. The Khan is also one of the least trusted Primarchs because no one, save Horus and Magnus, really knew anything about him.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Warmaster Guilliman would have started a Heresy by pissing off so many Primarchs that they'd conspire against the Warmaster, not the Emperor.

Where is this idea that so many Primarchs vehemently hate Guilliman coming from?

Not sure myself, but he does come across as a little insufferable.

His 'dauntless few' school-prefects-club sounds like a really easy way to alienate a solid proportion of the other Primarchs.

And then he goes and pisses off one of his 'dauntless few' post-heresy to the point that there's nearly another civil war about that too!

He has the strength of will to make tough decisions (fits with his 'empire builder' character), but doesn't seem to have the diplomatic flair for making people happy with those tough decisions.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Not sure myself, but he does come across as a little insufferable.

His 'dauntless few' school-prefects-club sounds like a really easy way to alienate a solid proportion of the other Primarchs.

And then he goes and pisses off one of his 'dauntless few' post-heresy to the point that there's nearly another civil war about that too!

He has the strength of will to make tough decisions (fits with his 'empire builder' character), but doesn't seem to have the diplomatic flair for making people happy with those tough decisions.

which one of the dauntless few does he piss off

Dorn when he divides the legions.

Dorn was one of the dauntless few wasn't he?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Warmaster Guilliman would have started a Heresy by pissing off so many Primarchs that they'd conspire against the Warmaster, not the Emperor.

Where is this idea that so many Primarchs vehemently hate Guilliman coming from?

Because he pissed off loads of them and almost started a second civil war with his Codex Astartes.

 ChazSexington wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Warmaster Guilliman would have started a Heresy by pissing off so many Primarchs that they'd conspire against the Warmaster, not the Emperor.

Where is this idea that so many Primarchs vehemently hate Guilliman coming from?

Because he pissed off loads of them and almost started a second civil war with his Codex Astartes.

Guilliman never said his Codex was "law" in fact he said the complete opposite yet many chapters didn't get the memo apparently

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Warmaster Guilliman would have started a Heresy by pissing off so many Primarchs that they'd conspire against the Warmaster, not the Emperor.

Hah this.

LightKing wrote:
can someone give reasons why it couldn't be Khan?

Didn't Khan and Russ have a bit of enmity between them, and some sort of manufactured-feeling enmity with the Raven Guard (never really got that one). I don't know much about him really, but he doesn't strike me as charismatic enough to lead compared to Horus and Sanguinius (same problem Guilliman has).

The trouble is, leading any organisation isn't really about knowledge or skill. You need to be knowledgeable enough to know what you're talking about, but the best leaders are generalists who surround themselves with experts who know a lot more about a lot narrower field of interest.

The Warmaster doesn't need to be the best tactician, or the best warrior, or the most powerful psyker. That's what his generals are for.

What the Warmaster needs to be is charismatic enough that the others will follow him no matter what, and tactful enough to stop them from ripping each others' heads off.

Given that, there's only really two candidates. Horus and Sanguinius.

This is actually perfect

Guilliman.

Enough of the other main contenders respected him. Even if Guilliman himself wasn't the most charismatic of the Primarchs, having Horus and Sanguinius on his side would have been enough to retain everybody else. Horus himself would have been spending lots of time saying "You may not like him, but he's absolutely right."

Also note, Guilliman may not have been the most charismatic Primarch, but as a Primarch he's still possesses an insane amount of charisma. People might think "He's aloof, I like that Horus guy/Sanguinius guy a little more for their fiery heart." (or whatever), but Guilliman would also understand that. He'd make the sorts of arguments that Horus and Sanguinius would respect, and then you'd have two very charismatic lieutenants that could wrangle those who were a little more prone to psychology. Also, both of those guys probably felt that they could approach Guilliman and get a fair say, as Guilliman respected/understood both of them enough to defer judgement if required.

I pick out Horus and Sanguinius only because they are often noted as being the most charismatic, but probably a couple other Primarchs could work. Basically, I think any other Primarch in the running for Warmaster would see the sense of Guilliman, and Guilliman could be respectful enough of those guys to keep things working.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Warmaster Guilliman would have started a Heresy by pissing off so many Primarchs that they'd conspire against the Warmaster, not the Emperor.

Where is this idea that so many Primarchs vehemently hate Guilliman coming from?

He insulted Alpharius' way of war, even when there was nothing wrong with it
Almost caused another civil war with Dorn
The Lion was in RAGE mode when he realised that Gulliman was building another Imperium
Critisised Pertuarbo (fair enough in my opinion)
Didn't trust the Khan to the point where he excludes him from the dauntless few
He may not have liked shaming lorgar, but he should have had the balls to say to the emperor this is only going to end badly

This means he didn't get on with/insulted/almost caused a war with a 1/3 of the primarchs. This is without counting curze or angron who noone other than fulgrim horus or sanguinius could deal with. But yeah, if counted that makes the "primarchs who wont listen to me" count up to 9. Considering he is also a primarch, this means only 8 of the primarchs might have listened to him. Sanguinius, Horus, Magnus, Vulkan, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Leman Russ and Corvus Corax.

Wakshaani wrote:
As much as I want to say Gulliman for all the reasons listed above (He is, after all, essentially the architect of the Imperium!)

Oh no, you do not take malcadors credit.

Cassor the Damned wrote:

Almost caused another civil war with Dorn

They disagreed tremendously, but ultimately Dorn went along with it. They respected each other a great deal.

