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 Frazzled wrote:

A gamer is someone who NEEDS TO GET A FREAKING JOB.
-signed-every generation before you.

I made millions playing video games on YouTube.
-sighed- PewDiePie

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

A gamer is someone who NEEDS TO GET A FREAKING JOB.
-signed-every generation before you.

I made millions playing video games on YouTube.
-sighed- PewDiePie

"Get out of our basement already"
--sighed- PewDiePie's parents

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
[ I think gamers were sick of it, and when they saw something that they thought proved that "fake gamers" were trying to push out "real gamers", it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

"Real" and "fake" gamers? Come on man. That's childish. It's like when I was arguing with my friends back in junior high about whether The Offspring was "real" punk or not. It's totally arbitrary nonsense.

Your parents have asked me to remind all you gamers-real or unreal-to put down the game device, get a job, and move out of the house you lazy bums.

A gamer is like an art connoisseur or a bibliophile or a movie buff.

A gamer is someone who NEEDS TO GET A FREAKING JOB.
-signed-every generation before you.

Gamer with a job here, I live on my own, oh guide, wise old bastard.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

A gamer is someone who NEEDS TO GET A FREAKING JOB.
-signed-every generation before you.

I made millions playing video games on YouTube.
-sighed- PewDiePie

"Get out of our basement already"
--sighed- PewDiePie's parents

"Get out of my recommended Youtube feed, for the love of God"

Signed,

Everyone who let a younger relative access their computer

 Sqorgar wrote:
A gamer is like an art connoisseur or a bibliophile or a movie buff. It is someone who doesn't just enjoy gaming, but respects it, and respects the artists and artisans who make it. And, I think, gamers find comfort being around other gamers because a respect of gaming isn't not nearly as commonplace as it should be.

So what is the gaming equivalent to the Grapes of Wrath? Guernica? One Hundred Years of Solitude? Come and See? Which games tackle the impossibility of faith in a silent universe? Oh wait, it's the "social justice non-game crap" that does that. Not Pong, Doom, Super Mario, Dead or Alive (volleyball and non), Madden or whatever else that is held up as a real game for real gamers. That Dragon, Cancer had its Steam forum page flooded with formulaic trolling by representatives of "real gaming" precisely because it handled faith in trying times. There hasn't been much respect for videogames because the medium is hard to understand, hard to make and most of it doesn't have very high ambitions. The great games have mostly been great at delivering an experience rather than doing anything to make you understand the world better. A dazzling piece of escapism deserves understanding and praise in its own way but it's hard to make good art without being about something and challenging people.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
A gamer is like an art connoisseur or a bibliophile or a movie buff. It is someone who doesn't just enjoy gaming, but respects it, and respects the artists and artisans who make it. And, I think, gamers find comfort being around other gamers because a respect of gaming isn't not nearly as commonplace as it should be.

So what is the gaming equivalent to the Grapes of Wrath? Guernica? One Hundred Years of Solitude? Come and See? Which games tackle the impossibility of faith in a silent universe? Oh wait, it's the "social justice non-game crap" that does that. Not Pong, Doom, Super Mario, Dead or Alive (volleyball and non), Madden or whatever else that is held up as a real game for real gamers. That Dragon, Cancer had its Steam forum page flooded with formulaic trolling by representatives of "real gaming" precisely because it handled faith in trying times. There hasn't been much respect for videogames because the medium is hard to understand, hard to make and most of it doesn't have very high ambitions. The great games have mostly been great at delivering an experience rather than doing anything to make you understand the world better. A dazzling piece of escapism deserves understanding and praise in its own way but it's hard to make good art without being about something and challenging people.

I'm just a filthy console peasant so my choice is rather limited, but I definitely felt real feels about the hard, selfish choices made while playing through The Last of Us, similar to the feels I got from The Winter of Our Discontent.

But I might be a Fake Gamer.

