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ted234521 wrote:


Yes, a great marine duelist. Primarchs are orders of magnitude more powerful than even a marine chapter master, and far more well engineered. There's a reason why the Emperor opted to mass produce marines and not primarchs; he couldn't. Every primarch represented a unique and irrecoverable investment. You don't hear about stock standard power armor dudes taking on entire armies at the eternity gate, beating down the favored bloodthirster of khorne or killing the emperor himself.

Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Agreed. We've established that she'd probably get rofl-stomped by Primarchs and most powerful psykers. 100%.

Yeah, primarchs are a no-go.

Beyond the emperor himself, maybe one of the Beast guys, and any more favoured children of the gods like that primordial Bloodthirster dude (forget his name) it's probably a lot safer to call down an orbital strike and wipe the continent.

Do necrons have that lightning thing still?Pretty sure she'd lose if hitting her opponent meant she gets fried. Heck I wonder if she could do much vs Obyron, that guy was getting cut up by one of the Khans but he just kept repairing for hours. Pretty sure Lilith would be fighting up hill against that nonsense with the way she fights.

Is Old One Eye still about? What's his regeneration like?

I suspect "unknown" the best astartes duelist might have A) been talking about loyalists. B) might not take into account things like the Grey Knights who are suppose to be a secret and other exceptional scenarios like that. I think Crow has the skill in duelist stance it's just a shame he is fighting his own weapon at the same time. Because of that I'd give that one to Lill heck she may even come out of it stronger depending on how the sword works. EDIT: apparently the duel with the marine champion may not even be so straight forward.

I'd say it would be a draw against Lukas the Trickster .

The assassins have a similar invulnerable save credited to dodging so I'd say they are almost as fast, at least enough that she couldn't count on speed alone. Less skilled but physically stronger. Combine this with the etherium-soulless one two combo I'd back the Culexus just because they are similar on a physical level but she would struggle to actually target it.

If a Wolf lord is wearing the exothermic armor of Russ her speed is potentially negated.

Just cutting a plague marine seems kind of dangerous, who knows what gasses those guys might have in them.

Orikan seems like he could do it but not in a fair fight. Combining his time travel bull crap with his staff that hits+ before he swings it, even if she beat him I'd hazard he has some trick to go back and just do over until "the stars are right".

Any one with any sort of "aura" type defense or reactive defense seems like a bit of a hurdle for her. Pretty sure anyone that can fly and has a gun has a distinct advantage. Quoting her arena history is kind of sketchy at best, for example I've done boxing and in a boxing ring I was matched against opponents in the name of competition. I doubt they'd put Lilith in the ring with someone she couldn't possibly beat despite the fact there is probably foes out there that fit that description.

These are just a few I think could do it not necessarily because they are as fast or strong but because they have some way to offset her speed or skill.

ted234521 wrote:


Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.

A quite pissed Wraithlord slaugthered all of Fullgrim personal guard and almost killed him (The demonic sword he had saved Fullgrim from a sure death) so Lore wise, even Primarchs can be quite weak against the right plot armour.

To OP: a Dominatrix. The Tyranid one. Also, Sly Marbo.

ted234521 wrote:
Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.

A Dominatrix. The Tyranid one. Also Sly Marbo.

Lord Perversor wrote:

ted234521 wrote:


Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.

A quite pissed Wraithlord slaugthered all of Fullgrim personal guard and almost killed him (The demonic sword he had saved Fullgrim from a sure death) so Lore wise, even Primarchs can be quite weak against the right plot armour.

Yea, when stuff like that occurs I use the rational that special character marines are so much better than basic marines, so the [thing] who did [ridiculous feat #11234] was the top tier special character version of [thing].

Nebulas1 wrote:
Pretty sure anyone that can fly and has a gun has a distinct advantage. Quoting her arena history is kind of sketchy at best, for example I've done boxing and in a boxing ring I was matched against opponents in the name of competition. I doubt they'd put Lilith in the ring with someone she couldn't possibly beat despite the fact there is probably foes out there that fit that description.

