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 Mr Morden wrote:


Thanks for the info - so minor formation benefit which is ok.

Do we know if the Ministorum Detachment can be any Elite from the CIA codex or just any elite? Re read it so just AS Elites - seems a bit pointless as they almost all have Invuln saves?

It also gives ad will, so thats not that bad and who knows there might be further releases buffing units with this rule.

My take on the whole thing is that this book is meant to be more of an "ally in a squad of specialists to your existing Imperium army". It's small detachments and lone squads being attached to a larger army for a specific purpose. Special characters were removed because they will be in the codex proper, perhaps? Makes sense to think that every time the Imperium needs some sisters to aid in a fight that Saint Celestine wouldn't be joining them. Obviously I could be way off but I'm just looking at it like a grab bag of allies for the Imperium....a little of each so you can use models that have been sitting around with no purpose. "Got a squad of sisters, a squad of GK Termies, maybe just a group of deathcult assassins or crusaders....? Well, now you can toss them into the fight without needing an entire army of their ilk around them.

I mean, they are called Imperial Agents.....agents usually work in small groups, right? It wouldn't make sense to have armies of agent types. I feel we will be getting a Sisters Codex next year with revamped rules and (hopefully) point costs. This is just a placeholder for those who want to use them as a small ally.

 MisterPerkins wrote:
My take on the whole thing is that this book is meant to be a more of a "ally in a squad of specialists to your existing Imperium army". It's small detachments and loan squads being attached to a larger army for a specific purpose. Special characters were removed because they will be in the codex proper, perhaps? Makes sense to think that everytime the imperium needs some sisters to aid in a fight that Saint Celestine wouldn't be joining them. Obviously I could be way off but I'm just looking at it like a grab bag of allies for the Imperium....a little of each so you can use models that have been sitting around with no purpose. "Got a squad of sisters, a squad of GK Termies, maybe just a group of deathcult assassins or crusaders....? Well, now you can toss them into the fight without needing an entire army of their ilk around them.

I mean, they are called imperial Agents.....agents usually work in small groups, right? It wouldn't make sense to have armies of agent types. I feel we will be getting a Sisters Codex next year with revamped rules and (hopefully) point costs. This is just a placeholder for those who want to use them as a small ally.

Nah they just could not be bothered to keep making St C and hence deleted her. They could have even given the new canoness decent rules in exchange as a named character - but again they could not be bothered - which pretty much sums up the whole thing.

If they wanted it to operate as you describe they should have just put a few of the AS units in the codex, given all units in the whole codex Faction: Imperial Agents - but again they didn't bother so you still have to ally each different bit of the codex in.

Would it have taken more than 5 minutes to actually come up with a few formations for AS beyond the pile of crap they were given - they could have copied and pasted some of the million Marine ones - but again - they couldn't be bothered.

A new codex looks less and less likely.

This is a 'tidy up into one place and leave it' job then, not quite what was billed? Aiiieee. I'm still thinking the bin gag was but a gag. :-/

Not only would that be stupid beyond belief, we have confirmation from Atia.

This release is still baffling none the less

 oldzoggy wrote:

Spoiler:

Unchanged. That's a relief.

Spoiler:

That's a 90pt Immolator in the Elites slot. Unintentionally useful, but useful nonetheless.

Spoiler:

Silly Detachments, but with 90pts Immolators in the Elites slot now the "Vestal Task Force" maybe isn't as bad as it looks.

Still bad, though.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Would it have taken more than 5 minutes to actually come up with a few formations for AS beyond the pile of crap they were given - they could have copied and pasted some of the million Marine ones - but again - they couldn't be bothered.

Well, here's what adding a new formation to the book involves;

- Make sure it fits in the book - page counts aren't arbitrary; adding new stuff affects binding and price point. You may have to add three new things to justify adding one!
- Come up with an idea for a formation that is justified by both rules and background. Come up with a name you haven't already used for something else.
- Write the rules and background. Go through the copy-editing process for both.
- Playtest the rules.
- Refine wording as needed, copy-edit again.
- Playtest revised version. As formations don't have points in 40K, ensure the unit tax is sufficient to justify its abilities.
- Photograph the miniatures. You might need to get some more painted depending on how extreme the formation's composition is (how many Susters with heavy weapons are in the studio cabinet anyway?).
- Design the page layout. Refine wording again to save space.
- Ensure contents page is now accurate.
- Edit other background to include references to the formation.
- Put together a proposed bundle for the webstore.
- Account for inventory, coding, packaging etc. for the above.
- Add the bundle to the website.
- Add the bundle to the promotional material.

