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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/23 20:11:26
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman
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Hey guys.
i'm starting up an imperial guard army, and i want to make some melee units. for some background info, i'm playing cadians, and i want to make an elites-heavy tank-light usable army, hopefully using the formation with the 9 wyrdvanes, primaris psyker and commissar
but anyway, i'm thinking of making a squad of five or more models equipped with close combat weapons and hand flamers. my question: Where is the best place to get hand flamers?
in addition to this, what other suggestions for melee imperial guard do you guys have?
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There is no place for the weakwilled or hesitant. Only by firm action and resolute faith will mankind survive. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/23 22:03:45
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Last I checked there wasn't any way to get hand flamers in any Guard book, it's been a BA/Ordo Hereticus thing historically. I'll look but I'm pretty sure you can't use them in the AM book, the only place I know you'll find models for them is the Death Company box (unless you really want to mutilate Seraphim models you paid fifteen dollars apiece for).
Melee in general is mediocre as a primary battle plan this edition and Guard are very, very bad at it; if you want to take your Cadian models and make melee units out of them it's pretty much Forge World rules or nothing. Krieg (IA5 or IA12) has the advantage of WS4, immunity to morale checks from shooting casualties, an Order that makes lasguns Assault 2, and non-terrible Rough Riders, Renegades (IA5 or IA13) have the advantage of incredibly cheap pistol/CCW models that can choose not to pay for flak armour and WS/BS3 if necessary, access to Chaos units and Daemon Engines, squad-recycling, and mutants, Elysians (IA4) have WS/I 4, democharge shenanigans, and reliable/effective Flyer/Deep Strike delivery.
If you want a useable elite army low on armour you aren't going to find it in 40k Guard; every single list is either heavily mechanized or fields massive amounts of troops, and their melee elements are speed bumps to keep the guns intact for another turn.
If you're opposed to looking at a Space Marine army instead I'd recommend waiting a couple of months for the new Imperial Agents book to land and see what they've done with the Inquisition. You'd lose out on giant squads, heavy armour, and Orders (none of which it sounds like you're using much of anyway) over the Guard book, you'd get nicer and more flexible kit, smaller and more flexible squad builds, non-terrible melee units, and cheap/effective ICs to spread around the army out of the deal. If you drop the 'melee!' part of your plan you probably want to look at the Militarum Tempestus (terrible) or Elysian/D-99 lists (less terrible) rather than the core AM book, they're where you'll find an 'elite' Guard army and Valkyries/Deep Strike reduce the vehicle presence dramatically over a more normal Guard army.
UPDATE: On fairly comprehensive review hand flamers are available to no Guard models across the two Codexes, one supplement, and four Imperial Armour books that represent all the different 'Imperial Guard' lists.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/23 22:09:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/23 22:13:38
Subject: Re:Imperial guard Close combat
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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman
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The melee unit is mainly so i can use it in friendly games, but i will wait for the IA codex to come out, hopefully there will be some good stuff in there. thanks!
also, i do want to include some aspects of a horde, but mainly stuff like the psykers and ratlings.
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There is no place for the weakwilled or hesitant. Only by firm action and resolute faith will mankind survive. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/23 22:19:08
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!
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The only reason any guard player should ever have for getting into clos combat is to tar pit something big and scary like IK's, WK's or greater daemons.
The only model that could even think about going toe to toe with a cc unit in the guard codex is maybe Yarrik, and that is only because he has an Ork weapon and he refuses to die.
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Ghorros wrote:The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote:All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/23 22:57:03
Subject: Re:Imperial guard Close combat
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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NoOneExpectsAnInquisition wrote:The melee unit is mainly so i can use it in friendly games, but i will wait for the IA codex to come out, hopefully there will be some good stuff in there. thanks!
also, i do want to include some aspects of a horde, but mainly stuff like the psykers and ratlings.
If you're looking for melee units to add into a Guard army using the normal Codex you'll probably have more luck looking at Allies than working within your Codex. Inquisitorial Crusader/Assassin henchmen squads, Sisters of Silence, Adeptus Custodes, GK, and Space Wolves are all Battle Brothers and get you solid melee elements in small detachments with no irrelevant tax units, though for all of them except Space Wolves you'll probably want to wait for Imperial Agents to see what new toys they're getting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 01:12:06
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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If you must go Guard, you gotta have Strakken. He's the result of throwing Adam Jenson and Rambo into a blender and then pissing off the resulting badass. In all seriousness, just look at his stats; he's basically a Space Marine wielding a power axe, with no initiative penalty. EDIT: If you're not comfortable with a non-Cadian character, then just make up some character with bionics and proxy him as Strakken.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/24 01:12:33
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 05:31:03
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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It seemingly hasn't been mentioned, but massive platoon blobs are pretty scary in melee. Combine 5 infantry platoon, give each sergeant a power axe, and throw in a priest or commissar. The result is an immense tarpit which hates retreating, but can kill most non-deathstar enemies through weight of attacks (be they normal guardsmen or power axes).