That's the thing - she fights arena battles that are supposed to give the Dork Eldar their jollies from bloodshed and pain. Arena battles where opponents are totally chanceless probably wouldn't be very exciting, but passing out guns or grenades to just anyone won't do. Who's to say a combatant wouldn't decide to go apeshit on the audience instead of Lelith? So IMO the question of real war vs arena doesn't normally even come up because she only fights in the arena. Gladiatorial fights are supposed to be even in some way (unless it's executing criminals, but that would be boring for both Lelith and the audience).

But I guess some rival could manage to rig the fight a bit - providing an opponent with better combat drugs or a surprise weapon doesn't sound too farfetched in the backstabbing Deldar society. What better way to get rid of a rival than making sure that rival dies in such an embarrassing way that he'll never be able to show his face in Comorragh again even if resurrected? So Lelith has probably survived a few rigged fights too over the years...

Spetulhu wrote:

Nebulas1 wrote:
Pretty sure anyone that can fly and has a gun has a distinct advantage. Quoting her arena history is kind of sketchy at best, for example I've done boxing and in a boxing ring I was matched against opponents in the name of competition. I doubt they'd put Lilith in the ring with someone she couldn't possibly beat despite the fact there is probably foes out there that fit that description.

That's the thing - she fights arena battles that are supposed to give the Dork Eldar their jollies from bloodshed and pain. Arena battles where opponents are totally chanceless probably wouldn't be very exciting, but passing out guns or grenades to just anyone won't do. Who's to say a combatant wouldn't decide to go apeshit on the audience instead of Lelith? So IMO the question of real war vs arena doesn't normally even come up because she only fights in the arena. Gladiatorial fights are supposed to be even in some way (unless it's executing criminals, but that would be boring for both Lelith and the audience).

But I guess some rival could manage to rig the fight a bit - providing an opponent with better combat drugs or a surprise weapon doesn't sound too farfetched in the backstabbing Deldar society. What better way to get rid of a rival than making sure that rival dies in such an embarrassing way that he'll never be able to show his face in Comorragh again even if resurrected? So Lelith has probably survived a few rigged fights too over the years...

As you've mentioned, I don't think the Dark Eldar arena is as easy going as people have made it out to be. Pain, death and suffering will nourish Dark Eldar regardless where it comes from, and for them I'd expect seeing quite a notable Wych get splatted would be equally as entertaining. Where's the fun and excitement if there isn't mortal danger involved?

I would agree that it's unlikely that they'd hand out guns and grenades (although again, if they turned on the audience the Dark Eldar would probably find their compatriots getting blown to smithereens funny more than anything). However, it's not as if they're up against squishy humans with spears. For example, they've captured Carnifexes for the arena before. Not exactly a stacked fight that one...

Also, I'm not certain where people have got the idea from that Lelith only ever stays in the arena. For one, we wouldn't have rules for her use on the tabletop if that was the case. Like any Wych, she accompanies Kabals on realspace raids frequently. For one instance, she's participated in an attack on an Alpha Legion fortress and dueled the CSM Lord there.

Ultimately, I do think the crunch is where the kernel of truth lies for these sorts of things. It's the only truly statistical way that we can analyse someone's martial prowess, and Lelith comes up short compared to a number of other characters. If only she'd use a shadowfield...

I know you guys said she wouldn't have a chance against the primarchs

but she could at least possibly beat at least a low tier primarch like Lorgar

right?

LightKing wrote:
I know you guys said she wouldn't have a chance against the primarchs

but she could at least possibly beat at least a low tier primarch like Lorgar

right?

No, even the weakest Primarch is a demi god engineered to stand above pretty much anything they could encounter, and geared with the best equipment produced by Mankind. Lorgar's battling skill may not match Lelith's, but he's no slouch either, and one of his blow would be enough to kill her three times over. And I'm confident he's got the skills and the toughness (+ armor) to last until he manage to hit her.

I'm not certain. Primarchs are pretty OP. It's a bit of a theme of the 40k universe that the warriors, technology and overall power level of the past is greater than what's around now. That key theme is pretty much everywhere you look.

If she was a little more Reasonable Marines and took a Shadowfield and an Archite Glaive then perhaps

LightKing wrote:
Isn't she like the best combatant in all of the history of the 40k universe. Her skill is unmatched

Could at least have linked to my original thread.

More or less stole the thread title too.

