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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Black Legion need the help from the key most. It would allow Melta Termicide to be actually effective.

So what kind of list would be build to get this done?

I imagine you could do a minimum-strength Speartip+Raptor Talon, and then take a Black Legion CAD with several Obsec units. Alternately, an Iron Warriors CAD to drop some no-scatter Obliterators could be funny.

Has anyone considered running the plague colony? The -1t buff is impressive. The -1 init means you strike the same time as marine equivalents, typhus insta glibs anyone toughness 4 or less. Relentless on plasma gun toting plague marines is very nice. You can get typhus and 7 squads kitted out with rhinos and meltas/plasma guns, a few power weapons and melta bombs. A sprinkling of dirge casters. Less than 1600 points. Everything is pretty potent at range due to special weapon spam and also more than capable in melee.

Don't forget the -1 toughness buff means plague marines reroll to wound vs marine equivalents due to poison.

For an 1850 list this leaves room for a unit of nurgle oblits for typhus to roll with or perhaps a unit of termicide with axes and more combi plasmas and chain fist for good measure. Im leaning towards oblits. Stealth first turn gives you a pretty strong chance of not getting your rhinos picked off.

Having room for a nurgle sorcerer on bike with spawn or bikers would be very nice too. The nurgle discipline isn't THAT bad and adding the -1str Hex to a unit makes them essentially useless vs plague marines in combat

35 plague marines is a lot but I surprisingly can field it, just need a few more rhinos.

Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

Source?

 Roknar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

Source?

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/traitor-AL-det.jpg

The rule is not redundant with the lost and the damned, it stacks. It is a completely different rule. One is a command bonus, the other is a core detatchment rule. One gets outflank, the other doesn't. Read them carefully, and apply RAW logic.

Add typhus to a cad and you have multiplying zombies if you roll well.

So, here's a cunning plan.

Night lords:
Raptor talon with melta. Spawn

World eaters:
warband with a +3" lord and a key lord in command auxillary, 3 min marine units, probably some dirge caster dozer rhinos, termicide, 3 biker units (probably 5+ strong and probably large squads for lords), havoks or helbrute. As many solo spawns as you can fit.

Night lords grand nightfight to add protection to World eaters. World eaters rush the board for 1-st turn assault with spawns, lords and bikers that have 3+ jinking cover in the open now, score the midfield with rhinos and marines and charge up a dimensional key. Night lords try to arrive scatter-less around the key and add melta + some extra charges to allready worn off world eaters.

What do you think about that? Points are gona be tight - that's for sure. But it's fieldable in a 1850 bracket. Some good board controle. Some decent mid-tier melee that's gona trump anything short of melee-dedicated armies with magic buffs. And yet, it's msu enough to mitigate deathstar opponents with some nice fearless obsec.

I'm personally wondering what the best way to run Iron warriors is going to be. The Obliterator troops are nice but what to do for a HQ? I was thinking that if the Fleshmetal Exoskeleton works on a Daemon Prince that would be pretty nifty sporting 2+ 5++ 6+FNP and IWND (possibly 3+ FNP with the warlord trait?). Heck stick wings on him and he's a flying (better) terminator XD. Its probably not the best or most cost effective but I like it.

The big thing I'm thinking of is what fortifications should we take as part of the detachment? I was thinking wall of martyrs since for now it says (on or in fortifications) and you can't really be on or in Agis defense line (can you?) And the WoM trenches can't be destroyed or maybe even the hemotrope reactors? (Plascannon oblits possibly double tapping with the right warlord trait).

While on the subject of the IW detatchment it says you get to reroll for ordnance and barrage weapons (but there are no barrge weapons available ) is there anything that would be worth taking to maximize the benefit from this?

 koooaei wrote:
So, here's a cunning plan.

Night lords:
Raptor talon with melta. Spawn

World eaters:
warband with a +3" lord and a key lord in command auxillary, 3 min marine units, probably some dirge caster dozer rhinos, termicide, 3 biker units (probably 5+ strong and probably large squads for lords), havoks or helbrute. As many solo spawns as you can fit.

Night lords grand nightfight to add protection to World eaters. World eaters rush the board for 1-st turn assault with spawns, lords and bikers that have 3+ jinking cover in the open now, score the midfield with rhinos and marines and charge up a dimensional key. Night lords try to arrive scatter-less around the key and add melta + some extra charges to allready worn off world eaters.

