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For those who said Lucius : if Lucius take her place, it means that he LOST, therefore, that she WON. It doesn't answer the question of the thread, which can be translated as : Name one character that is able to out-class Lelith in close combat. And IMO Lucius would get raped by Lelith in that aspect. They play too much on the same skillset (speed and skills) even though he is Astarte (with a strength a thoughness advantage he doesn't put forward), in which Lelith is vastly superior.

Engrenages wrote:
For those who said Lucius : if Lucius take her place, it means that he LOST, therefore, that she WON. It doesn't answer the question of the thread, which can be translated as : Name one character that is able to out-class Lelith in close combat. And IMO Lucius would get raped by Lelith in that aspect. They play too much on the same skillset (speed and skills) even though he is Astarte (with a strength a thoughness advantage he doesn't put forward), in which Lelith is vastly superior.

Lucius has a noize siren. Try to avoid that! ©

Indrick Boreale.

Can someone explain why the primarchs would beat her

Marbo tosses a demo charge at her.

I think Valdor would have a fair chance. Didn't he beat Horus in a duel once?

Smashf*cker Prime could kick their ass


also the legion of the damned kicked her ass already so there is that.

If we're going by the fluff, I think a lot of the duels here are really selling Lelith short.

Not only has she survived in the arenas of Commorragh since before Vect rose to power, but she's done that while getting struck precisely once.

She's been fighting for much longer than (nearly) all of the fighters listed up here and only a single fighter has ever managed to touch her. She's that fast. Not 'she got hit by a thunder hammer but her power armour saved her'. Not 'the enemy's sword pierced through her arm, but in a feat of martial strength

For in excess of 8000 years she has been fighting the most dangerous things the Dark Eldar can lay their hands on, day-in day-out, without a scratch. Oh, and all the while equipped with knives, pointy hair, a latex bikini and a zero-tolerance policy to combat drugs.

Going by the fluff, I can't see much below daemon-prince Angron, or Magnus with psychic shenanigans, having the odds of beating her.

Oh, and as for the Grand Harlequin, she was more intrigued by the fact that she might lose, rather than certain that she would...

She's badass

That's an arena and we are talking about warfare.

That's why on the tabletop she's pretty much never good in any situation. Every character has feats like that. Calgar lifted a Pylon and used it to shoot gak.

Also the easy answer is Typhus. She can't wear him out because he's just a pile of ooze and has the benefits of being a Psyker and insane durability. On the tabletop this translates as well.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
If we're going by the fluff, I think a lot of the duels here are really selling Lelith short.

Not only has she survived in the arenas of Commorragh since before Vect rose to power, but she's done that while getting struck precisely once.

She's been fighting for much longer than (nearly) all of the fighters listed up here and only a single fighter has ever managed to touch her. She's that fast. Not 'she got hit by a thunder hammer but her power armour saved her'. Not 'the enemy's sword pierced through her arm, but in a feat of martial strength

For in excess of 8000 years she has been fighting the most dangerous things the Dark Eldar can lay their hands on, day-in day-out, without a scratch. Oh, and all the while equipped with knives, pointy hair, a latex bikini and a zero-tolerance policy to combat drugs.

Going by the fluff, I can't see much below daemon-prince Angron, or Magnus with psychic shenanigans, having the odds of beating her.

Oh, and as for the Grand Harlequin, she was more intrigued by the fact that she might lose, rather than certain that she would...

She's badass

Your forgetting one thing.....smashf*ucker does not care, he will smash you any ways.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's an arena and we are talking about warfare.

That's why on the tabletop she's pretty much never good in any situation. Every character has feats like that. Calgar lifted a Pylon and used it to shoot gak.

Also the easy answer is Typhus. She can't wear him out because he's just a pile of ooze and has the benefits of being a Psyker and insane durability. On the tabletop this translates as well.

We're not talking about warfare, we're talking about a 1-on-1 duel, which is exactly what happens in an arena. It's exactly her playing field.

Calgar lifted a Pylon and used it to shoot stuff? Oh good lord. Whoever wrote that should hang their heads in shame. Saying that, it's not like it's an individual feat that someone wrote about her in a dubious-quality BL book. It's the sole foundation of her character.

I'm not sure Typhus would have a chance, aside from the psyker stuff. He might be fantastically durable, but if he can't hit her she'll still chop him up into itty little bits.

However, after gushing about her, something's struck me. Given the nature of the Dark Eldar, and the risk that psykers pose in Commorragh, I doubt they'd let captives in the arenas use their psychic powers. If there's anything that could be used to best her, it'd have to be that rather than martial skill.

That is going on fluff though. Personally, I'd agree with you on the rules front. Lelith's rules seem to be tailor-made for mulching up hordes in short order rather than duelling.

 Backspacehacker wrote:


Your forgetting one thing.....smashf*ucker does not care, he will smash you any ways.

Yeah if we go by the crunch there's not much that can stand against Chapter Master Smashf*cker...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:


Wouldn't she still enjoy killing him? Just because you've been something for a long freaking time doesn't mean it can't be enjoyed.

