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 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm just wondering if the NL and IW Relic Armor has a No Daemon Prince clause in it, otherwise my NL Prince can get a 2+ save, 3+ Jink, and 5+ invul, rerolling Ones when dedicated Tzeentch.

Now i normally dont approve of the broken 2+ rerollable stuff, this one might tempt me.

he can get a 2+ jink of the first turn too (or whenever night fight is in play), dont forget that hehe

 Darkseid wrote:
Is there any advantage of using the new WE rules instead of KDK?

Well the WE stuff lends well to actually making the CSM side of khorne better, KDK is more of a Khorne daemon++ book.

saying that nothing stopping you mix-mashing them.

Take a WE Malestrom of gore with your KDK primary, put a couple of heralds in there and they'll still generate blood tithe. Somwhat the best of both worlds

 Latro_ wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm just wondering if the NL and IW Relic Armor has a No Daemon Prince clause in it, otherwise my NL Prince can get a 2+ save, 3+ Jink, and 5+ invul, rerolling Ones when dedicated Tzeentch.

Now i normally dont approve of the broken 2+ rerollable stuff, this one might tempt me.

he can get a 2+ jink of the first turn too (or whenever night fight is in play), dont forget that heh

Unless I misread something, the 2+ armour improves cover by 1 so a Prince will have Jink, stealth and +1 cover no matter what. The problem is getting a prince into the list since you will likely be forced to take 2 other HQs for the Murder Talon formation.

So looking at builds with these rules.....are Iron Hands sneaky good from a power standpoint?

With the decurian you are looking at a standard 13 point csm marine that has:
1. Stubborn in the open, fearless in a fortification.
2. 6+ fnp
3. Leadership 9-10
4. Obsec

The termies are even better. All of the above, 2+/5++, and a combi melta and power weapon for.......36 points.

Add in the super oblits in the formation with a ML3 psyker rolling technomancy......that is a pretty sick army overall, all the flexability of gladius with more rules special rules, cheaper units, but less free transports.

Heck, leaving out the.oblits may even be better, just msu and melta up with those super cheap csm squads and go hog wild. Sure your kill point games will be tough, but this far outweighs that imo.

Three termies squads, ml3 bike sorceror, lord in termie armor, bike squad, helbrute, six csm squads with rhinos and melta, and a squad of spawn for the sorceror is 1850. Thats 19 obsec units that are all a good mix of durable and hard to move off objectives.

 Night Lords wrote:

 Latro_ wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
I'm just wondering if the NL and IW Relic Armor has a No Daemon Prince clause in it, otherwise my NL Prince can get a 2+ save, 3+ Jink, and 5+ invul, rerolling Ones when dedicated Tzeentch.

Now i normally dont approve of the broken 2+ rerollable stuff, this one might tempt me.

he can get a 2+ jink of the first turn too (or whenever night fight is in play), dont forget that heh

Unless I misread something, the 2+ armour improves cover by 1 so a Prince will have Jink, stealth and +1 cover no matter what. The problem is getting a prince into the list since you will likely be forced to take 2 other HQs for the Murder Talon formation.

You only need one HQ in the raptor talon. It has to be a lord with jump pack. And you only need one raptor talon core and as far as I can tell one spawn as aux is enough.
Then you can take single princes in the command formations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've never fought against a superfriends list. Could somebody give me an example of one and why it works?
Just curious if it possible to have something similar now with the legions, not necessarily a copy.

 Roknar wrote:


You only need one HQ in the raptor talon. It has to be a lord with jump pack. And you only need one raptor talon core and as far as I can tell one spawn as aux is enough.
Then you can take single princes in the command formations.

Yes, but you are not really going to be able to run a full army with just Raptor Talon, and unlocking any other units requires another HQ (aside from heldrake formation).

 Night Lords wrote:

 Roknar wrote:


You only need one HQ in the raptor talon. It has to be a lord with jump pack. And you only need one raptor talon core and as far as I can tell one spawn as aux is enough.
Then you can take single princes in the command formations.