What do you think about that? Points are gona be tight - that's for sure. But it's fieldable in a 1850 bracket. Some good board controle. Some decent mid-tier melee that's gona trump anything short of melee-dedicated armies with magic buffs. And yet, it's msu enough to mitigate deathstar opponents with some nice fearless obsec.

Dimensional Key doesn't have a limit on scatterless deepstrike.

So, Iron warriors can have easy access to a 2+ re-rollable dp. Not cheap and not extremely choppy but a very neat tool nevertheless! Keep him away from grav though.


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 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Dimensional Key doesn't have a limit on scatterless deepstrike.

what do you mean


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ir0njack wrote:

While on the subject of the IW detatchment it says you get to reroll for ordnance and barrage weapons (but there are no barrge weapons available ) is there anything that would be worth taking to maximize the benefit from this?

Maybe something with fortifications. I don't know, fortifications are not amazing as they're very fragile. Well, fragile is not a 100% right word. They're landraider-ish. They're either immune to everything the opponent fields or explode from a single shot/strike like in my last 2 games. First shot - down goes the plazma obliterator killing half the devastators inside. The game before that - first strike in melee - down goes the imperial bunker killing half the obliterators inside. They are indeed more fragile than even vehicles as the building damage table is more punishing all in all and they get destroyed on 6-7 instead of just 7.

So, kinda like with vehicles. The cheaper your fortification is - the better it's gona be. If you get a bunker for 55 pts, it's a nice firepoint and a means of getting comms relay. If you get VSG, it's a nice 100 pt army-wide protector for the whole game. If you get a cool shiny stronghold for a handful of points, it's a prime target for all the melta and lazcannons around.

 Ir0njack wrote:
I'm personally wondering what the best way to run Iron warriors is going to be. The Obliterator troops are nice but what to do for a HQ? I was thinking that if the Fleshmetal Exoskeleton works on a Daemon Prince that would be pretty nifty sporting 2+ 5++ 6+FNP and IWND (possibly 3+ FNP with the warlord trait?). Heck stick wings on him and he's a flying (better) terminator XD. Its probably not the best or most cost effective but I like it.

If you have shooty infantry on a fortification you could take a cheap chaos lord or warpsmith (both BS5) to use one of the turrets and give some CC ability to their unit. Or a sorcerer casting powers. Or a more standard bike lord with one of the relics. I like your daemon prince idea

Do we think the red rain formation bonus from maelstrom of Gore could combo with the mindveil?

Finish a unit off in the movement phase, move 3d6".assault and kill again.

Also, can AL dedicated rhinos infiltrate? Good way of getting dirge casters into position?

Yeah that's exactly why I was looking at the Wall of Martyrs trench lines, they're fortifications that you can be in but battlefield debris so they can't be subjected to the aforementioned brutal damage table. Personally I have access to any fortfication it' just figuring which is going to get me the most bang for my buck. I know that CSM has access to the geomancy copy paste so they COULD possibly get the power to move any fortification around (and personally I think it would be fluffy as hell) but it's not something I can really bank on.

With any luck next codex the god disciplines will be optional unless you're sorc has a mark.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

If you have shooty infantry on a fortification you could take a cheap chaos lord or warpsmith

I'd not call warpsmiths cheap. On the contrary, they're like 1/3 overpriced.

It looks to me that using a normal CAD is better for Word Bearers than running a warband in a black crusade detachment, as the detachment doesn't really add much to it and losing access to FW models seems detrimental

Word bearers are puzzling for me. Their artifacts are meh, summoning on 3+ is still not good enough - you'll peril with sorcs that only have 2 wounds and are in no way cheap. Apostles are stuck footslogging. Yep, the 6" zealot aura is nice and stuff but where to stick apostles? Spawns are allready fearless. Large blobs of cultists? Apostles would just get sniped out. Large blobs of marines? Can't remember the last time it worked. Possessed as troops? Come on, gw, again? Noone wants possessed with this rules.

There's clearly a footslogging horde emphasis here. But it's not gona work as there are no durability or speed buffs and old good helbrute formation does cultist swarms for cheaper. Lost and the damned allready have an apostle with a 6" zealot bauble. I don't know, Word bearers just strike me as the worst of the bunch. Even 1k sons have something going for them.

Gorepack . A maelific sorcerer casting on 3's with spell familiar would be very useful to hounds with cursed earth. Artefact gets you another roll on maelific. Good odds.