I actually disagree that the tabletop is the defining setting. If scatbikes were as strong as they were on the tabletop, Eldar would conquer the galaxy, and if the tyranids were as woefully as ineffective in the fluff thats another xenos species that won't matter to the imperium. As a balancing factor, it isn't that screwed, but I am sure that Lelith could best a daemon prince. a main reason I'm gonna grab her model up, she is the best of the best, WS9 doesn't cut the mustard imho when it comes to fluff representation

Depends if he put up a good enough fight. If it was utterly trivial, she might not feel anything.

Only might, mind you. Not an absolute statement.

The thing about the tabletop is it depicts the exceptionally rare circumstance that the forces on either side are (supposed to be) evenly matched.

Eldar could conquer the galaxy, if there wasn't a bajillion guardsmen for every Scatbike they can muster.

The Tyranids are woefully ineffective on an individual basis, but overwhelm their enemies by dropping a planet's-weight of biomorphs on their heads and syphoning up the resultant human-paste.

Ideally, the codices would actually be balanced against each other to accurately represent equally powerful forces on the tabletop, but that's primarily a points-costing mechanic. I truly believe that a T4 marine is tougher than a T3 Guardsman, but not quite as resistant to harm as a T5 Grotesque. It might be a little course a scale, but it works

Then, of course, there's some codex changes that do seem a little odd (like muscle-bound genetically-altered Kroot being as strong as guardsmen), but I suppose I'll be accused of being selective there

As for Lelith's WS9, it's not that that makes her so deadly on the tabletop. It's the disarm special rule. Pretty hard for Abaddon to win that duel when Drach'nyen's halfway down a gully somewhere.

Less skill, more technique...

Very valid points good sir

 gummyofallbears wrote:


Very valid points good sir

Thanks man

Would have been better if I hadn't mixed up Lelith's special rule for Jain Zar's...

Lelith's is one where for every point of WS she has above her enemy's, she gains an extra attack. More of a horde-mulcher...

YneadWraith

Do you think she could even beat pre-heresy Emperor in an all out fight?

Nah, psychic

That does depend on whether the pre-heresy Emperor was as is written and not propaganda/religious dogma of course

Tanked up Horus would probably nuke her as well. Same with Sanguinius (wasn't he supposed to be an exceptional swordfighter. Did well enough against tanked-up Horus either way).

LightKing wrote:
YneadWraith

Do you think she could even beat pre-heresy Emperor in an all out fight?

The Emperor would literally just think her out of existence

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Nah, psychic

That does depend on whether the pre-heresy Emperor was as is written and not propaganda/religious dogma of course

Tanked up Horus would probably nuke her as well. Same with Sanguinius (wasn't he supposed to be an exceptional swordfighter. Did well enough against tanked-up Horus either way).

i guess she would get destroyed by any alpha level or above psyker..Tigurius, Mephiston, Draigo, Malcador, Magnus etc.

Quite possibly yeah, given that she's got no defence against it (other than chopping them up before they can cast).

My previous comment about Draigo still stands though

LightKing wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Nah, psychic

That does depend on whether the pre-heresy Emperor was as is written and not propaganda/religious dogma of course

Tanked up Horus would probably nuke her as well. Same with Sanguinius (wasn't he supposed to be an exceptional swordfighter. Did well enough against tanked-up Horus either way).

i guess she would get destroyed by any alpha level or above psyker..Tigurius, Mephiston, Draigo, Malcador, Magnus etc.

Well even a Beta would wreck her, Delta/Gamma would be a serious challenge if trained in battle situations (depending on the nature of their powers, they may not be fast enough andj ust get cut before they can muster the focus to use them).

I wonder how 'quick-draw' psychic powers are...

Not something we'd really have the answer to in the fluff, but it'd be her only chance against a powerful psyker.

That's in the absence of me knowing any fluff stories where she fights a psyker. I know the Legion of the Damned proved troublesome...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose we should establish something first: what the defences are against psychic assault.

Is it purely stuff like psychic hoods, crucibles of malediction and other such stuff, or can 'force of will' prohibit a psychic attack

I suppose that's what the Adamantium Will special rule is, which I don't think Lelith has.

So, odd position she's in. Will chop anything non-psyker (or not quick enough on the draw psyker-wise), but Fateweaver with his WS2 would blow her brains out.

I suppose Fateweaver with his WS2 would blow most people's brains out tbh...

Engrenages wrote:

LightKing wrote:
YneadWraith

Do you think she could even beat pre-heresy Emperor in an all out fight?

The Emperor would literally just think her out of existence

I think if the Emperor didn't use psykic powers(probably by choice, as there is no real way to suppress a psyker of that power) she would have a good chance. Big E wasnt a fantastic fighter, sure he was alright, but he wasnt exceptionally quick or powerful.

If he did use psykic powers, she would be toast.

The Emperor was a crazy invincible close combatant- better than Sanguinius (who is only bested by Horus because of all the bloodthirsters he'd been fighting). The emperor can use his psychic powers from across the universe, so if buff casting was really all he was good for, he'd never have boarded Horus' ship.