It isn't flawless though. Being a gigantic blob of footsloggers it's not great at chasing fast targets and unwieldy as feth all. It's also tough due to sheer model count, so pie-plates or weight of fire will reap a terrible harvest.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 09:15:57
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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You can make a great melee deathstar with 50 guards or even conscripts and a bunch of allied indeps.
Libconclave - preferably Ultramarine one for Tigurius. Get soul swap for ultimate mobility and turn 1 charges. + invis or something. Don't forget to get one jumppack on a librarian so that the whole squad can re-roll charge ranges.
Azrael for 4++ - but you might not need that too much. Also, if he's the warlord, you could get free furious charge or fnp.
Priests are mandatory. Take 2 or 3 in a blob so that you could get multiple bonuses for cheapo.
Than you need dead killy characters. Don't get me wrong, librarians with force axes or maces with zealot and potentially to-wound re-rolls are gona be deadly allready + if you're running guards and not conscripts, you could take power axes or power maces for sarges too. But you might also wnat to one-shot something like an imperial knight or a wraithknight. Librarians will start with suffecient psy powers and than you could finish them off with something like a wolf lord. Or try to get hammerhand but getting 3 or even 2 powers you need is not a guarantee. So, maybe something like a wolf wolf with a power fist for s10 choppiness.
On the other hand, you could make a cheaper annoy-o-star with a blob + libconclave + Cypher + a bunch of priests. You don't have much in terms of killing Imperial knights - other than psy powers - but other things will be really threatened. Automatically Appended Next Post: oh, take 5 flamers for hilarious overwatch of 84 laz shots + krak nade + 5 d3 flamer hits from the blob.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/24 09:28:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 10:33:26
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot
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50 conscripts plus 2 priests = amazing value guard CC.
It won't bring down armour or gargantuan creatures, but it will tie them up for a LONG time.
200pts really isn't that much of an investment. Most of the other options discussed here involve loads f expensive psykers.
If you go lib conclave though, make them white scars. Hit and run innately is ridiculously useful. Means you can shoot with the rest of your army and get another charge with the blob if you need it.
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Fully Painted Armies: 2200pts Orks 1000pts Space Marines 1200pts Tau 2500pts Blood Angels 3500pts Imperial Guard/Renegades and 1700pts Daemons 450pts Imperial Knights |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 11:10:24
Subject: Re:Imperial guard Close combat
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
New Zealand
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If you like elite troops, very few tanks and a melee focus you should try different faction. Guard elite blows, our tanks are awesome and superblob/conscript horde/ogryn/rough riders all get crushed by dedicated melee units from other factions - notice how most suggestions are "add allies".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/24 11:11:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 14:44:17
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Moscow, Russia
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Guard melee units (shotguns + a sergeant with some power weapon + a flamer or grenade launcher to soften up the target before a charge) will lose badly to CC units, but they'll do just fine against Fire Warriors or some other such specialist ranged infantry unit that will outshoot Guard.
shoot the choppy, chop the shooty
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 14:51:40
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
New Zealand
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Alcibiades wrote:Guard melee units (shotguns + a sergeant with some power weapon + a flamer or grenade launcher to soften up the target before a charge) will lose badly to CC units, but they'll do just fine against Fire Warriors or some other such specialist ranged infantry unit that will outshoot Guard.
shoot the choppy, chop the shooty
Shotguns means you're assaulting with veterans. That 10 man squad will get smoked by fire warriors long before they can even threaten a charge. Artillery is our answer to shooty infantry. Artillery is pretty much our answer for everything.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 15:11:44
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
Newcastle
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Why not just use some ogryns or bullgryns? I have no idea how good they are but they're cool models and it isn't hard to imagine one of those things bludgeoning a space marine to death
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Hydra Dominatus |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 15:49:27
Subject: Re:Imperial guard Close combat
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
New Zealand
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They don't stack up at all to similarly costed assault units from other books. Necron wraiths are comparable in cost yet are much more durable, hit a lot harder, move faster, ignore terrain and have better morale. Really the only things Ogryns have going for them is that slot is full of useless units so it reduces the opportunity cost of fielding them, they also look pretty cool.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/24 15:50:40
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 15:49:29
Subject: Re:Imperial guard Close combat
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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman
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Eh, bullgryns are pretty good but they're very expensive
very expensive in both points and $$$
i'll probably get a small number of artillery, but do you guys think a hellhound/devil dog would be worth it against tyranids, Dark angels, swooping hawks?