For a slightly more constructive and less-off-topic post than my last one in here, I'd like to make one quick note that seems to get overlooked when people get in the is-the-alt-right-racist/is-Gamergate-misogynist/do-the-Sad-Puppies-need-to-stack-votes-to-win mudpit; it's something that's become abundantly clear with taking a look at the post-election. Not everyone who voted for Trump is a screaming bigot. Sometimes people really do want better journalism to cover video games. Maybe someone really wants to bring attention to a novel that got overlooked.

But as long as they associate themselves with the people that want a Muslim database, or the people sending rape threats and publishing addresses, or whatever drivel was coming out of Vox Day's keyboard...as long as they march under the same banner...that's tacit endorsement. Not everyone who voted for Trump was a racist, but everyone who voted for Trump found having a racist in the White House acceptable. If people don't want 'alt-right' to represent racism, then they need to do something about it.

 Spinner wrote:
For a slightly more constructive and less-off-topic post than my last one in here, I'd like to make one quick note that seems to get overlooked when people get in the is-the-alt-right-racist/is-Gamergate-misogynist/do-the-Sad-Puppies-need-to-stack-votes-to-win mudpit; it's something that's become abundantly clear with taking a look at the post-election. Not everyone who voted for Trump is a screaming bigot. Sometimes people really do want better journalism to cover video games. Maybe someone really wants to bring attention to a novel that got overlooked.

But as long as they associate themselves with the people that want a Muslim database, or the people sending rape threats and publishing addresses, or whatever drivel was coming out of Vox Day's keyboard...as long as they march under the same banner...that's tacit endorsement. Not everyone who voted for Trump was a racist, but everyone who voted for Trump found having a racist in the White House acceptable. If people don't want 'alt-right' to represent racism, then they need to do something about it.

What do you want us to do? Aside from not being a bigot, I'm not sure what actions items would improve peoples' understanding.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Spinner wrote:
For a slightly more constructive and less-off-topic post than my last one in here, I'd like to make one quick note that seems to get overlooked when people get in the is-the-alt-right-racist/is-Gamergate-misogynist/do-the-Sad-Puppies-need-to-stack-votes-to-win mudpit; it's something that's become abundantly clear with taking a look at the post-election. Not everyone who voted for Trump is a screaming bigot. Sometimes people really do want better journalism to cover video games. Maybe someone really wants to bring attention to a novel that got overlooked.

But as long as they associate themselves with the people that want a Muslim database, or the people sending rape threats and publishing addresses, or whatever drivel was coming out of Vox Day's keyboard...as long as they march under the same banner...that's tacit endorsement. Not everyone who voted for Trump was a racist, but everyone who voted for Trump found having a racist in the White House acceptable. If people don't want 'alt-right' to represent racism, then they need to do something about it.

What do you want us to do? Aside from not being a bigot, I'm not sure what actions items would improve peoples' understanding.

Apart from have a good, long think over whether or not you want yourself to be represented by a term that the crazy racist people are flocking to?

It's a tough question. The obvious answer is 'find a new term', although I'm assuming that you don't find that acceptable. Like it or not, though, as things stand, alt-right means that big old 'make America white again' swastika graffiti, and saying 'of course it means something different' without addressing the screaming racists does nothing to change that perception.

Rosebuddy wrote:

So what is the gaming equivalent to the Grapes of Wrath? Guernica? One Hundred Years of Solitude? Come and See? Which games tackle the impossibility of faith in a silent universe?

Gaming is a different media form, completely unlike more traditional narratives. There are a few RPGs (specifically Planescape: Torment) and interactive fiction (Mind Forever Voyaging) which tackle subject matter like that well, but for the most part, I don't think that's what games do well. If they challenge narrative media at all, it is usually when it emulates them to well - though even then, the interactive aspect of gaming can surprise and contribute to the experience in new and unique ways, such as when you enter Mexico in Red Dead Redemption or playing The Kitchen in VR or going through a dialogue tree in The Secret of Monkey Island.

But I think that when games are truly special, they are something that can't be done in other media - such as online communities in massively multiplayer games. The nature of community, government, and even self are challenged in a format where you can be anything, do anything, and understanding in that sort of social playground contributes to our understanding of identity and belonging in the real world. It is through play that we experiment and learn, create and design. Something like Minecraft is a game, and yet it is a tool of expression - but so is Pokemon or Magic the Gathering. Books can have a sense of adventure, but it is only in a game that you can explore for yourself.