I honestly had no idea it was this difficult coming up with your own content.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'm not certain. Primarchs are pretty OP. It's a bit of a theme of the 40k universe that the warriors, technology and overall power level of the past is greater than what's around now. That key theme is pretty much everywhere you look.

If she was a little more Reasonable Marines and took a Shadowfield and an Archite Glaive then perhaps

thats a fair point

LightKing wrote:
I know you guys said she wouldn't have a chance against the primarchs

but she could at least possibly beat at least a low tier primarch like Lorgar

right?

Lorgar I'm pretty sure killed an Avatar with not too much effort and killed the big bad Bloodthirster.
Um, no. Lelith can not kill any primarch.

Worst fanwanking thread ever.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

LightKing wrote:
I know you guys said she wouldn't have a chance against the primarchs

but she could at least possibly beat at least a low tier primarch like Lorgar

right?

Lorgar I'm pretty sure killed an Avatar with not too much effort and killed the big bad Bloodthirster.
Um, no. Lelith can not kill any primarch.

Worst fanwanking thread ever.

All of this fanwanking goes both ways it's apply to for primarch fanboys.

Lore wise, some of them had serious issues beating a custodes due how good they are. Yet lore wise a Shadowseer was able to dance in and kick a lot of custodes asses before being subdued.

And according to lore Shadowseer are gimps compared to the raw lethality a Grand Harlequin or even a Solitarie can bring.. and there is a piece of lore where Lelith consider that facing a Grand Harlequin can be a close match that she is amused by the possibility of been defeated.

So unless a novel properly comes out and put a real fight it's just fanbase speculation one way or another.


P.S: most of this post are just raw speculation, bring theory and suggest possiblities for the shake of discussion but don't get to blind on *your* absolute belief.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

LightKing wrote:
I know you guys said she wouldn't have a chance against the primarchs

but she could at least possibly beat at least a low tier primarch like Lorgar

right?

Lorgar I'm pretty sure killed an Avatar with not too much effort and killed the big bad Bloodthirster.
Um, no. Lelith can not kill any primarch.

Worst fanwanking thread ever.

While I agree that Primarchs are too much for Lelith...

Avatars have a tendency to die like a two-bit conscript whenever the protagonist of a novel sneezes at them. Killing one is not an impressive feat.

LightKing wrote:
Isn't she like the best combatant in all of the history of the 40k universe. Her skill is unmatched

Assassin with a quality sniper rifle.
Your average Joe Schmo pushing the button on the orbital bombardment,
A Titan's foot.
A Leman's crush and grind.

Combat with pointy sticks is for chumps. Real combat masters drop ordnance.

Bobthehero wrote:Movie Marines are Marines stats if they were the protagonist of an action movie, hence the movie part.

Ah- if you read the article, you'll find that it is about the novels and fluff- they get a lot of comments about how badass guys are in the books, but their statlines don't represent this. He ways that the fluff exaggerates the power level of characters in the same way as action movies do, and implies that the 40k rules represent their actual abilities.

Basically, they're saying that all Black Library fiction is to the 40k Universe what a John Woo Film is to reality.

Lord Perversor wrote:It's fluff there is not a clear answer and it contradices itself.

Yep. It all depends on who the protagonist is. Who has greater plot armor. Plus, if both characters are outfitted in full-plot armor, then neither will truly get the upper hand.

koooaei wrote:Ghazzy. If we're going to judge by fluff alone, Lilith has no way of beating him as long as Gork or possible Mork have an interest in this greenskin - and they do. He can literally take a hail of bullets to the face and continue walking forward

See? John Woo Logic.

mrfrosty wrote:

LightKing wrote:
Isn't she like the best combatant in all of the history of the 40k universe. Her skill is unmatched

Could at least have linked to my original thread.

More or less stole the thread title too.

I honestly had no idea it was this difficult coming up with your own content.

This is what I thought when this thread popped up. This guy makes about 4 threads a day though so I'm not sure how much research he does

 Robin5t wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

LightKing wrote:
I know you guys said she wouldn't have a chance against the primarchs

but she could at least possibly beat at least a low tier primarch like Lorgar

right?

Lorgar I'm pretty sure killed an Avatar with not too much effort and killed the big bad Bloodthirster.
Um, no. Lelith can not kill any primarch.