Yes, but you are not really going to be able to run a full army with just Raptor Talon, and unlocking any other units requires another HQ (aside from heldrake formation).

Run a cad. Or another formation. Simple enough. You don't need other hqs other than another daemon prince.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Night Lords wrote:

 Roknar wrote:


You only need one HQ in the raptor talon. It has to be a lord with jump pack. And you only need one raptor talon core and as far as I can tell one spawn as aux is enough.
Then you can take single princes in the command formations.

Yes, but you are not really going to be able to run a full army with just Raptor Talon, and unlocking any other units requires another HQ (aside from heldrake formation).

Run a cad. Or another formation. Simple enough. You don't need other hqs other than another daemon prince.

If you take a CAD, you dont get +1 cover and reroll charges, which are the biggest benefits of NL. Another formation requires another HQ.

I was looking at options to take a group of juggerlords. Not too concerned about viability just yet.
Not quite sure how to go about this. A WE decurion could have up to 5 lords in command formations.
That would be the easiest by far to get a lot of them, but you would need a maelstrom or warband first. which come with roughly 400 points of troops.
You get the armywide 2d6 move which is good but 400 points is worth 4 cads in cultists. that would be the same amount of hqs, but waaaaay more bodies.
Not to mention obsec and it would also allow for mixed legions.

The idea is to form a multi character unit though, so the talisman could work fine without the WE decurion.
So I looked into other legions to see if there was some decent combo there maybe.

Black Legion lords could bring a large blast with d3 penetrating hits. Might be useful, but beasts aren't relentless so meh.
The hand of darkness is better now that it comes with hatred on the lord carrying it. Between all the high strength attacks your likely to have though it doesn't do enough.

WB offer nothing except maybe the baleful iron since you want to charge rather than waste rage. Although it does give the option to summon daemons with relative ease, which helps pad out the (likely) low number of units.
NL can't take juggernaughts, but if you were to switch to bikes, the stealth would spread to give everybody a 3+ jink.
They also have a 2+ armor which would give that guy a 2+/2+ jink to tank for the unit. The talons of night are little bit expensive but let you turn any melee into a daemon weapon.
Only on the charge, but hey. Would be nice on an unmarked sorcerer to make a pseudo seers bane. roll on biomancy with a force maul and wreck face with iron arm, besides, endurance would help, as would leech given the 3-4 wounds on the lords.

AL mind veil would prevent anybody from tarpitting the unit, assuming the 3d6 is optional at least. That would be worth a lot too. It would allow the unit to charge any nearby unit to hide from being shot and least some of the cultists would be infiltrating. Chosen might be interesting too for that CAD, points allowed.
Daemonkin has more punchy stuff, but I fear you'd be severely lacking in blood tithes plus they wouldn't apply to the unit anyway.

Some interesting options, but I think as far as lords are concerned, the WE decurion would be better, with maybe a gorefather prince.
Not sure about adding a cabal. Sinistrum is decent but with 3+ saves all around it's just ok. Heretech would add ranged haywire and make them T6, not bad.
Ectomancy is meh and geomortis has ley leech, but that's pretty good with 4 wound characters.
Torturer of worlds could be good to catch fast units since they can't run. It would also help to prevent counter charges. The rest doesn't do much for this.

Endurance would be massively useful for the eternal warrior, even more so than the fnp. But instead of a cabal, a CAD of CS with prescience would hurt a lot depending on how many WE relics you bring and you'd still have 2 sorcerers to roll on biomancy.

Unfortunately there is no character that could keep up with this unit for a decent warlord trait. Not sure about FW though.

 Night Lords wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Night Lords wrote:

 Roknar wrote:


You only need one HQ in the raptor talon. It has to be a lord with jump pack. And you only need one raptor talon core and as far as I can tell one spawn as aux is enough.
Then you can take single princes in the command formations.