Honestly, I think the gameplay is what sets games apart from more traditional narratives, and while I think emulating other narrative media is possible to be successful at, a truly successful game is one that utilizes the interactive medium to its fullest.

A dazzling piece of escapism deserves understanding and praise in its own way but it's hard to make good art without being about something and challenging people.

Not sure I agree. Gaming isn't just about escapism. There is something intellectual about interacting with a new and unfamiliar system, and I think we can appreciate the beauty of its design without it having to be something relatable.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
A gamer is like an art connoisseur or a bibliophile or a movie buff. It is someone who doesn't just enjoy gaming, but respects it, and respects the artists and artisans who make it. And, I think, gamers find comfort being around other gamers because a respect of gaming isn't not nearly as commonplace as it should be.

So what is the gaming equivalent to the Grapes of Wrath? Guernica? One Hundred Years of Solitude? Come and See? Which games tackle the impossibility of faith in a silent universe? Oh wait, it's the "social justice non-game crap" that does that. Not Pong, Doom, Super Mario, Dead or Alive (volleyball and non), Madden or whatever else that is held up as a real game for real gamers.

I take it you haven't heard of silent hill, nor the (early) fallout games, nor planescape torment.
Those are games; there's rules to be followed (the game's programming), actions to be made (whatever the player does), as well as win / lose conditions (game over / YOU DIED / *You can no longer proceed in the game due to the action you took*).
Btw, the Dark Souls lose condition is a curious one; its not so much dying that's the fail state, but you giving up due to dying repeatably. It kind of ties in with the theme of hollowing out. Dying is just a fail state that impedes progress. Giving up is the true game over.

More recently there was Undertale. I never played that one, but it there were some aspects of it that looked intriguing.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Books can have a sense of adventure, but it is only in a game that you can explore for yourself.

You could always write a story. Then the exploration wouldn't have to be limited by what the developers wrote into the code.

I agree that games focusing on the language of interaction have a good shot at advancing the medium but the biggest problem there is the language itself. Controllers are pretty alien devices for a lot of people. This limits approachability further beyond requiring specific, extra advanced machines. Not a lot of people are going to have to skip a number of major new books just because their physical dimensions are wrong. One game I think does a pretty good job of both expressing itself through interaction and keeping it simple is Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons but I feel there's even more that can be done. Videogames have the major physical issue of the exact device used to interact with them. It's going to require a lot of thinking outside the box to even begin handling that and that's part of why the whole Gamergate movement was so damaging for the medium. Driving away everyone who doesn't have the same understanding of what a game is and should be can only lead to stagnation.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
A gamer is like an art connoisseur or a bibliophile or a movie buff. It is someone who doesn't just enjoy gaming, but respects it, and respects the artists and artisans who make it. And, I think, gamers find comfort being around other gamers because a respect of gaming isn't not nearly as commonplace as it should be.

So what is the gaming equivalent to the Grapes of Wrath? Guernica? One Hundred Years of Solitude? Come and See? Which games tackle the impossibility of faith in a silent universe? Oh wait, it's the "social justice non-game crap" that does that. Not Pong, Doom, Super Mario, Dead or Alive (volleyball and non), Madden or whatever else that is held up as a real game for real gamers. That Dragon, Cancer had its Steam forum page flooded with formulaic trolling by representatives of "real gaming" precisely because it handled faith in trying times. There hasn't been much respect for videogames because the medium is hard to understand, hard to make and most of it doesn't have very high ambitions. The great games have mostly been great at delivering an experience rather than doing anything to make you understand the world better. A dazzling piece of escapism deserves understanding and praise in its own way but it's hard to make good art without being about something and challenging people.

Off-topic, if I wanted to argue for a particular game being particularly poignant in its purpose ("what does humanity's future look like? What does the perfect society look like?"), I would argue for Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri fitting that description. The add-on dilutes the "conflict of philosophies" aspect too much but the core game is still amazing to this day.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Lol.. the guy who doesn't believe in science. Thinks women should carry dead fetuses to term. And is all around a bigger and worse racists, sexist, monster than Trump could hope to be.