Worst fanwanking thread ever.

While I agree that Primarchs are too much for Lelith...

Avatars have a tendency to die like a two-bit conscript whenever the protagonist of a novel sneezes at them. Killing one is not an impressive feat.

Especially when it's strangled so it looks more like bad writing than anything.

Lucius the Eternal.

If you can't beat her, become her.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Lucius the Eternal.

If you can't beat her, become her.

So that means he didn't beat her in a 1 on 1 combat, which is the question of the thread.

A more interesting thread would be, "Name the weakest character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel."

ted234521 wrote:

Actually, a more interesting question would be "what can kill a Primarch (barring actual gods) in a one on one duel?". I know there are a few swordsmen in 30k (sigismund, sevator) that came close in sparring matches but I seriously question who could best and kill a primarch in full "combat mode". Especially someone like Magnus or Ascendant Lorgar with all their magic BS.

There was an ork warboss who 'almost' beat Emps + Horus. Must be said that emp was not at his full psy capacity cause he was pretty far from Terra and had to spend a portion of his psy power to...do something...well, i don't remember what was the exact reasoning but the fact still stands - an ork warboss could beat emp without full psy. He could beat pre-chaossed Horus. He 'almost' beat them both. But that warboss was huge. And extremely orky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
A more interesting thread would be, "Name the weakest character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel."

technically, there's always chance. For anyone. If you want, you could count a duel between a grot (s2 t2) or brimstone horror (s1 t1, 5++ re-rolling ones) vs Lelith. And there'd still be chance. It'd take the entire string of zeroes but there would be something in the end.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
A more interesting thread would be, "Name the weakest character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel."

A conscript with a shotgun if he get really lucky. 99 times out of 100 Lelith would eviscerate the poor fether. But it's possible.

Well, a grot has ~3.704% chance to wound Lelith per turn in melee. but than she starts getting fnp.With 6+ fnp it's ~3.086% and with 5+ fnp it's ~ 2.469% Means he needs ~121 turn to kill her.

Now the fun thing is that a grot isn't a character. So Lelith doesn't get re-rolls to hit and to-wound as she's not in a challenge and who's afraid of a single puny grot? She doesn't try hard enough to bother getting re-rolls. He'd probably die from a heart attack all by himself. Anywayz, a chance of NOT killing a grot with a single attack is whooping 55.55%. She has 7 on the charge and 6 afterwards - means that it's around. That's 1,63339967288101% to not kill a grot on the 1-st turn and 2,94011941118581% afterwards.

The chance of not killing a grot for 121 turns is 7,67809991483725e-188 and that's:
~00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000767809991483725%

Kinda like predicted.

Let's assume the Grot charges her (GROT POWER!), so she has 6 attacks.

She has a 2.94% chance of NOT killing the grot.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Let's assume the Grot charges her (GROT POWER!), so she has 6 attacks.

She has a 2.94% chance of NOT killing the grot.

Counted earlier with edit for mistake. Grot's chances have improved dramatically!

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
A more interesting thread would be, "Name the weakest character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel."

A conscript with a shotgun if he get really lucky. 99 times out of 100 Lelith would eviscerate the poor fether. But it's possible.

Reliably. For example, Sarpedon's several levels of power underneath Primarchs and Gaz and the like. His ind-fething powers would likely wreck her and he could kill her as she succumbs to fear.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
A more interesting thread would be, "Name the weakest character that could beat Lelith Hesperax in a 1 on 1 combat duel."

A conscript with a shotgun if he get really lucky. 99 times out of 100 Lelith would eviscerate the poor fether. But it's possible.

Reliably. For example, Sarpedon's several levels of power underneath Primarchs and Gaz and the like. His ind-fething powers would likely wreck her and he could kill her as she succumbs to fear.

Tiggy, Ahriman and really any well trained psyker. Lelith has no psychic defenses and would be an easy target for any well trained psyker. Sigmisund could probably do it too. He was an exceptional swordsman.


And yes, really, those are the weakest who could take her out reliably. I think the fanwanking of Lelith ITT is bad but I'll give credit where credit is due. Her whole schtick is being the best duelist in the galaxy.

Not including deities manifest or primarchs, Sergeant Chronus. In a Land Raider.
ALL the guns.