Yes, but you are not really going to be able to run a full army with just Raptor Talon, and unlocking any other units requires another HQ (aside from heldrake formation).

Run a cad. Or another formation. Simple enough. You don't need other hqs other than another daemon prince.

If you take a CAD, you dont get +1 cover and reroll charges, which are the biggest benefits of NL. Another formation requires another HQ.

No, they really aren't. And you take a daemon prince for your command slot (you still need one of those). Seriously, you seem to just want to complain for the sake of it without really thinking about it. This is a tactica thread not a complaining thread.

It would be nice if we had a few generic unit formations without having to add HQs to everything. You could be worse off though, Black Legion and WE suffer strongly from not taking a decurion. WE because we still can't assault worth a damn and BL because without the decurion they have...hatred. Hatred is nice and all, but compared to all fearless, relentless fnp, furious charge etc...it's really nothing.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:


No, they really aren't. And you take a daemon prince for your command slot (you still need one of those). Seriously, you seem to just want to complain for the sake of it without really thinking about it. This is a tactica thread not a complaining thread.

Without even thinking about it? Uhh, I think Ive made the only post related to NL with an actual analysis and full balanced army in mind. "Take a CAD" and "Take another aux formation" are not contributions and not resolving any issues. I mean, if you dont think 2+ cover saves guaranteed on turn 1 are the best rules NL have, I don't know what to say.

There should be a fight club thread where you can settle these arguments via a proxy wh40k fight using a program that lets you simulate a wh40k game. Then you cant ever share your findings about it because 1st rule of fight club is dont talk about fight club. All in all though i am totally building an iron warriors army with my burning of prospero marines dakka everywhere >=D
I like the tank hunters and ability to spam obliterators. If obliterators are your tax unit i think you got the best CAD ever.

So, is the the new WE Relic and Movement options finally a way of making the dimensional key reliably work?

Im thinking of putting the key on a chaos lord and and put him on a fast unit (bikers perhaps) with another lord with the +3" Movement Talisman.
I think this unit could get a very reliably first turn charge of (2d6+3 + 12+3 + 2d6+3 charge).

In turn two i could then drop my raptor Talon without scatter. Thinking of 2x Melta Rapors and 1x Flamer Raptors.

You guys think that could work?

I think anything a flamer or two can do the close combat attacks of the raptors can do almost as well. The cool thing is that you get to pick your targets with your raptors though! Probability wise, you will get 7 for each of those 2d6 rolls, but at 6 each, averaged out, i think you will be able to get something. However, if you get crap rolls and you will likely end up with a lord stuck out in the crosshairs of everything that shoots.

I think my favourite (incredibly situationally useful) upgrade is the alpha legion armour - only useful against ap2 flamers (of which I can only think D scythes...).

super excited about a standard death guard war band with bikes and havocs.

Nightlords's culmative -4 on fear tests looks pretty useful against non marine armies.

word bearers is a shame that their 'troops' slot is just possessed - Games workshop is clearly still trying to push them despite everything. Just give them an extra wound!!

Overall so happy with the supplement!

 Ollivander wrote:
I think my favourite (incredibly situationally useful) upgrade is the alpha legion armour - only useful against ap2 flamers (of which I can only think D scythes...).

Technically, sisters can have rending flamers. Also, misfortune makes all attacks rending vs the squad, so any flamer can be rending. And i'm not sure D Scythes classify as flamers. Eldar can lower your armor by -1 iirc. So, any ap3 flamer - that they don't have, but flamestorm cannons and heldrakes do.

-4 to fear tests from the nightlords without ignoring atsknf is kinda useless. The only army that's afraid of fear are orks. And i'm the only ork player here...and i'm running bully boyz, so 80% of my cc also ignores fear. Well, they can kinda try to use it vs other...night lords cause everyone else even in this csm book also ignore fear. All mono-god-dedicated are fearless, word bearers have zealot auras and you'd chop down cultists anywayz, iron warriors are stubborn...so yeah. Night lords are not fearless. And orks. Non-orkurion, non-bully-boyz ork lists.