Too bad WB don't have access to the crimson slaughter artifact for summoning, that would make spamming sorcs somewhat viable, maby combine it with a rolling heretech for hellforged warpack/fist of the gods.

I actually hope that the leaked rules for WB are fake :/

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Gorepack . A maelific sorcerer casting on 3's with spell familiar would be very useful to hounds with cursed earth. Artefact gets you another roll on maelific. Good odds.

But they only get 3+ for conjurations.

Is it only conjurations? Ok that's a bit naff.


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Only see DPs being of any particular value then.

I am not sure if someone has mentioned this before, but using Oblits as troops for IW is a thing as far as I understand, although you can't get a transport you do get a lot of firepower on the table.

Yep, you could fill your troops with solo oblits in a cad. No marks but they do get ld9, 6++ and tankhunter for free. One of the best min CAD options indeed.

Also, iirc, havoks get tankhunter too. Tankhunter autocannons are gona be amazing vs intended targets. Also, there's no real need limiting yourself to decurion as it would only give stubborn. Which is nice and all but not mandatory. And on the other hand, you could get a bunch of obsec oblits wit htankhunter and 6+++. They'll be afraid of melta but that's what vsg is for. Technically, you could have a pretty neat army of solo oblits, havoks and DP, one of which can be 2+ re-rollable with 6+++ and IWND. What's not to like.

sushi2001 wrote:
I am not sure if someone has mentioned this before, but using Oblits as troops for IW is a thing as far as I understand, although you can't get a transport you do get a lot of firepower on the table.

I like it a lot. I miss the mark of nurgle, for sure. But it's very good.

What character to take with it is the question. Probably a sorcerer? I'm hoping the haywire relic will be worth it .

The haywire relic i'm not sure about. It only works in the enemy's shooting phase and by that time, he could easilly keep out of your 2d6 haywire radius if he's not a pod. Well, on the other hand, it could prove to be a hassle for knights. But if a knight has moved so close to you, he'd probably have trouble with all the tankhunter oblits hulking around - even without this one potential haywire hit.

Now an interesting thing. Bikers might actually choppier than spawns for world eaters. Though, a free 2d6 move is good for everyone. I'm not sure what's going to be better - khornate bikers or spawns. Bikers got a lot of free rules now. And they can still shoot.

Word Bearer Sorcerers can do something that a prince can't. They can be the best generic sorcerer in the game even if only in malefic. They can get an extra roll on table and the warlord trait can make them full on generic lvl 4 psykers. That means that a WB sorc can have 5/6 maelfic powers. And if that's something you are going for, kasyr lutien and summoning on a 3 + means that you can easily cast a 3 WC power on 4 dice. You're still gonna die to perils but you looks like a bad ass while you're at it lol.

Still, you can cast sacrifice reliably even on 1 dice with a lvl 1 sorcerer with spell familiar and tome, that's a ton cheaper than the equivalent prince and the heralds can do the summoning from there. If nothing else, it might take a few dice out of the deny pool.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Has anyone with better understanding of rules and interactions weighed in on the Alpha Legion Detachment bonus?

1.) It provides the cultists with the ability to on a 4+ roll, join ongoing reserves.
2.) Lost and the Damned formation gives the exact same benefit, but from a different source.

Do these stack? Would you get two 4+ chances? Could you get 2 units from 1? Etc.

Very head of the hydra themey: cut off one head (cultist unit) and two more come back (maybe)!

I know some people are lamenting IWs but I think they are probably the best CAD candidate of any of the legions. Not just for obliterator troops but also due to the special rules and make them an easy detachment to take as a solo or secondary force

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Roknar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Just an FYI, the AL cultist bonus stacks on top of the detatchment bonus. So, conceivably, it it 2 units of cultists on two 4+ rolls.

Source?

http://pro.bols.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/traitor-AL-det.jpg

The rule is not redundant with the lost and the damned, it stacks. It is a completely different rule. One is a command bonus, the other is a core detatchment rule. One gets outflank, the other doesn't. Read them carefully, and apply RAW logic.

Add typhus to a cad and you have multiplying zombies if you roll well.

Hmm, yea I would have to agree. Seriously doubt that RAI but so is the rule doing nothing so *shrug*.