Yup. Pence is a pretty solid guy.

Not someone who is a high risk of leading a coup though

I don't think he'd know a coup from a sedan.

Grimdark wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Two new people for my ignore list.

I don't have a dog in this fight.
I don't actually give a feth that people are making images about trump being the empy.

On the other I find it absolutely hilarious to see how the left is the new right

Thanks for quoting that - I wouldn't have seen it since he's already on mine...

Rosebuddy wrote:
You could always write a story. Then the exploration wouldn't have to be limited by what the developers wrote into the code.

Problem with writing a story is that you kind of know what is around every corner. You put it there.

I agree that games focusing on the language of interaction have a good shot at advancing the medium but the biggest problem there is the language itself. Controllers are pretty alien devices for a lot of people. This limits approachability further beyond requiring specific, extra advanced machines. Not a lot of people are going to have to skip a number of major new books just because their physical dimensions are wrong.

I do not feel like we have adequately explored the design space we have available to us now, and the limiting factor is that the game industry is made up of a few very large companies who largely focus on a few, risk-free genres. I actually think that efforts towards approachability end up hampering the potential of gaming. You can make something new or you can make something familiar. You can't do both - certainly not with the variety needed for the game industry to be sustainable for another few decades.

One game I think does a pretty good job of both expressing itself through interaction and keeping it simple is Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons but I feel there's even more that can be done. Videogames have the major physical issue of the exact device used to interact with them. It's going to require a lot of thinking outside the box to even begin handling that and that's part of why the whole Gamergate movement was so damaging for the medium. Driving away everyone who doesn't have the same understanding of what a game is and should be can only lead to stagnation.

GamerGate wasn't damaging to the medium. Anita Sarkeesian getting on her soap box and telling us what we can and can't do with the medium was damaging. Games journalism constantly criticizing games that exist outside the very, very small box of diversity and socially progressive values was damaging. Alienating the very group of gamers that accept complexity and variety in game design, causing designs to get even more risk-adverse and conformist in an effort to appeal to the legendarily uncommitted casual non-gaming audience was damaging. The end result is that the variety that the game industry used to feature has been replaced with an reliance on tired game design and ideological purity.

GamerGate didn't harm the game industry. It was a response to the game industry harming itself. And for that, they get labeled "alt-right" racists and harassers.

 Sqorgar wrote:
GamerGate wasn't damaging to the medium. Anita Sarkeesian getting on her soap box and telling us what we can and can't do with the medium was damaging. Games journalism constantly criticizing games that exist outside the very, very small box of diversity and socially progressive values was damaging. Alienating the very group of gamers that accept complexity and variety in game design, causing designs to get even more risk-adverse and conformist in an effort to appeal to the legendarily uncommitted casual non-gaming audience was damaging. The end result is that the variety that the game industry used to feature has been replaced with an reliance on tired game design and ideological purity.

Really? I am not a Sarkeesian fan, so this is not in defense of her at all, but how old is Gamer Gate? 2 years? To say that the game industry used to be full of variety and now isn't seems a stretch. Gamers have been bitching about the sameness of games for years, certainly well before Sarkeesian or anyone involved with Gamer Gate were on anyone's radar.

LightKing wrote:
With this election of Trump, there have been many on the Alt-Right twitter, White Nationalists etc. that are appropriating Warhammer 40k stuff...for example

calling Trump "God Emperor" and posting alot of far right fanfiction using warhammer 40k images as the storytelling device

GW should come out and say we don't support the use of our property for this, I mean Warhammer 40k already has a reputation as being a "fascist" science fiction universe, from what many outsiders think

By any chance are you a registered democrat

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Sqorgar wrote:
GamerGate wasn't damaging to the medium. Anita Sarkeesian getting on her soap box and telling us what we can and can't do with the medium was damaging. Games journalism constantly criticizing games that exist outside the very, very small box of diversity and socially progressive values was damaging. Alienating the very group of gamers that accept complexity and variety in game design, causing designs to get even more risk-adverse and conformist in an effort to appeal to the legendarily uncommitted casual non-gaming audience was damaging. The end result is that the variety that the game industry used to feature has been replaced with an reliance on tired game design and ideological purity.