Obviously they could just format it as a single paragraph somewhere and not bother with any of that stuff, but all of the above is how GW present a datasheet currently. The cost is hardly negligible. Obviously many of the steps would be integrated into the overall project plan if it was accounted for from day one, but even then there still has to be a viable return for the investment.

Rocks are not free, citizen.

Thommy H wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Would it have taken more than 5 minutes to actually come up with a few formations for AS beyond the pile of crap they were given - they could have copied and pasted some of the million Marine ones - but again - they couldn't be bothered.

Well, here's what adding a new formation to the book involves;

- Make sure it fits in the book - page counts aren't arbitrary; adding new stuff affects binding and price point. You may have to add three new things to justify adding one!
- Come up with an idea for a formation that is justified by both rules and background. Come up with a name you haven't already used for something else.
- Write the rules and background. Go through the copy-editing process for both.
- Playtest the rules.
- Refine wording as needed, copy-edit again.
- Playtest revised version. As formations don't have points in 40K, ensure the unit tax is sufficient to justify its abilities.
- Photograph the miniatures. You might need to get some more painted depending on how extreme the formation's composition is (how many Susters with heavy weapons are in the studio cabinet anyway?).
- Design the page layout. Refine wording again to save space.
- Ensure contents page is now accurate.
- Edit other background to include references to the formation.
- Put together a proposed bundle for the webstore.
- Account for inventory, coding, packaging etc. for the above.
- Add the bundle to the website.
- Add the bundle to the promotional material.

Obviously they could just format it as a single paragraph somewhere and not bother with any of that stuff, but all of the above is how GW present a datasheet currently. The cost is hardly negligible. Obviously many of the steps would be integrated into the overall project plan if it was accounted for from day one, but even then there still has to be a viable return for the investment.

Rocks are not free, citizen.

Really - looking at the other formations realeased for the power dexes do you really think they are playtested?

They aready went down the single paragrapgh route and gave a crap formation with exactly none of the above steps except formating.

Thommy H wrote:
Well, here's what adding a new formation to the book involves

... but the Vestal Task Force is just a CAD with a compulsory Elites choice and a random Detachment benefit ("pray for salvation"?). I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, but I could've come up with "CAD plus mandatory Elites plus reroll 1s to save once per game" in about 5 minutes. I don't think you need to playtest that to know it'll be helpful without making the army very much more powerful than it normally is either.

You can focus on a single step if you like, but you'll need to account for all of them to reduce the overall effort required to five minutes of spitballing.

Thommy H wrote:
You can focus on a single step if you like, but you'll need to account for all of them to reduce the overall effort required to five minutes of spitballing.

Make sure it fits in the book - page counts aren't arbitrary; adding new stuff affects binding and price point. You may have to add three new things to justify adding one!
- Come up with an idea for a formation that is justified by both rules and background. Come up with a name you haven't already used for something else. Names and formations as well as images already in Sheild of Baal
- Write the rules and background. Go through the copy-editing process for both. Background written, rules - 5 mins
- Playtest the rules. They don;t bother
- Refine wording as needed, copy-edit again. See above
- Playtest revised version. As formations don't have points in 40K, ensure the unit tax is sufficient to justify its abilities. See above
- Photograph the miniatures. You might need to get some more painted depending on how extreme the formation's composition is (how many Susters with heavy weapons are in the studio cabinet anyway?). Already done
- Design the page layout. Refine wording again to save space. Or just put in a paragraph if they want to be really disinterested - as they seem to be
- Ensure contents page is now accurate. yep - a min
- Edit other background to include references to the formation. See above
- Put together a proposed bundle for the webstore. They are not bothering
- Account for inventory, coding, packaging etc. for the above. see above
- Add the bundle to the website. See above
- Add the bundle to the promotional material. See above

So to make a far superior formation supported in fluff and with imagery - maybe half an hour. To just do what they did already but actually make it worthwhile - 5-10 mins tops =- likely more time than they spent on it - and it shows

If there are already formations in Shield of Baal, what are you complaining about?

Thommy H wrote:
If there are already formations in Shield of Baal, what are you complaining about?