As for the black legion key speartip, Instead of a TAF it might be better to take a CAD with two termicides, that frees a few points and gives you at least SOME ObSec. Which can come down on any objective you might need. Loosing the anti interceptor might hurt though. On the plus side it allows for a fire raptor or psychic support. Or maybe a khorne errant knight.
Or on that note, maybe not go for full null deployment after all. Can't help but feel the speartip is kind of wasted though with having to wait until turn 2 for the key and the less deepstrike you bring the less it adds.
At the same time Turn 1 would be great with 2+ reserves, but then you scatter all over the place because the key is pointless and you need a cad which doesn't come in on turn 1.

For WE it's a bit riskier to use the key, but their warband is at least ObSec and you wouldn't be wasting your decurion bonus.

Riskier in sense that they can be killed? Yep, it's true. Khorne ain't about durability.

Well, allying them with night lords makes khornates somewhat more durable due to guaranteed 1-st turn nightfight. 3+ jink bikers, spawns with 4+ covers, 3+ in ruins.

I'll try it out and say how it goes. I'm desperate to make night lords - my favorite legion - work, lol. Even if it takes just a small force. Their thing is fear. But fear is so underwhelming in current meta. I can't remember a game in the last couple years where anybody except my orks failed a fear check and it meant something other than an allready obvious outcome - like in case of one sister vs a bunch of spawns or a couple tau fire warriors vs raptors.

 koooaei wrote:
Riskier in sense that they can be killed? Yep, it's true. Khorne ain't about durability.

Well, allying them with night lords makes khornates somewhat more durable due to guaranteed 1-st turn nightfight. 3+ jink bikers, spawns with 4+ covers, 3+ in ruins.

I'll try it out and say how it goes. I'm desperate to make night lords - my favorite legion - work, lol. Even if it takes just a small force. Their thing is fear. But fear is so underwhelming in current meta. I can't remember a game in the last couple years where anybody except my orks failed a fear check and it meant something other than an allready obvious outcome - like in case of one sister vs a bunch of spawns or a couple tau fire warriors vs raptors.

A bit riskier in that you're more reliant on the opponents deployment and more vulnerable to being seized. Both rely on two rolls of 2d6, charge+ free move or charge + scatter, but scatter can at least be ignored on a hit. And the talon lord can charge anywhere on the board.

Khorne is actually more durable*. At least as long as you take juggernauts. They add +1 wound over taking a bike, and the attack, but yea, then you don't get the 3+ jink. On the other hand they have move through cover and an extra wound, so if you can get them into terrain they have a 3+ cover save too.

*Be fun to see a deathguard lord on palanquin though. T5, fnp and with WT and gift they could end up with a whopping 7 wounds XD, juice up with spells and he could get eternal warrior and iwnd too

I had a few additional random thoughts:

Alpha Legion almost looks like it would do well running mass Bikrs. Take a Warband, minimum troop tax, run 3 or so Bike units, and 4 or so solo Bike Lords, and bum-rush your opponent. Turn 1 Shrouded grants a 2+ Jink, and you can be aggressive spamming Personal Warlord traits aiming for melee shenanigans, knowing anytime your Lord is slain, another Bike Champ can take up the reins.

I imagine that an upcoming FAQ will prohibit mixing Legion tactics in the same unit similar to how mix-and-matching chapters disables all Chapter Tactics, but even without such tactics, you can still ally in some Slaaneshi Bikers for the fun of it, and stick your Warband's Lord with a Mindveil in said unit.

If mixed Legion units become a thing though, DG Bikers would be an even better anvil.

I imagine the Word Bearers detachment is for those that are transitioning from a basic Black Crusade army from Traitor's Hate. Getting a turn of +d6 Warp Charge is a bargain for 15 points, and most of the Warlord table looks pretty handy too. I imagine that you can run your Sorcerer with a Palanquin and have it carried by Cultists as a warshrine of a sort, and 3 of the 6 traits would be very beneficial. +1 ML, buffing others, or shifting Boon results by +-1 are all very attractive propositions. 2 of them are variations of Fearless/Zealot, and one...is a Gift of Mutation.

Still, with Favored Scions and the free Boon each turn, the ability to shift Boon rolls by +-1 can add up quickly, and ramp up the chances of getting some really nice mini-champs or Princes, and the ability to grant Relentless/Fearless/Counterattack/Furious Charge to any nearby friendly unit has its utility too. Furious Charge Spawn sounds like a fun way to smash up a Metal box or two, and then Fearless Cultists are always a fun tarpit.

Overall, I still feel 1k Sons got the short end of the stick yet again.