Really? I am not a Sarkeesian fan, so this is not in defense of her at all, but how old is Gamer Gate? 2 years? To say that the game industry used to be full of variety and now isn't seems a stretch. Gamers have been bitching about the sameness of games for years, certainly well before Sarkeesian or anyone involved with Gamer Gate were on anyone's radar.

Yup. The big publishers had moved to churning out annual sequels for their man franchises way before gamergate was a thing. The point at which creativity and risk took a backseat to churn was when Call of Duty 4 came out.

And they did that because "real" gamers bought those games and then had to buy the next one so they could play the new multiplayer which was basically just a map pack with some added features on the last one.

 Sqorgar wrote:
Problem with writing a story is that you kind of know what is around every corner. You put it there.

There is a whole process to writing, though, and you don't have to really stop doing it.

 Sqorgar wrote:
GamerGate wasn't damaging to the medium. Anita Sarkeesian getting on her soap box and telling us what we can and can't do with the medium was damaging. Games journalism constantly criticizing games that exist outside the very, very small box of diversity and socially progressive values was damaging. Alienating the very group of gamers that accept complexity and variety in game design, causing designs to get even more risk-adverse and conformist in an effort to appeal to the legendarily uncommitted casual non-gaming audience was damaging. The end result is that the variety that the game industry used to feature has been replaced with an reliance on tired game design and ideological purity.

GamerGate didn't harm the game industry. It was a response to the game industry harming itself. And for that, they get labeled "alt-right" racists and harassers.

Sarkeesian's analysis was feminism 101. Anyone who flips their gak over that wouldn't last a minute in another medium. Literature and cinema gets put through the wringer ten times worse on a daily basis. If you think she's harsh, this will probably be more than you can even process. This is just people wanting all the recognition and cred for spending a lot of time on art without having to deal with actual critique and analysis. It's pathetic.

A game existing outside the "very, very small box of" diversity and socially progressive values (IE, not hating minorities) is incredibly easy. Tetris manages it. The games getting criticised were and are the ones that don't simply exist outside of explicitly exploring being gay or black or whatever, but the ones that promote a particular kind of violent, white masculinity. You're holding up right-wing white men as the ultimate connoisseurs of videogames, who stand proudly for innovative design, and it's bs. It's flagrantly untrue. You're talking about the core demographic for Battlefield, Fallout 4, Ubisoft lootfests and similar junk that challenges nothing because they're chained down by the sheer weight of their funding. Fallout 4 isn't bad because of women saying that a lot of games actually treat women terribly and that the scene in general is hostile to women, it's bad because of the nature of AAA games and Bethesda's incompetence.

The reason gamergate was labelled as harassers is because it's what they did. They organised harassment campaigns against tiered lists of targets. They threw the god damn kitchen sink of slurs and threats at women who wrote about what it was like being a woman in a hugely male-dominated industry. Your explanation of events is false. Your claim that the variety the industry "used to feature" a mere two years ago - two years ago - is gone now because of feminism is ridiculous. You are not the oh-so-reasonable viewer of both sides that you want to think you are.

Gamergate was just one big cluster among many on the long list of "first world problems". It started getting REALLY ridiculous when the trolls started moving in for "the lulz", and drama queens like Brianna Wu starting with her nonsense (like the crap that "ex-military snipers" were out to assassinate her).


Anita Sarkeesian is just another opportunistic stain just out to make a quick buck playing to the Tumblrinas and easily butthurt, and baiting the trolls to add more fuel to the fire. And all the while, she's raking in the cash and notoriety.


As for this junk about the "alt-right", that label is just another buzzword embraced by the hard left, media shills, and high-profile trolls profiting from it. I occasionally browse 4chan's /pol/ (the supposed "home" of the "alt-right"), and there are those there that reject the idea that they are part of some sort of "alt-right" movement (decentralized or otherwise). It's a similar case with this whole "Anonymous" garbage. The "normies" have been led to believe that they are some sort of "hacktivist collective" (which doesn't exist) every since that ruckus with the "Church" of Scientology back in '08. It's all a bunch of utter nonsense.