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There is no place for the weakwilled or hesitant. Only by firm action and resolute faith will mankind survive. No sacrifice is too great. No treachery too small. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 15:53:29
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!
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Snake Tortoise wrote:Why not just use some ogryns or bullgryns? I have no idea how good they are but they're cool models and it isn't hard to imagine one of those things bludgeoning a space marine to death
Because they are an extremely expensive cc option that will die to any other elite cc unit? Their S5, T5 and W3 is nice but they are I2 with a 5+/4+/3+ armour save: any elite cc squad will go straight through that toughness and armour and any cc blob unit will drown them in wounds, all of this happens at a higher initiative step than they can attack at.
Of course that doesn't mean they can't take out shooty units, unless they are shot before they get there.
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Ghorros wrote:The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote:All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 16:29:09
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
Newcastle
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Are there more efficient ways of fielding CC IG units though? I suppose a load of conscripts with a couple of priests isn't going to cost much, but comparing an expensive infantry blob full of power axes with a small ogryn unit doesn't seem fair
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 17:05:22
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
New Zealand
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Snake Tortoise wrote:Are there more efficient ways of fielding CC IG units though? I suppose a load of conscripts with a couple of priests isn't going to cost much, but comparing an expensive infantry blob full of power axes with a small ogryn unit doesn't seem fair
Nobody is comparing them with each other though. Neither option is efficient, there are no efficient melee guard units. Not only are the points better spent on more guns, the unique order mechanic does nothing for melee units.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 17:54:53
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Dakka Veteran
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Snake Tortoise wrote:Why not just use some ogryns or bullgryns? I have no idea how good they are but they're cool models and it isn't hard to imagine one of those things bludgeoning a space marine to death
Sadly ogryns are in the running for one the worst units in all of 40k. If their lore was reflected on the tabletop you would be correct. They would be devastating in close combat. Unfortunately, 2/3 of their load outs offer no close combat utility, can be one shot by power weapons despite their multiple wounds, cost more than wolfen yet lack any of the special rules, have low leadership that requires a commissar or another babysitter bloating the cost of the expensive unit even more and are very bulky limiting the transport options available to them. I do agree though that their new models are fantastic. Id love to buy more of them and field them but that would require GW to first acknowledge that they are broken and desperately need to be buffed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 19:37:17
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Crazed Spirit of the Defiler
Newcastle
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Commissar Benny wrote: Snake Tortoise wrote:Why not just use some ogryns or bullgryns? I have no idea how good they are but they're cool models and it isn't hard to imagine one of those things bludgeoning a space marine to death
Sadly ogryns are in the running for one the worst units in all of 40k. If their lore was reflected on the tabletop you would be correct. They would be devastating in close combat. Unfortunately, 2/3 of their load outs offer no close combat utility, can be one shot by power weapons despite their multiple wounds, cost more than wolfen yet lack any of the special rules, have low leadership that requires a commissar or another babysitter bloating the cost of the expensive unit even more and are very bulky limiting the transport options available to them. I do agree though that their new models are fantastic. Id love to buy more of them and field them but that would require GW to first acknowledge that they are broken and desperately need to be buffed.
That's a shame, and IG seem to be in a spot at the moment where you really need everything in your list to be efficient at what it does. It would be nice if they were only bulky
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/24 20:05:44
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon
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Don't. Automatically Appended Next Post: If i was tiring to be helpful, maybe vet squads with pw, heavy flamer, 2x flamer & shotguns with carapace armour. But thats still only hurting just before combat.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/24 20:13:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/25 06:46:45
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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mrhappyface wrote:The only reason any guard player should ever have for getting into clos combat is to tar pit something big and scary like IK's, WK's or greater daemons.
The only model that could even think about going toe to toe with a cc unit in the guard codex is maybe Yarrik, and that is only because he has an Ork weapon and he refuses to die.