URGHH -there are NOT formations - however there is amply background text that can be made into formations - single paragraphs with images. You know the stuff you said they needed,.

Sisters have zero formations outside of CIA Codex.

I play inquisition and sisters already and never use the saint.

You all are trying to start fights and I am just happy to get a a consoldated codex with some new rules.

Sisters did not need much to be more competative, they already did pretty well for them selves.

 sfshilo wrote:
I play inquisition and sisters already and never use the saint.

You all are trying to start fights and I am just happy to get a a consoldated codex with some new rules.

Sisters did not need much to be more competative, they already did pretty well for them selves.

Really - so other Codexes need formations but Sisters don;t - the Eldar NEEDED their formations, The necrons NEEDED their formations etc. Or are they ok without them ? One rule for some armies and Screw the rest?

Why do Sisters not need theirs?

Re St C - it was a choice to play her or not - choice has been removed.

Complaining about giving money over for something one doesn't think is good enough, but still going to give them the money anyway, perhaps?

I'm sad, because I never got to field Celestine in front of a Death Company squad. Oh well.
To repeat a point, Celestine is the type of character that has been made Lord of War in other codices... there weren't any other Lords of War in the book. It's not all doom. 90 point Immolators? That a great blocker for a melta dominion squad in their own Immolator.
Onto the name of the detachment

Vestigial - adj; forming a very small remnant of something that was once much larger or more noticeable

I think that this is either a mean-spirited joke, or a hint that something more is coming.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Complaining about giving money over for something one doesn't think is good enough, but still going to give them the money anyway, perhaps?

Sadly its a loose / loose proposition.

Don't buy - people are not interested in Sisters
Do buy - we can shovel any kind of craop and its all fine.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Thommy H wrote:
If there are already formations in Shield of Baal, what are you complaining about?

URGHH -there are NOT formations - however there is amply background text that can be made into formations - single paragraphs with images. You know the stuff you said they needed,.

Sisters have zero formations outside of CIA Codex.

Right, so they do have to create some new material then? Even if it's copied and pasted from another source, there's still additional work to required. Again, the minimum you can add to a book is four pages at a time. It's not a simple case of coming up with an idea and then it magically appears in the book.

Regardless of your opinion on GW's quality control, there's still a process. They have specific photos of formations, for example. They create bespoke page layouts. And writing rules and background isn't as straightforward as you seem to think it is.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Complaining about giving money over for something one doesn't think is good enough, but still going to give them the money anyway, perhaps?

Sadly its a loose / loose proposition.

Don't buy - people are not interested in Sisters
Do buy - we can shovel any kind of craop and its all fine.

I think the interest in sisters is more than covered by the new model selling like it is. They just can't keep it in stock and it's not even out yet.

Thommy H wrote:

Well, here's what adding a new formation to the book involves;

- Make sure it fits in the book - page counts aren't arbitrary; adding new stuff affects binding and price point. You may have to add three new things to justify adding one!
- Come up with an idea for a formation that is justified by both rules and background. Come up with a name you haven't already used for something else.
- Write the rules and background. Go through the copy-editing process for both.

Absolutely this is true and standard for any publication.

- Playtest the rules.
- Refine wording as needed, copy-edit again.
- Playtest revised version. As formations don't have points in 40K, ensure the unit tax is sufficient to justify its abilities.

I don't think GW playtests anything and they definitely don't go back and make changes. Case in point the Flash Gitz formation. Nobody in their right mind playtested shooting with a 20 flash gitz unit with master crafted assault 3 guns and thought "yep this plays out just fine and is not a royal pain in the rear to roll for". Not trying to be a jerk but GW is notoriously poor at rules writing and their lack of care in RAW interactions and balance is legendarily bad.

- Photograph the miniatures. You might need to get some more painted depending on how extreme the formation's composition is (how many Susters with heavy weapons are in the studio cabinet anyway?).
- Design the page layout. Refine wording again to save space.
- Ensure contents page is now accurate.
- Edit other background to include references to the formation.

Standard for any entry they create and given the very cut and paste nature of a lot of their books it wouldn't take an extraordinarily long period of time to put it all together. Look at the rules for the looted wagon having a unit composition of 1 Gorkanaut, cyber wolves being T4 in the original 7th edition SW codex, gets hot on volley guns in the MT codex, etc. Quality control for their publications is not extremely precise at GW.