As for psykers, the 2nd ed inquisitor summons a vortex and she is obliterated. Same goes for Grey Knights She has a 5+ save to dispel it- so long as she has the right cards that turn. No save vs. the actual vortex (we do not care how invulnerable your save is). Hell, we could just have a swooping hawk with a vortex grenade (which , by the way, beasts absolutely anything ever, due to their ability to be non-targetable until they drop their all-things-die-with-no-save grenade.

LightKing wrote:
Can someone explain why the primarchs would beat her

Because I've never heard of Lelith deciding that the Kraken that wraps itself around all of Fenris was too small and needed to be thrown back. Honestly, Russ's fluff is pretty far past the invincible level that most primarchs aspire to. I mean, no one gets close to Russ' fluff- not even the other invincible close combatants like Angron and Kharn.

That's the trouble with the fluff- there are a lot of superlative invincible warriors out there. A good number of them are actually the best close combatants that there have ever been (and I guess the universe is just large enough that it doesn't matter that the west has over a dozen fastest guns). She's far from the first 'bestest warrior ever' and she won't be the last.


And honestly, I don't see how she's any more unbeatable than any of those other unbeatable characters. I mean, stat-wise (which is fluff) she's not really better than a Harlequin Solitaire. And according to the rules, an Avatar is simply better than her at close combat (WS9 vs WS10- meaning the Av is the more skilled with a CC weapon). The movie marine sergeant would kick her ass (and remember- movie marines are fluff corrected statlines that all space marines should have in comparison to everything else in the game). Even Jain Zarr would kill her on the charge, and she ranks pretty low on the bestfighterometer.

LightKing wrote:
Can someone explain why the primarchs would beat her

They are basically unstoppable demi gods that's why. Even the weakest primarch fighter, Lorgar, beat a Bloodthirster. They are utter monsters that Lelith could in no way compete with

Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.

I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?



But we do have stats for Angron

He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.

In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.

Many named characters or powerful entities would probably have fun breaking every bone in her body or dismembering her integrally. She's really not that much of a powerful character.

 TheLumberJack wrote:

LightKing wrote:
Can someone explain why the primarchs would beat her

They are basically unstoppable demi gods that's why. Even the weakest primarch fighter, Lorgar, beat a Bloodthirster. They are utter monsters that Lelith could in no way compete with

Except that they would never be able to hit her in the first place.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.

I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?



But we do have stats for Angron

He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.

In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.

How does initiative compare, though? Her only big advantage against a Primarch is going to be speed, anyway, so that's kind of important.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
If we're going by the fluff, I think a lot of the duels here are really selling Lelith short.

Not only has she survived in the arenas of Commorragh since before Vect rose to power, but she's done that while getting struck precisely once.

She's been fighting for much longer than (nearly) all of the fighters listed up here and only a single fighter has ever managed to touch her. She's that fast. Not 'she got hit by a thunder hammer but her power armour saved her'. Not 'the enemy's sword pierced through her arm, but in a feat of martial strength

For in excess of 8000 years she has been fighting the most dangerous things the Dark Eldar can lay their hands on, day-in day-out, without a scratch. Oh, and all the while equipped with knives, pointy hair, a latex bikini and a zero-tolerance policy to combat drugs.

Going by the fluff, I can't see much below daemon-prince Angron, or Magnus with psychic shenanigans, having the odds of beating her.

Oh, and as for the Grand Harlequin, she was more intrigued by the fact that she might lose, rather than certain that she would...

She's badass

Finally, some one gets it. Short of Primarcks, there are no named Space Marine characters here that are remotely capable of matching her 1 on 1 in a fight, she's just too fast and too skilled for them and is very much capable of finding a way to get her blades between those power armour plates.

Psychers are a no go though, like any Dark Eldar she has no deffence against that.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

LightKing wrote:
Can someone explain why the primarchs would beat her

They are basically unstoppable demi gods that's why. Even the weakest primarch fighter, Lorgar, beat a Bloodthirster. They are utter monsters that Lelith could in no way compete with

Except that they would never be able to hit her in the first place.

The Primarchs were all incredibly fast as well, much faster than space marines. Ones like Angron could blindly swing until he hit her, magnus could crush her with his mind, etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Robin5t wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Oh, and she's got nothing against actual armor, so a dreadnought just wrecks her.

I'd go with that CC specialist Space Wolf one with the cheesy name- what was it? Murder-something- maybe Murderface?



But we do have stats for Angron

He's WS9 (her equal) Str 7 (WAY BETTER) with 6 Attacks (also better). He's toughness 6, which means she will have a really hard time hurting him, while he's more than doubled her toughness, so if one of those 6 attacks connects (and they do on a 4+) she has died.

In fact, her statline seems to reflect her ability to pick on those weaker than her.. But she really can't stand up to someone on her skill level.

How does initiative compare, though? Her only big advantage against a Primarch is going to be speed, anyway, so that's kind of important.

His initiative is 7, I have no idea what Liliths is

Corswain, Sigismund, Argel Tal in GV mode?
Who was the guy Talos used to square off against in the cage fights in the Soul Hunter series?