But what if you use the negative leadership with pinning?

macluvin wrote:
But what if you use the negative leadership with pinning?

Its only for Fear tests to my understanding

 koooaei wrote:

 Ollivander wrote:
I think my favourite (incredibly situationally useful) upgrade is the alpha legion armour - only useful against ap2 flamers (of which I can only think D scythes...).

Technically, sisters can have rending flamers. Also, misfortune makes all attacks rending vs the squad, so any flamer can be rending. And i'm not sure D Scythes classify as flamers. Eldar can lower your armor by -1 iirc. So, any ap3 flamer - that they don't have, but flamestorm cannons and heldrakes do.

-4 to fear tests from the nightlords without ignoring atsknf is kinda useless. The only army that's afraid of fear are orks. And i'm the only ork player here...and i'm running bully boyz, so 80% of my cc also ignores fear. Well, they can kinda try to use it vs other...night lords cause everyone else even in this csm book also ignore fear. All mono-god-dedicated are fearless, word bearers have zealot auras and you'd chop down cultists anywayz, iron warriors are stubborn...so yeah. Night lords are not fearless. And orks. Non-orkurion, non-bully-boyz ork lists.

Well with -4ld even Necrons fail fear checks. Tau could also be mentioned, but once they are in CC it's over for them anyway. Eldar of all kinds also aren't fearless I guess.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 Ollivander wrote:
I think my favourite (incredibly situationally useful) upgrade is the alpha legion armour - only useful against ap2 flamers (of which I can only think D scythes...).

Technically, sisters can have rending flamers. Also, misfortune makes all attacks rending vs the squad, so any flamer can be rending. And i'm not sure D Scythes classify as flamers. Eldar can lower your armor by -1 iirc. So, any ap3 flamer - that they don't have, but flamestorm cannons and heldrakes do.

-4 to fear tests from the nightlords without ignoring atsknf is kinda useless. The only army that's afraid of fear are orks. And i'm the only ork player here...and i'm running bully boyz, so 80% of my cc also ignores fear. Well, they can kinda try to use it vs other...night lords cause everyone else even in this csm book also ignore fear. All mono-god-dedicated are fearless, word bearers have zealot auras and you'd chop down cultists anywayz, iron warriors are stubborn...so yeah. Night lords are not fearless. And orks. Non-orkurion, non-bully-boyz ork lists.

Well with -4ld even Necrons fail fear checks. Tau could also be mentioned, but once they are in CC it's over for them anyway. Eldar of all kinds also aren't fearless I guess.

I'm taking into consideration the units on which fear would have some significant effect. Mostly melee units. Tau don't care about fear tests. If you catch them in melee, they're in trouble allready. Necrons - yes, i missed them. Would matter vs warriors and probably even flayed ones. But wraiths are fearless. Don't remember about lychguards and praetorians. As for melee eldar. Well, to be honest, i can't remember facing anything melee oriented other than a wraithknigh or council. Council can be hurt by it if they don't get the fearless psy power.

 koooaei wrote:

I'm taking into consideration the units on which fear would have some significant effect. Mostly melee units. Tau don't care about fear tests. If you catch them in melee, they're in trouble allready. Necrons - yes, i missed them. Would matter vs warriors and probably even flayed ones. But wraiths are fearless. Don't remember about lychguards and praetorians. As for melee eldar. Well, to be honest, i can't remember facing anything melee oriented other than a wraithknigh or council. Council can be hurt by it if they don't get the fearless psy power.

<-----

stormcraft wrote:
So, is the the new WE Relic and Movement options finally a way of making the dimensional key reliably work?

Im thinking of putting the key on a chaos lord and and put him on a fast unit (bikers perhaps) with another lord with the +3" Movement Talisman.
I think this unit could get a very reliably first turn charge of (2d6+3 + 12+3 + 2d6+3 charge).