Cassor the Damned wrote:


This is actually perfect

Thanks man it's quite a common misconception people have that the most skilled people make the best leaders.

Leadership itself is a skill that's utterly independent of any other specific knowledge or talents an individual has.

It's why it's only really Horus or Sanguinius for the post of Warmaster, and why the Emperor himself failed as a leader of the Imperium. The Emperor had all of the skill necessary to forge the Imperium, but lacked the interpersonal skills to ensure the loyalty of his generals.

Cassor the Damned wrote:


He insulted Alpharius' way of war, even when there was nothing wrong with it
Almost caused another civil war with Dorn
The Lion was in RAGE mode when he realised that Gulliman was building another Imperium
Critisised Pertuarbo (fair enough in my opinion)
Didn't trust the Khan to the point where he excludes him from the dauntless few
He may not have liked shaming lorgar, but he should have had the balls to say to the emperor this is only going to end badly

This means he didn't get on with/insulted/almost caused a war with a 1/3 of the primarchs. This is without counting curze or angron who noone other than fulgrim horus or sanguinius could deal with. But yeah, if counted that makes the "primarchs who wont listen to me" count up to 9. Considering he is also a primarch, this means only 8 of the primarchs might have listened to him. Sanguinius, Horus, Magnus, Vulkan, Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Leman Russ and Corvus Corax.

This is exactly why Guilliman would make a terrible Warmaster, but an excellent general.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Cassor the Damned wrote:

Almost caused another civil war with Dorn

They disagreed tremendously, but ultimately Dorn went along with it. They respected each other a great deal.

Dorn went with it because Gulliman was willing to destroy his Legion and had the numbers to do it.

Rowboat would have acted like this if made Warmaster to all of the other Legions.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Dorn went with it because Gulliman was willing to destroy his Legion and had the numbers to do it.

Rowboat would have acted like this if made Warmaster to all of the other Legions.

Yeah Dorn went with it because he had no other choice

Rowboat would probably have acted exactly as expected had he been made Warmaster: made the unpopular decisions that needed to be made, without the tact to ensure people were happy with them.

That would have lasted right up until the point he tried it with the Lion, who famously isn't one to mince his words, whereupon there would have been 'tremendous disagreement'.

Now, I'm not one to rag against Guilliman just because his little blue men have been the poster-boys of SM fanboyism. Guilliman has many talents that his peers lack, and he's one of the few Primarchs with the strength of will to come out of the heresy as anything other than a broken man. That's a hell of an accolade.

However, like all other primarchs, he has his weaknesses. His lack of tact is evidenced by the long, long list of people he's pissed off.

That single aspect of his personality would render him unsuitable for the role of warmaster. He's have made the right decisions, but pissed people off enough that it wouldn't matter.

Have you ever had a job where your boss was an absolute tw*t? Did you and your colleagues work to your greatest effectiveness, and obey his every order even if it sounded nonsensical?

Nope. You thought he was a tw*t and did whatever it was that you wanted to do, how you wanted to do it.

That's how Guilliman as Warmaster would go down.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

His 'dauntless few' school-prefects-club sounds like a really easy way to alienate a solid proportion of the other Primarchs.

And then he goes and pisses off one of his 'dauntless few' post-heresy to the point that there's nearly another civil war about that too!

Did he mention it to any of the Primarchs?

That wasn't really his fault. The High Lords of Terra ordered that the Legions be reorganised so that one man couldn't control the same sort of power Horus (or any Primarch really) did.

ChazSexington wrote:Because he pissed off loads of them and almost started a second civil war with his Codex Astartes.

Arguably the High Lords of Terra were to blame for the almost-civil-war. He was just following orders.

Cassor the Damned wrote:He insulted Alpharius' way of war, even when there was nothing wrong with it
Almost caused another civil war with Dorn
The Lion was in RAGE mode when he realised that Gulliman was building another Imperium
Critisised Pertuarbo (fair enough in my opinion)
Didn't trust the Khan to the point where he excludes him from the dauntless few
He may not have liked shaming lorgar, but he should have had the balls to say to the emperor this is only going to end badly

Yes there was. Alpharius deliberately let worlds fortify themselves and prepare for battle so he could show off. That unnecessarily lead to more deaths and slowed down his progress. And the speed of conquest was very important to the Emperor.

The Lion also ended up understanding what Guilliman was doing. That was a rather unique situation, too. He was cut off the rest of the Imperium and so had to ensure what he could govern operated as well as it could.

Khan not being in the Dauntless Few isn't really a strike against Guilliman unless there's more to it than that. Wasn't Khan considered a bit of an enigma by many?

How do you know he didn't say that to the Emperor? You only really see it from the Word Bearer perspective if I recall correctly. Regardless, he did as the Emperor commanded as any (or most) other Primarch would have.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Have you ever had a job where your boss was an absolute tw*t? Did you and your colleagues work to your greatest effectiveness, and obey his every order even if it sounded nonsensical?

Nope. You thought he was a tw*t and did whatever it was that you wanted to do, how you wanted to do it.

That's how Guilliman as Warmaster would go down.

In that situation, the boss is only a tw*t if they're also incompetent. If they're direct to the point of abrasive, but incredibly competent, I will happily accept that.

The lesser of the Primarchs might have an issue with it. The less touchy ones would see through to the merit of his direction, and get over it.

Let's not forget that Guilliman also assembled one of the most prosperous regions of human space. You can't do that if you're not a good leader.