- Put together a proposed bundle for the webstore.
- Account for inventory, coding, packaging etc. for the above.
- Add the bundle to the website.
- Add the bundle to the promotional material.

Most formations don't receive any marketing material or bundles.

Obviously they could just format it as a single paragraph somewhere and not bother with any of that stuff, but all of the above is how GW present a datasheet currently. The cost is hardly negligible. Obviously many of the steps would be integrated into the overall project plan if it was accounted for from day one, but even then there still has to be a viable return for the investment.

Rocks are not free, citizen.

End of the day GW is putting together books that cost a lot of money when compared to other printed media out on the market and the lack of effort they put into some of their printed products is often times staggering. Its not asking for the impossible for GW to actually add new real content to their expensive rule books.

Thommy H wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Thommy H wrote:
If there are already formations in Shield of Baal, what are you complaining about?

URGHH -there are NOT formations - however there is amply background text that can be made into formations - single paragraphs with images. You know the stuff you said they needed,.

Sisters have zero formations outside of CIA Codex.

Right, so they do have to create some new material then? Even if it's copied and pasted from another source, there's still additional work to required. Again, the minimum you can add to a book is four pages at a time. It's not a simple case of coming up with an idea and then it magically appears in the book.

Regardless of your opinion on GW's quality control, there's still a process. They have specific photos of formations, for example. They create bespoke page layouts. And writing rules and background isn't as straightforward as you seem to think it is.

AS I SAID =- the bare minimum is all they did - they published crap formation in a single a paragrapgh - its ion the fething thread if you have not seen it

no pics, no backgorund., no bundle, sweet FA Dream all you want about playtesting and such but its clear from the actual published rules that this does not happen - not for this codex and not for the Power dexes.

WHAT I SIAD they could do is use the Shield of Baal boks to make a massively superiorversion of the crap they did do.

But it's still not five minutes of extra effort is it?

Thommy H wrote:
But it's still not five minutes of extra effort is it?

FFS is that you only point - the exact amount of time taken - well thanks for wasting my time.[u] and yeah it would take about that long - want to get a stopwatch

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Complaining about giving money over for something one doesn't think is good enough, but still going to give them the money anyway, perhaps?

Sadly its a loose / loose proposition.

Don't buy - people are not interested in Sisters
Do buy - we can shovel any kind of craop and its all fine.

Or just DIY and take ownership hobby into your own hands. It only takes 5 mins to do something.

My point is that just banging out an idea is one step on a long process of getting something into print. I'm speaking as an author myself. You can look at any page in a Codex and see that it's a result of more than a single conversation, right? You can see the photography, the design, the reprographics, yeah?

It isn't just a matter of having an idea. There's a cost associated with adding even a single page to a physical publication. They may, quite seriously, just not have had the room at the current price point.

 Vankraken wrote:

End of the day GW is putting together books that cost a lot of money when compared to other printed media out on the market and the lack of effort they put into some of their printed products is often times staggering. Its not asking for the impossible for GW to actually add new real content to their expensive rule books.

They don't have to, they have a captive audience who will buy on command and then spend their time complaining about it.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
I'm sad, because I never got to field Celestine in front of a Death Company squad. Oh well.
To repeat a point, Celestine is the type of character that has been made Lord of War in other codices... there weren't any other Lords of War in the book. It's not all doom. 90 point Immolators? That a great blocker for a melta dominion squad in their own Immolator.
Onto the name of the detachment

Vestigial - adj; forming a very small remnant of something that was once much larger or more noticeable

I think that this is either a mean-spirited joke, or a hint that something more is coming.

Vestal not vestigial.

Also, the detachment is strictly worse than a car. No ob sec.

 Anpu-adom wrote:

Vestigial - adj; forming a very small remnant of something that was once much larger or more noticeable

I think that this is either a mean-spirited joke, or a hint that something more is coming.

Uh, I thought it was "Vestal", not "Vestigial"?

noun: vestal; plural noun: vestals

1.
a vestal virgin.
literary
a chaste woman, especially a nun.

Like the time and effort put into the Heldrake formation.....




If we can endeavour to keep the tone a bit more civil please.

Thank you.


SoB player in our group nearly always run the Saint, and often to great affect in my experience.

Her in a unit of seraphim was quite nasty at times.

So her going is, understandably, annoying.

had --admittedly optimistic -- hopes....? ...daydreams ..?? ... about them allowing Vet. superiors to take an eviscerator once again

... really should know better by now.