In turn two i could then drop my raptor Talon without scatter. Thinking of 2x Melta Rapors and 1x Flamer Raptors.

You guys think that could work?

Black Legion have a close to 100% chance to activate the key turn one. All you need is a raptor talon in their decurion.
That lord will deepstrike turn 1 as long as he is your warlord and can assault right away. And since you're not using the jump pack in the movement phase he has built in charge re-roll and hatred from being BL. And HoW gives you back the bonus attack you lost....sort of.

Only problem I see is that while this activates the key, the rest of your army can also deepstrike on turn 1. So while the key can activate turn 1, you still have the same problem that most of your stuff has arrived before the key activates.
Unless you wait ill turn 2.

That BL Lord can still mishap or scatter 12" away from your charge target.

But, fortunately for me I want to play pure World Eaters so Deepstriking T1 isnt a option for me anyway.

Back it up with IW oblitorators?
I just love the CAD of just oblits and maybe a sorcerer, deep striking in with obsec and tank Hunter and fnp. Bargain.

Well I did say, close to 100%. You can charge literally any non vehicle unit that you can wound. You're only looking to kill one guy in melee. Mishapping 12 inch is rare and even then you 're still technically in charge range.

A WE decurion also has a really good shot at activating it turn one. Though they can't choose their targets quite as well as BL. Outside of a decurion it's a bit risky, but then again, the rewards go up. All of our forge world flyers would love that, especially a fire raptor.

Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

So it's not just for thousand sons? Should I pick it up for my emperor's children warband?

 Lamoura wrote:
So it's not just for thousand sons? Should I pick it up for my emperor's children warband?

I think you're in the wrong thread lol, but yes. Any self respecting CSM player should get the Traitor Legions supplement.

Except dedicated Crimson Slaughterer players.They don't know a long war when they see one.

 Night Lords wrote:
With the rerolling charges and +1 cover during night fighting rules not applying to a CAD, I feel the NL rules are just bad and conflicting. I figure there are only two ways to run this:

1. CAD + Raptor Talon core, in which case the +1 cover first turn does nothing because your formation is deepstriking, and the guaranteed night fighting does nothing because all of your remaining guys on the board have stealth anyways.

2. Raptor Talon + Chaos Warband in which case you are not taking advantage of the Raptor Talon core choice. You would have to take a huge point sink with 3 HQ choices just to get a Daemon Prince, which I think utilizes the NL wargear and rules by far the best and gives you a hammer of a unit. You are also missing out on Raptor Troops and are forced to take CSM (as well as an Elite unit) that cost nearly 300 points and are slow in a legion built on speed. You also can't take only a single Heldrake which is yet another massive 340 point sink. There is also no way to fit in any tanks because of the restrictions.

Fear shouldve been something with a different name like Raptor Terror that works on all units in the game, and +1 cover save during night fighting should've been baseline. There are way too many required godawful formations including horrible HQ choice point sinks.

The way formations work is just silly. They just limit any creativity. It should always be a CAD, and if you bring X, Y and Z units from formation A inside of the CAD, those units get the formation rules. Instead youre forced to run these generic predetermined armies.

I think you're misinterpreting the rules when it comes to CAD and Warband, the restrictions read as "Any Detachment with the Chaos Space Marines Faction can be from one of the Nine traitor Legions. A Night Lords Detachment RETAINS the Chaos Space Marine Faction and is treated in all ways as a Chaos Space Marine Detachment." with that in mind that would mean Chaos Warbandand CAD would still be able to Utilize the Benefits from Legion Rules. So Raptor Troops instead of regular CSM still applies with Chaos Warbands.

You only need 1 Core and 1 Auxillary to field a Murder Talon detachment, it has the choice to include 4 Command choices plus any number of Core and Aux. So i think there is plenty of room to field tanks with the Fist of the Gods Formation.