And the memes? Good luck with that. That's part of 4chan (and internet) culture. Memes are created, but some grow on their own like a lifeform. You can't stop that which is unstoppable. Even if you have a legal team with the punch of GW's.

Well 4chan isn't the home of the alt-right so your working with bad info. 8chan, R/the_donald, r/conspiracy, Stormfront, various closed group Facebook pages...etc etc, those are the homes of the alt-right. 4chan isn't anything but people trying to out rude and edge each other. Alt-right is an actual thing that is actually studied by real people.

LightKing wrote:
With this election of Trump, there have been many on the Alt-Right twitter, White Nationalists etc. that are appropriating Warhammer 40k stuff...for example

calling Trump "God Emperor" and posting alot of far right fanfiction using warhammer 40k images as the storytelling device

GW should come out and say we don't support the use of our property for this, I mean Warhammer 40k already has a reputation as being a "fascist" science fiction universe, from what many outsiders think

Are you a Trumps not my president sorta guy ?

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

easily butthurt

You mean like "gamers" who start whining the moment someone even dares to criticise a game in a way they don't like? As if it's a souffle that will collapse the moment anybody says something negative about it. That type of butthurt?

As for this junk about the "alt-right", that label is just another buzzword embraced by the hard left, media shills, and high-profile trolls profiting from it. I occasionally browse 4chan's /pol/ (the supposed "home" of the "alt-right"), and there are those there that reject the idea that they are part of some sort of "alt-right" movement (decentralized or otherwise).

Here are literal white supremacists saying they are the alt-right and embracing the term (as a politically correct euphemism for Neo-Nazis). http://www.dailystormer.com/a-normies-guide-to-the-alt-right/ (could be NSFW)
That has nothing to do with a "hard left buzzword" or media shills when they themselves are all for using it. From the linked article:

That said, there is nothing fundamentally different about the Alt-Right and the old White Nationalist movement. They have the same basic goals but simply use different methods in their attempts to achieve them.

Are people getting butt hurt over this ? I mean really!! With all the bad things going on in the world. You want to complain over this .

 loki old fart wrote:
Are people getting butt hurt over this ? I mean really!! With all the bad things going on in the world. You want to complain over this .

My only issue with that is the God Emperor of Mankind wouldn't get in a twitter war with a former beauty contestant, nor would he be so insecure as to feel compelled to defend the size of his penis on TV.

 loki old fart wrote:
Are people getting butt hurt over this ? I mean really!! With all the bad things going on in the world. You want to complain over this .

Spoiler:

Nobody was butthurt until a load of people came in and started complaining about people getting butthurt.

The OP was merely raising the point about whether GW will want their product associated with far-right politics (real life politics, that is).

 BrotherGecko wrote:
Well 4chan isn't the home of the alt-right so your working with bad info. 8chan, R/the_donald, r/conspiracy, Stormfront, various closed group Facebook pages...etc etc, those are the homes of the alt-right. 4chan isn't anything but people trying to out rude and edge each other. Alt-right is an actual thing that is actually studied by real people.

Wow, people study funny contrarians?

After a google I found you are correct. Seems it is studied.

I wonder if maybe the confusion here comes from people not understanding that a racist group doesn't mean every person who's enjoyed a meme from the group or particpated in some activity from the group is automatically a racist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 feeder wrote:
So while there are general traits one can apply to the stereotypical Dakkanaught, one cannot take a list of Dakka members and say "These people are all tabletop gamers."

That is the point I was trying to make.

Sure, so while it would be mistaken to say that every person who has ever contributed to the alt-right was racist, we can still acknowledge that such views are very common in the group, and the overall beliefs of the group have strong racist elements.

It isn't the study of contrarian memes but rather their use as a soft recruitment method. Introduce kids or young men to the basic concepts of racist ideology to normalize it. Which is what they do and openly admit it.