50 blob with 4++, 5 power axes and couple IC's with priests is pretty damn tough nut to crack. That's a lot of IC attacks and whole bunch of S5 AP2 attacks, 4++ and not going away in a hurry.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/25 06:57:41
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Dakka Veteran
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Even with 50 bodies, a squad of dedicated close combat space marines is going to fly through that in a turn or two. The worst thing about it is that you're setting up the unit FOR CC. That means you're putting points into something that you should be avoiding. Trust me, even something like CSM are going to LOVE engaging that. That's what we WANT to do. Remember that your initiative is going to be lower than pretty much everything that wants to get into CC, and you're going to take quite a hammering before you get to strike back with feeble weaponry. I'm far more scared of First Rank, Second Rank, Fire from a 50 man blob than what they can do with their swiss army knives.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/25 06:59:18
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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s4 ap2. Sarges are s3 base. But they still pack 4 attacks on the charge with re-rolls for hatred and potentially re-rolls to-wound for hymns.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/25 06:59:22
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Dakka Veteran
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Oh, and if you're looking for a way to kill CC units, put small units out front of some vets with plasma. Let the small unit get eaten alive, then shoot the CC unit to death. Done.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/25 07:00:22
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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!!Goffik Rocker!!
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You can't always shoot a cc unit down. Besides, if you don't charge them yourself, they're gona charge you with all the furious charges, rages, hammers of wrath and stuff like that. They would also be able to pick the best angle of attack which is even more important. Besides, they can even decide to charge something more valuable to you than a bunch of guards or conscripts.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/11/25 07:03:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/25 07:03:09
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Dakka Veteran
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I didn't say it was a good plan, but I've had it happen to me. My friend used to run blob IG, and good lord was it funny to have Berzerkers and a Khorne lord charge into his dense ranks. His solution was what I listed. He'd usually drop 4-5 before they charged in next turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/25 07:40:55
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Munga wrote:Even with 50 bodies, a squad of dedicated close combat space marines is going to fly through that in a turn or two. The worst thing about it is that you're setting up the unit FOR CC. That means you're putting points into something that you should be avoiding. Trust me, even something like CSM are going to LOVE engaging that. That's what we WANT to do. Remember that your initiative is going to be lower than pretty much everything that wants to get into CC, and you're going to take quite a hammering before you get to strike back with feeble weaponry. I'm far more scared of First Rank, Second Rank, Fire from a 50 man blob than what they can do with their swiss army knives.
Have you ever tried that? Keep in mind those have 4++ and IC's with 2+/4++ possibly with rerolls tanking hits to boot.
And the troopers are there to just soak up hits. Killing is done by S8/AP2 or better along with power axe sergeants for fun.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/25 07:41:25
2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/25 07:53:12
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Potent Possessed Daemonvessel
Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!
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tneva82 wrote: mrhappyface wrote:The only reason any guard player should ever have for getting into clos combat is to tar pit something big and scary like IK's, WK's or greater daemons.
The only model that could even think about going toe to toe with a cc unit in the guard codex is maybe Yarrik, and that is only because he has an Ork weapon and he refuses to die.
50 blob with 4++, 5 power axes and couple IC's with priests is pretty damn tough nut to crack. That's a lot of IC attacks and whole bunch of S5 AP2 attacks, 4++ and not going away in a hurry.
And what do you think dedicated cc units will be getting? Let's say you take it against one of my all time favourite lists: a houndstar supported by Tzeentch psychic battery. Do you think I will care about your number of men when I have close to 200 S5 attacks? Do you think I will care about your power axes when I potentially have a 2++ save?
It's all fine saying "but these units aren't designed to take on such an expensive melee unit, just your average cc unit" the problem with that is that, in this cc septic meta, most cc units have to be that hard hitting if they want to be of any use. It isn't like the houndstar is uncommon either, any Daemon player who has ever played an assault list has used it.
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Ghorros wrote:The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote:All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/25 07:57:43
Subject: Imperial guard Close combat
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Dakka Veteran
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Remember that a CSM lord or a prince with a daemon weapon rolls a D6 and gets that many extra attacks, on top of the damage spreading to all enemy models within 3" of the bearer with unsavable wounds. That's just the lord, not to mention the contingent of berzerkers. Everything charging in has rage, furious charge, and counter attack, as well. It's really the only time berzerkers are worth it. You're gonna shoot more of them to death than you're going to chip at with ws2 or 3 vs ws5. You're not going to get enough bodies in contact.
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